Documenting Ireland's cycle lanes

monument

monument wrote: »

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Have to say I've never found that area too bad, but then I'm always in Lane 3 going right up the North Quays. I always take the lane and have never had any difficulties there.

I saw that DCC have put up a self service portal for reporting problems with cycle tracks: https://dcciservices.dublincity.ie/

(Dublin Cycling Campaign on my facebook highlighted me to this!)

BostonB

I use D'Olier Street a little bit, and I'd have to say its not for the faint hearted. You have to dominate the lane and keep the speed up.

davearthurs

"Splinting the lane" is what Americans call it, and there it is illegal. It also happens to be less safe. DON'T try to ride on the lines between lanes

No I wasn't suggesting the red lane was 'on the line' so to speak but a whole new bike lane like here:



But they could just colour the 2nd lane red to help guide bikes to that lane and make cars and buses more aware of the shared space. To be honest the buses are the biggest problem as you can be really unlucky and get them pulling in and out recklessly, up to 5 in a row sometimes.

I wonder why they haven't considered removing some of the Bus stops on the street or pushing them further down the end of the street as opposed to filling the whole street with a whole row of bus stops one after the other. It's almost a bus station at this stage.

tomasrojo

This is turning out to be a bit of a dialogue of the deaf. Perhaps I'm rather too entrenched in my opintions, but I don't see cycle lanes adding anything to Westmoreland street. The street is only safely navigable by vehicular cycling (which, whether they know it or not, is how cyclists generally negotiate that street), or by a fundamental redesign of the traffic flow. Adding a cycle lane doesn't help. You'd probably need proper segregation and a separate light system for cyclists, and an island at the end to help cyclists turning right. And, as you mention, doing something about the the grouping together of all the bus stops.

That's a two-lane situation you've shown there in your image, rather than a five-lane situation. It's a much simpler scenario, with far more limited lane-changing by motroists.

Even there, I really don't think that cycle lane adds much anyway. As I said before, cycle lanes in Ireland state that cyclists won't be sharing the lane, and that's a perfect example. For convenience and safety when turning right, the cyclist should be in the middle of the right lane, not off to one side of the lane.

Think about why cyclists need to be guided to the second lane. I know it's the leftmost straight-ahead lane, but it's already been mentioned that some cyclists need to be in the fourth lane or thereabouts. With what you propose, cyclists can't use the other lanes, as the law currently stands.

There is very little strong evidence that cycle lanes make motorists more aware of cyclists. This purports to be a fair appraisal of what evidence there is:
http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html

BostonB

I'm not sure of the value of cycle lane somewhere like that, where you might need to be in any lane.

davearthurs

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/06/how-the-nyt-sees-bikes-on-broadway/

http://www.designnoted.com/2010/09/07/great-info-graphic-from-the-nyt-about-traffic-lanes-on-broadway/

Bunnyhopper

davearthurs wrote: »

So, if you're intending to cycle straight through that junction are you required to use a mandatory cycle lane that puts you to the right of the straight-ahead lane, or should you ignore the mandatory cycle lane and stay in the leftmost lane?

Also, how do you legally enter that mandatory cycle lane when, iirc, it's entirely bounded by a solid white line?

Of course, that assumes that it is mandatory, i.e., that the signage is correct, which it might or might not be.

The sort of illegible design you see around Dublin doesn't fill me with confidence that Westmoreland Street would be safer with cycle lanes added. I think the solution there is with the rider not the road. I wonder, would some sharrow markings on all the lanes help?

davearthurs

So, if you're intending to cycle straight through that junction are you required to use a mandatory cycle lane that puts you to the right of the straight-ahead lane, or should you ignore the mandatory cycle lane and stay in the leftmost lane?

No, It's just as it comes up to a big right turn and junction. It makes a lot of sense when you use it. If you are turning right it gives a nice lead-in for cars coming up behind as it is a fast road stretch. So you feel a lot safer.

http://www.bv.com.au/bike-futures/42039/

I still think given the high traffic, centrality and helpful width of Westmoreland street there is an opportunity there to develop a nice stretch of central safe cycling through the center of the city, especially for less experienced cyclists less used to dealing with buses etc.,

Bunnyhopper

davearthurs wrote: »

No, It's just as it comes up to a big right turn and junction. It makes a lot of sense when you use it. If you are turning right it gives a nice lead-in for cars coming up behind as it is a fast road stretch. So you feel a lot safer.

I can of course see that it would be useful if you're turning right, however, if it's a mandatory lane then you must use it (even if you're going straight). Being required to use it when you're going straight through the junction doesn't make any sense, but then nonsense is a major design feature of many cycle 'facilities' around Dublin.

davearthurs wrote: »

I still think given the high traffic, centrality and helpful width of Westmoreland street there is an opportunity there to develop a nice stretch of central safe cycling through the center of the city, especially for less experienced cyclists less used to dealing with buses etc.,

Yes, Westmoreland Street should be part of a good, central cycle route, but a cycle lane is not the answer, particularly the separated kerbside sort you've linked to. That's for all the reasons that tomasrojo has already outlined several times in this thread.

BostonB

Still safer to go center lane and command the lane IMO.

tomasrojo

I'd be very interested to see whether anyone knows of a similar street in the Netherlands or Denmark and to see an effective segregated solution from there, if any.

I'm sorry to say that any segregated solution attempted by our road engineers would almost certainly be worse than the current situation. Segregation can be done well, but in countries that have expertise and binding standards. We have neither.

At the least, I can see that going straight on would take a lot longer, and turning right would involve becoming a pedestrian and going through at least one maybe two sets of pedestrian lights. If one is particularly nervous, one can already take this option. Go up the left side, dismount, lift one's bike up onto the footpath and walk the rest of the way using the pedestrian lights. I do this myself at a small number of junctions.


With the type of facilities typically implemented here, you might never be legally able to go straight on during rush hour as a cyclist, since the practice here is to give right of way to motorised traffic. The only gap in the left-turning motorised traffic at rush hour to let you go straight ahead would come when the pedestrian light on the top left of the street went green.

A total re-design might avoid all of these pitfalls, but it looks to me (and I'm very willing to be proven wrong) that a simple addition of a cycle lane would make the street less navigable by cyclists, while giving novices a false sense of security.

The second of these is more serious than you might think, since wariness is a cyclist's friend, especially in situations where you have a lot of left-turning heavy traffic, which is exactly the situation on Westmoreland Street. At least 70% of urban cyclist deaths are due to left-turning heavy vehicles.

tomasrojo

tomasrojo wrote: »

At least 70% of urban cyclist deaths are due to left-turning heavy vehicles.

+1 I've seen many cyclists squeezing through narrow gaps on the left of trucks and busses, seemingly oblivious of what might happen if the truck/bus were to turn left.

davearthurs

Well it's high time they made a decision on what their system really is as all the cycle lanes that were put down a few years ago are disintergrated to such an extent they are barely there.

They should either clean them off the road entirely or make it clear what the system is. At the moment it is a mess.

If they do put down a cycle lane it should have been a given that the key thing is the maintenance of that lane in an ongoing way. There are ones near portobello going into the city from rathmines at the moment that have been dug up so many times and put back poorly they are untraversable.

All their red traffic bumps have really badly disintergrated. I believe they were to fix these early in the year but many are still not repaired.

BostonB

I didn't really think vibration was really a big issue for people. I'm open to correction. My biggest problem with cycle lanes is they way they stop/start with no logic. Your survey crashed out at the end. I was using chrome. Does it work with all browsers.

Blowfish

BostonB wrote: »

I didn't really think vibration was really a big issue for people. I'm open to correction. My biggest problem with cycle lanes is they way they stop/start with no logic.

Indeed, the fact that the layouts completely ignore best practice is the biggest issue. Whomever is designing the layout of cycle lanes clearly has never actually cycled in their life.

tomasrojo

What happened to the post with the cycle lane survey?

BostonB

tomasrojo wrote: »

What happened to the post with the cycle lane survey?

He seems to have deleted it for some reason.

Beasty

tomasrojo wrote: »

What happened to the post with the cycle lane survey?

Such surveys are not allowed and the post has been deleted

tomasrojo

Beasty wrote: »

Such surveys are not allowed and the post has been deleted

I did not know that.

p15574

Just on the vibration issue, I recently got a helmetCam (of sorts) and was surprised on watching some footage at how shaky it all is, with the constant vibration and potholes etc. Shouldn't have been a surprise, I suppose.

SHOVELLER

I know the cycle lane on Wilton Terrace is not completely finished but it is incredible how pedestrians think it is for them.

Seaswimmer

SHOVELLER wrote: »

I know the cycle lane on Wilton Terrace is not completely finished but it is incredible how pedestrians think it is for them.

I presume until it is marked out and "legal" that anyone can walk,cycle, rollerblade, or jog on it. It look impressive along that stretch i must say. Does anyone have a link to a map/diagram of the entire route?

BostonB

Theres a savage camber on it. I thought they might correct it, when they dug it up.

SHOVELLER

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I presume until it is marked out and "legal" that anyone can walk,cycle, rollerblade, or jog on it. It look impressive along that stretch i must say. Does anyone have a link to a map/diagram of the entire route?

Oh undoubtedly but even when it is finished there will be still be people walking on it. The Phoenix Park is an example. I gave up cycling in the cycle lane there due to the sheer numbers walking on it despite it being clearly signposted.

Camber?

Doctor Bob

SHOVELLER wrote: »

I know the cycle lane on Wilton Terrace is not completely finished but it is incredible how pedestrians think it is for them.

Don't forget the vans that have taken to parking there for the food stalls.

There's a section between the lock and Baggot Street Bridge where the towpath is quite secluded, so pedestrians on the canal bank may well be tempted, quite understandably, to use it.

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Does anyone have a link to a map/diagram of the entire route?

Previous thread here, but I don't know if the link is still live.

The route pretty much folows the roads inside the canal, between Portobello College and Grand Canal Street, after which it runs up to Grand Canal Square then over the Beckett Bridge. After that, I'm not sure, as the locals around West Road scuppered the Part VIII planning procedure in that neighbourhood.

Can't say I've noticed a camber on the Wilton stretch, and I cycle beside it every day. I'll check tomorrow.

At one point, it looked like the workmen were about to lay that horrendous beige corduroy paving at the pedestrian crossing point beside the lock, but it seems to have been removed. Pity they couldn't take some manhole covers while they were at it.

monument

Images of the route from the other day are here. The issues mentioned above re Wilton Terrace is clear from the pics compared to elsewhere with a footpath next to it.

Also here's the story why this route will not be linked to Fairview from the start.

tomasrojo

monument wrote: »

Also here's the story why this route will not be linked to Fairview from the start.

Cllr Naoise Ó Muirí (Fine Gael) said that the plans for the cycle route in the East Wall area were “withdrawn by City Council officials because of intensive pressure / lobbying by East Wall residents and some of their “local” politicians. In my view this is a short-sighted decision. DCC officials certainly didn’t cover themselves in glory on this occasion but the rationale for the strident opposition from within East Wall seemed pretty flimsy at best.”

Not what we've come to expect from FG councillors. Fair play.

tomasrojo

The East Wall residents' objections is reminiscent of the opposition to the cycle lanes in New York at the moment.

I'm not much of a fan of segregated infrastructure (possibly due to lack of exposure to good stuff), but I'm also not much of a fan of cycling on the East Wall road as it's currently designed.

I quite like the look of the infrastructure so far, based on the photos in monument's article.

tomasrojo

This objection also highlights another downside to high car ownership (as opposed to the downsides of mass driving): the amount of public space given over to storing them when not in use.

I do hope that car-share schemes take off in urban Ireland and remove the need (perceived or real) for so many second and third cars in households.

AstraMonti

Sorry haven't read the whole thread, but did anyone notice what incredibly rediculous thing they did in the new part of the road after Sandyford Luas?

So after the Luas stop a cycle lane begins and 40m later it ends while you are on the pavement with nowhere to go! On your left is the Luas lines and on the right a 3 lane road and in front of you, you have something like a barrier and a signpost saying end of cycling lane. Whoever designed that, and most importantly whoever approved it need to go to jail for spending public money retardedly. It's dangerous!