M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

Chris_533976

Ok there isnt a thread yet for this much needed scheme, so heres one.

Apparently a decision on the CPO is due on the 7th November. Yes, a Galway paper has reported this, so take it with a pinch of salt.

A decision on the Galway City Outer Bypass is expected this Friday, 7 November.

The eagerly awaited decision from An Bord Pleanála has been held up repeatedly for a number of reasons, most recently the mandatory translation into Irish of the planning authority's order.

According to a spokesman for An Bord Pleanála, the Galway City Outer Bypass is "one of the most complex projects" the board has on its books at the moment.

"This is a complex case and there's a lot involved. It's a very technical order and that's time consuming to translate. This isn't the first time this has happened; it often does in Gaeltacht areas. Because the Irish version is also a legal document, we have to be satisfied with it legally," he explained.

Galway Chamber, IBEC West and a number of local representatives, including Frank Fahey, have been supportive of the bypass in the past, but it's now uncertain whether Government funding will be available to complete it due to Budget cutbacks.

http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/bypass-decision-by-friday/

Yes, with the cutbacks who knows whats going to happen to this. However, it wasnt specifically on the chop list. Will it be a tolled PPP? Who knows. Being as close as it is (~50km) from the Cappaghtaggle toll on the M6 to Dublin and being that it'll be the 3rd Dublin - Galway toll I doubt it.

Who knows. All will be revealed I'm sure. What we do know is that this is fairly high on the 'NRA list of priorities'.

ohnoigotsick

think if they tolled it no one would use it

BluntGuy

This isn't the same paper that reported that the 'next phase of the Gort to Crusheen scheme is set to begin' I hope...

I'd would've expected them to have a headline like 'Galway Bypass about to get underway in three years time'...

Anyway, the GB isn't part of the main Dublin-Galway route. It certainly isn't going to be motorway standard, as I've seen a few at-grade roundabouts on it (shorted-sighted perhaps?)...

Chris_533976

Plan is to have it grade separated from the Dublin Road to the Western Distributer Link road (new roundabout), then single carriageway (I think) from that roundabout to a new roundabout to the west of Barna.

That'll do it I think. The biggest thing about this scheme is that you'll be able to get round Galway without ploughing through it.

Dunno why is really isnt classed as Dublin - Galway... I've always wondered why this isnt part of T21 and yet the Limerick Tunnel is?

nordydan

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Plan is to have it grade separated from the Dublin Road to the Western Distributer Link road (new roundabout), then single carriageway (I think) from that roundabout to a new roundabout to the west of Barna.

That'll do it I think. The biggest thing about this scheme is that you'll be able to get round Galway without ploughing through it.

Dunno why is really isnt classed as Dublin - Galway... I've always wondered why this isnt part of T21 and yet the Limerick Tunnel is?

I think its HQDC to the Western Distributer Link road, and DC afterwards (like at Greystones/Waterford orbital etc.) It has junction numbers, so it will probably be motorway.

Poster King

Tolling this road would be crazy, especially as it has so many junctions. to catch everyone using it you'd have to have several toll booths. If they toll it it will probably be just for those using the new Corrib Bridge I'd imagine, but again I say, tolling by-passes of towns is crazy i.e. M50.
I have little problem with tolling inter urban motorways as there are viable alternatives - i.e. the old National Primary Routes.

serfboard

Poster King wrote: »

Tolling this road would be crazy, especially as it has so many junctions. to catch everyone using it you'd have to have several toll booths.

Don't think so. In fact ...

Poster King wrote: »

If they toll it it will probably be just for those using the new Corrib Bridge I'd imagine

I think you're right here. The bridge is the catch all, though for those who want to avoid what will be big traffic jams at the Galway Clinic, they may go as far as the Headford Road (oh what fun we'll have then).

Of course, there is no access onto the old Tuam road, nor the Monivea Road. This means that people coming from East of Galway City, and working in Ballybrit/Parkmore, where the biggest single concentration of employment is, will have no option but to come off at the Galway Clinic anyway. In fact, thinking more about it, those coming from West of Galway City to Ballybrit will see no advantage to the GCOB either, since they'll have to come off at, at best, the Headford Road and will still get stuck in traffic then anyway.

Poster King wrote: »

but again I say, tolling by-passes of towns is crazy i.e. M50.

You may think it's crazy, and I may agree with you, but no one with the power to do anything is asking for opinions, or are likely to take any heed of them should they be expressed. In fact, the M50 and the Shannon Tunnel show the precedent which suggests that the bridge may indeed be tolled (whether barrier-free or otherwise).

Poster King wrote: »

I have little problem with tolling inter urban motorways as there are viable alternatives - i.e. the old National Primary Routes.

There will be an alternative to the bypass which is to stay on the same roads as they are. This then brings up the question as to how much you value a frustration-reduced journey. If you value it enough to pay the toll, then pay the toll you will. However, as I said above, I don't think it will make a difference for the majority of Galway commuters anyway, having no access to Ballybrit/Parkmore.

Nor, veering way off-topic, and for the same reason, will the Western Rail Corridor either. Proper bus transport is the only solution.

rekrow

Looks like it is back to the drawing board for the GCOB. According to this article in the Galway Independent part of the road has been refused planning permission by An Bord Pleanála.

http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/bypass-blocked/

Personally I think this is going to make Galway a no go zone for the next 10 years. We can look forward to hearing that the traffic is backing up at the Doughiska roundabout for the coming years. I know even if it was approved there is little chance of it taking off in the current climate but at least if it was approved the plans would be on the shelf ready to go when thing do pick up.

The only positive is that the road did get planning permission for approximately half the route. This is from the end of the current N6 scheme as far as the N59.

serfboard

Don't worry about it - Frank Fahey is going to sort it all out

rekrow

serfboard wrote: »

Don't worry about it - Frank Fahey is going to sort it all out

to be honest I'd say he's a bit relieved. At least there is someone else to blame rather than the government when the road isn't built. If it is the rare protected habitat that they say it is why did they even try and route the road through here. It is amazing that there were so many houses built in this area over the last 10 years if it is so special. Ah well.

Sponge Bob

Frank has already 'urged' the NRA to announce they will build the approved portion forthwith. How they laughed at Frankeen , but they might announce it all the same

Frank always knew that the NRA always wanted to terminate the N6 Galway Bypass precisely where the ABP permission terminates.

That is at the N59 .

The remainder of the Galway Bypass + the proposed new R336 Barna - Rossaveal road is then to be rolled in together into a new super R336 project ...which has two chances of ever happening in my opinion .

There is another even larger wedge of the self same bog cotton around Spiddle :cool: somewhere together with some rare lichens and whatnots .

Amtmann

Irish Times piece on the rejection here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1204/1228337391015.html

Sponge Bob

My My My . O Cuiv 'urged' the same thing Frank did

From that IT piece

Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Éamon Ó Cuív said the decision was "regrettable" but he urged that work begin as soon as possible on the stretch east of the river and that the National Roads Authority and Galway city and county councils meet to find an alternative route west of the Corrib.

That is the end of the stretch between the N59 and Furbo so . Gormley will never collude in sending a road through a priority habitat !

KevR

rekrow wrote: »

We can look forward to hearing that the traffic is backing up at the Doughiska roundabout for the coming years.

What are the chances of the NRA looking into putting a better junction in place at Doughiska where the M6 will join the existing N6 DC?

That RAB was only supposed to be a temporary terminating point from the M6 from Dublin until such time as the Bypass was built. Seeing as the Bypass won't be built I think they should reconsider this junction. It's not too late, they have started work on it yet..

Irish and Proud

rekrow wrote: »

The only positive is that the road did get planning permission for approximately half the route. This is from the end of the current N6 scheme as far as the N59.

...useless!!! IMO

Without the Western section, I don't think there's any point in doing the Eastern section as it will lead to nowhere basically, unless the N84 Headford Road is more important than I thought.

There's only one thing for it IMO, block all future building West of the Corrib and gradually retract the urban area there, especially from around the current ring road - the present S4 Corrib bridge such suffice in light of a decline in the West of Galway City. Given that Oranmore is already an isolated suburb, why not expand Galway City Eastwards to same instead, bringing it closer to the AWC etc. Also, there should be ample opportunity to provide for rapid transit such as the GLUAS etc, and without the disruption.

Now, about the planners/councillors in charge of the recent development around the city - heads should roll!!! :mad:

Regards!

Carawaystick

Ah now, sher they were too busy supplying poisonous drinking water and no heads rolled, poor planning is a wee bit less likely to get heads rolling....

the junction at Douiskea needs to be upgraded alright, I'd imagine it could be done on the cheap, by having freeflow left turn slips on and off the new M6 outside the roundabout on the eastern side of the junction, and having the left lane northbound on the existing N6 physically separated from the roundabout.

of course it should be built as a full free flow gsj from the beginning.

KevR

The last thing Galway needs is another ****ing roundabout!

I think it has always been in the plan to have free flow left turn slips on and off the M6 either side of the roundabout.

In addition to the free flow left turning slips, I was thinking something along the lines of elevating a very small section (ie - just a simple overbridge that one lane could pass under) of the Southbound N6 carriageway and then you could have a lane from Westbound M6 going under this overbridge and merging onto the Northbound carriageway of the N6 from the right hand side. This would mean all movements for people coming down from Dublin would be free flow.
Obviously if you're going Northbound on the N6 there would be no way of making a right turn onto the M6 (with there being no roundabout and all) but the next RAB is not far at all so you could easily double back and use the free flow left turn slip from the Southbound N6. I don't think there would be huge volumes wanting to go from Northbound N6 to Eastbound M6 so this wouldn't be a huge problem and would be a much better than having a new RAB at Doughiska.

Or ideally they could make it fully free flow by having the overbridge on S'Bound N6 that I stated above and having a flyover coming from N'Bound N6 over to Eastbound M6.

One overbridge for partial free flow.
One overbridge and a flyover for full free flow.

Not a huge deal of extra work involved in either of those options, and it would definetly be worth the extra effort in the long run in my opinion.

Not that I'll be holding my breath at all for that to happen. Unfortunatly, I still fully expect to see a roundabout built there.

serfboard

Irish and Proud wrote: »

There's only one thing for it IMO, block all future building West of the Corrib and gradually retract the urban area there, especially from around the current ring road - the present S4 Corrib bridge such suffice in light of a decline in the West of Galway City. Given that Oranmore is already an isolated suburb, why not expand Galway City Eastwards to same instead, bringing it closer to the AWC etc.

Agreed. They're "sort of" doing this already in giving planning in areas like Doughiska and around Merlin Park.

However, that's long-term and won't solve the current traffic problems. So,

1. Dual the Western Distributor Road (should have been done from the start).
2. Dual Seamus Quirke/Bishop O'Donnell Road from the roundabout on (there are plans for this already)
3. Make the left-lane on both sides bus only.
4. Provide a million (sorry, slight exaggeration ) buses in the morning going from where people live (Knocknacarra) to where people work (Ballybrit). After all, 87% of Quincentennial bridge traffic is commuter traffic (Bord Pleanala report).

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Now, about the planners/councillors in charge of the recent development around the city - heads should roll!!! :mad:

1. Zone Industrial area on one side of a river.
2. Zone Residential area on another side of the river.
3. Provide insufficient public transport for people to get from home to work.

Result: Only usable bridge gets jammed up with cars.

Conclusion: How did that happen? We never saw that coming?!?

I don't blame the planners, though. I've often thought it must be one of the most frustrating jobs in this country. You go to college and learn all about proper planning and sustainable development. Then you get a job in a city/county council and every sustainable project you propose gets shanghai'ed by local councillors keen to enrich their buddies.

Wonder what stress levels/early death rates/tranquiliser-taking rates are like for Irish planners?

rekrow

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...useless!!! IMO

Without the Western section, I don't think there's any point in doing the Eastern section as it will lead to nowhere basically, unless the N84 Headford Road is more important than I thought.

There's only one thing for it IMO, block all future building West of the Corrib and gradually retract the urban area there, especially from around the current ring road - the present S4 Corrib bridge such suffice in light of a decline in the West of Galway City. Given that Oranmore is already an isolated suburb, why not expand Galway City Eastwards to same instead, bringing it closer to the AWC etc. Also, there should be ample opportunity to provide for rapid transit such as the GLUAS etc, and without the disruption.

Now, about the planners/councillors in charge of the recent development around the city - heads should roll!!! :mad:

Regards!

I agree that the end game needs to be a complete bypass around the city. Facing the reality that any redesign work is going to set the project back two years minimum, the point I was making is that 3 grade separated junctions at Doughiska, Headford road, and Moycullen rd would disperse the traffic to the city better that a single at grade roundabout. It is not the importance of the Headford and Moycullen roads but the ability to disperse traffic around the city. Personally I think the biggest flaw in the route design was not that they ran it through field of bog cotton, but rather that they did not put a junction at the Tuam road.

I don't know how councillors came up with the development plan for Galway. Most major industrial parks, shopping centres, facilities on the east side of the city and most residential development in the last 10 years on the west. and leave the whole thing to fall on it's face. You don't need 20/20 to see the flaw in that design! At least with the bit that is approved there would be a third river crossing.

Chris_533976

This is one project that needs to be done (almost) regardless to the environmental issues. Given where Galway is, its almost impossible to build a road around it without problems like this. Its an absolute disaster that this isnt going to be built in full. And I hope NOTHING gets built rather than a half arsed version. The bottlenecks that are there at the moment (Tuam Rd roundabout, Headford Rd roundabout, Bishop O Donnell Road) will all get much worse than they are already.

I realise there were a lot of issues with this, but think of it this way. The Western Distributor Extension was dumped on the grounds that it would pass through Tournabrocky Bog. If Mr Developer had wanted to build more Knocknacarra sprawl in the same place, would they have been allowed to? Bet they would.

Amtmann

From today's Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1218/1229523050552.html

KevR

I would like to see them build the section that has been approved....ASAP.

It would disperse traffic entering the City better. By that I mean it would offer the option of avoiding the aweful planned at-grade roundabout in Doughiska if you're coming into Galway on the M6. And it would give an alternative/additional route over the Corrib.

I think if they start building the section that has been approved then they will be more likely to put the effort into finding an alternative Western section. If they aren't arsed building the section that has been approved then they have no notion of looking into the other section.

Am I right in saying the M50 was done similarly - in sections because of planning problems? Better to get it started than leaving it IMO.

dowlingm

The only problem with that approach is it means huge traffic queues at the junction with the unfinished parts, like you saw in Dundalk at the end of the M1.

KevR

dowlingm wrote: »

The only problem with that approach is it means huge traffic queues at the junction with the unfinished parts, like you saw in Dundalk at the end of the M1.

True, there would be queues at the last finished junction on the bypass but I don't think these would be anywhere near as bad as the queues that we'll have at the end of the M6 from Dublin if the bypass doesn't get built. Also, it can't be as bad as the horrific delays on the current N6 across the City. I think that the approved section bypass alone would reduce these delays a lot (a complete bypass would eliminate delays).

Sponge Bob

We are only going back to 2005 so !

From the EIS statement on the Bypass.

"Galway County Council confirmed in February 2005 that N6 GCOB East and the R336
Western Approach Link (usually referred to at this time as N6 GCOB West) were to
become one scheme"

The stretch south and west of the N59 was a separate scheme until 2005 and was , strictly speaking, a Regional Road not a National Road at all .

Both Moycullen and Barna have about 15,000 car movements a day on their east sides but the Knocknacarra traffic then joins the Barna traffic ( mainly) which adds to that Barna traffic.

Chris_533976

I dread to imagine the chaos at the UCHG roundabout and Bishop O Donnell road if this half assed scheme goes ahead. Bishop O Donnel road is about 40k per day or something stupid like that for an urban, at grade, S2.

Sponge Bob

It's going to D2 next year Chris in fairness !

Chris_533976

Has that been confirmed? I havent heard anything at all about it.

Sponge Bob

Well the bulk of the funding is due in 2009 and the bulk of that funding is in the form of a grant to put in bus lanes so the D2 will be actually C2+B2 if you see what I mean .

The Newcastle Road in Lucan was done the same way this year.

dubhthach

The original "Bypass" was built in sections, I don't see why the outer bypass can't be done likewise. I know it isn't idea. However given the growth of traffic on the current road it's going to be a disaster in 2years when the M6 ends in another fscking roundabout at Doughuisce.

I use to work up beside HP 2years ago and use to take me 40minutes to get from there to Salthill in the evening my auld lad who works in Lisbaun reckons it takes an hour these days to get home in the evening.

Chris_533976

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Well the bulk of the funding is due in 2009 and the bulk of that funding is in the form of a grant to put in bus lanes so the D2 will be actually C2+B2 if you see what I mean .

The Newcastle Road in Lucan was done the same way this year.

Yeah originally it was supposed to be D2AP with roundabouts. Its gotten scaled back to S2 with Buslanes in a sense, with some of the roundabouts scrapped in favour of traffic lights.

Translation: No realistic increase in capacity. Stunning lack of planning given how much of an arterial route that road is.

Chris_533976

Heres some more tripe curtosy of the Advertiser and their readership

Dear Editor,

When I read that the by-pass of Galway was a thing of the past I was happy! Somebody had the backbone to make an unpopular decision and hopefully will stick with it. It's not that I wouldn't like the cars to be off the road through the city. Just the opposite.

I'm a cyclist and the way some people are driving here is downright dangerous for a cyclist. I've been cycling all my life in all parts of the world, but it's definitely the worst here as I've been hit twice this year alone! And that despite wearing a high visibility vest and all kinds of gimmicks. Cycle paths and a bit more concentration on the part of the car drivers in this city would be great, thank you. But that's a by line.

About the by-pass. The rejection to build it is not a sign of being backwards but a sign of being sensible and smart. More roads attract more traffic as every study shows. To want to build more roads is actually very backward thinking, a kind of thinking that has dominated the 70s and 80s and I thought we got past that in the meantime. So whoever decided the end for the by-pass did his/her homework. Well done!

That the by-pass is not coming is a real chance to do something different. That money can and should be used for the light rail or a light tram. Last January I was in Montpellier, France. It is another university city and they have two tram lines. One from north to south, the other from west to east.

Why can't that be done here in Galway? It wouldn't cost that much more than building a road through areas where no roads should be built anyway because of the soft underground which leads to a bumpy road in no time and more money wasted for repairs.

A light tram line from Oughterard to Oranmore and one from Spiddal or Barna to Briar Hill with a few stops in the centre of the city so people can change trams would take A LOT of traffic off the roads. The trams can run every 10 minutes during rush hour and everybody would be happy.

It could be done and it does work if somebody has the guts to finally get on with it. It takes initiative and good will on the side of everybody but it's a chance to show the rest of the country that Galway can be different and progressive. Galway is a great place to live and work, now let it become a place to be proud of when it comes to public transportation.

Yours,

M Hablützel,

Galway.

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/6362

Thats just about the most ill informed pile of gunk I've ever seen.

BluntGuy

I'm sorry, but I just had to laugh...

It's not that I wouldn't like the cars to be off the road through the city. Just the opposite.

Please explain what this means.

I'm a cyclist

Speaks volumes before we've even begun.

About the by-pass. The rejection to build it is not a sign of being backwards but a sign of being sensible and smart. More roads attract more traffic as every study shows. To want to build more roads is actually very backward thinking, a kind of thinking that has dominated the 70s and 80s and I thought we got past that in the meantime. So whoever decided the end for the by-pass did his/her homework. Well done!

I'm speechless honestly. More roads attract more traffic? What on Earth is this person talking about? Which studies are these? It isn't a case of building more roads, it's a case of replacing old roads which are virtually unusable for the amount of traffic they have.

And by the way, as "every study shows", more roads do not cause traffic to magically appear out of thin-air. NEW ROADS DISPLACE TRAFFIC FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER. There is generally no real net increase in traffic, and even if there is, the increase in traffic will be on the bypass so it won't affect the city streets.

Why can't that be done here in Galway? It wouldn't cost that much more than building a road through areas where no roads should be built anyway because of the soft underground which leads to a bumpy road in no time and more money wasted for repairs.

A light tram line from Oughterard to Oranmore and one from Spiddal or Barna to Briar Hill with a few stops in the centre of the city so people can change trams would take A LOT of traffic off the roads. The trams can run every 10 minutes during rush hour and everybody would be happy.

Oh please, nothing but hopeless optimism and unsubstantiated claims (rather like the government's plan for a "Smart Economy"). This sounds like somebody who swallowed the 200 million crap that's been floating around.

If the person stopped for one second to think about it logically then he/she wouldn't have been so quick to jump to a conclusion.

NOW THEN... this great tram line, where is going to be? The city streets of course. The city streets which are clogged with traffic. The city streets which are clogged with traffic that is going to destinations not served by the tram. I.E A bunch of people who aren't going to be using the new tram system. I have no doubt that a significant chunk of Galway city traffic would be removed by the tram system. But the city will still be clogged up, a situation only made worse by the lack of available road space due to the tram lines.

So, which plan makes sense? This guy goes on as if the tram line can be an instant reality. Fallacy of course. It'll take at least another 3 years to carry out constraints studys, draw up the EIS, work out the exact costs, what land will have to be CPO'd, hold public consultations. The bypass however could've been a reality, maybe not next year, maybe not even 2010, but a hell of a lot sooner than a tramline option.

When I read that the by-pass of Galway was a thing of the past I was happy! Somebody had the backbone to make an unpopular decision and hopefully will stick with it.

Yes, it must feel fantastic knowing that a critical piece of infrastructure is now going to be thrown in the bin...

veryangryman

Bluntguy, your a blunt guy

KevR

dubhthach wrote: »

I use to work up beside HP 2years ago and use to take me 40minutes to get from there to Salthill in the evening my auld lad who works in Lisbaun reckons it takes an hour these days to get home in the evening.

I live in Westside and work in Ballybrit (usually start work at 6 in the evenings). I usually leave at 4:55pm and get to work at about 5:25pm (about 30 min journey). If I leave a 5:05pm it will easily take 45 mins and i'll be sitting in the car sweating on making it to work for 6 o clock (because of all the extra cars coming onto the roads when most people finish work at 5pm).

^ I don't even think it's a 5 mile journey so my average speed is less than 10mph. Crazy really on road with 2 lanes in each direction the whole way across - it's all the at-grade roundabouts that cause the problems.

RE: The letter in the Advertiser
I think BluntGuy covered everything really well. I just want to add that I often cycle for Galway and have never been hit by a car in all my years doing so. I don't know what that says about this letter writer when he/she has been hit twice in the past year alone. :rolleyes:

steve-o

BluntGuy wrote: »

I'm speechless honestly. More roads attract more traffic? What on Earth is this person talking about? Which studies are these? It isn't a case of building more roads, it's a case of replacing old roads which are virtually unusable for the amount of traffic they have.

I have no bones over the Galway scheme, but new/improved roads DO create more traffic. Google "transport induced demand" for details of various studies. The M50 and Dublin's sprawling commuter belt are prime examples.
The M50 and radial route improvements will only have short term benefits, though the economic downturn will also help

veryangryman

steve-o wrote: »

I have no bones over the Galway scheme, but new/improved roads DO create more traffic. Google "transport induced demand" for details of various studies. The M50 and Dublin's sprawling commuter belt are prime examples.
The M50 and radial route improvements will only have short term benefits, though the economic downturn will also help

Very true. The growth in population of places like Athlone/Mullingar has been largely due to the increased quality of life that their bypasses brings. This does add to traffic as the town stretches out towards Suburban areas. Urban sprawl is, i think the term for it

Dublin is an in-demand sardines can. If you can squeeze more traffic into it, then more people will try to squash in. I never understand why big cities are so popular to live/work in when there are alternatives available.

KevR

Even if the bypass does increase traffic in the area it will still reduce congestion and overall emissions/pollution in the city and inprove the quality of life for people living here. Not to mention it will make Galway a more attractive city to invest in.

^I think all this greatly outweighs any potential increases in traffic numbers.

dubhthach

steve-o wrote: »

I have no bones over the Galway scheme, but new/improved roads DO create more traffic. Google "transport induced demand" for details of various studies. The M50 and Dublin's sprawling commuter belt are prime examples.
The M50 and radial route improvements will only have short term benefits, though the economic downturn will also help

The real problem with Dublin is that the M50 was designed as a bypass however due to corruption in the planning process you got huge amount of urban sprawl built around. Ideally the whole area around it should have been green belt.

As a result of course it's basically an "inner relief road" due to all the development that was allowed in last 15years outside it.

BluntGuy

steve-o wrote: »

I have no bones over the Galway scheme, but new/improved roads DO create more traffic. Google "transport induced demand" for details of various studies. The M50 and Dublin's sprawling commuter belt are prime examples.

The M50 isn't really the best example because in the period it was built car-ownership rocketed which was the prime factor leading to an increase in traffic. The M50 was simply a dumping ground for all this traffic.

New roads DO, I'll acknowledge, encourage people to drive more. But they also get people from A to B, quicker, thus causing a net reduction in traffic in the area (because traffic can get quicker to its destination, it spends less time on the road). Very simple logic.

So while overall traffic may increase, traffic in individual bottlenecks such as this decreases because of the quicker mobility (i.e traffic is more evenly spread out because people spend less time in specific bottlenecks). Perhaps a better way to put this is to say that traffic-flows improve.

Dublin is an in-demand sardines can. If you can squeeze more traffic into it, then more people will try to squash in. I never understand why big cities are so popular to live/work in when there are alternatives available.

Dublin should therefore have the facilities to deal with its high density. High density is a great oppurtunity to justify new and innovative transport solutions...

That does not include you: "Metro" West...

Bluntguy, your a blunt guy

Thanks.

spacetweek

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Yeah originally it was supposed to be D2AP with roundabouts. Its gotten scaled back to S2 with Buslanes in a sense, with some of the roundabouts scrapped in favour of traffic lights.
Translation: No realistic increase in capacity. Stunning lack of planning given how much of an arterial route that road is.

What? Increasing from S2 to S2+Buslanes is a huge increase in capacity. You measure a road by how many people it carries, not vehicles. The possibility for a greatly expanded bus service along the route will increase its people carrying capacity hugely.

BluntGuy wrote: »

New roads DO, I'll acknowledge, encourage people to drive more. But they also get people from A to B, quicker, thus causing a net reduction in traffic in the area (because traffic can get quicker to its destination, it spends less time on the road). Very simple logic.

Not as simple as this.

Although the new road allows people to make their journey faster (removes bottlenecks), the problem is that people are more likely to make more trips than before - i.e. car use has gone up - so there is a net increase in total traffic. When the M50 upgrade is complete in Dublin, there will be a net increase in traffic there too due to the attractiveness of the expanded road (promise of reduced journey time - people who used not drive will now be encouraged to do so).


As for the Galway bypass, in a way the scaling back can be seen as a good thing. Galway should not be expanding westwards. There's no infrastructure there and the bulk of the city's services are at the far end (motorways, airport, railway). Building the N59-Barna section would simply encourage more car-dependent development in that whole area.

A clipped bypass running from the motorways in the east as far as the N59 will encourage all future development to be located to the east of Galway, in the vicinity of the airport and new Oranmore train station. More stations could be opened along the rail line here in the future.

As for existing development in the west, that quite simply should never have been allowed.

Chris_533976

spacetweek wrote: »

What? Increasing from S2 to S2+Buslanes is a huge increase in capacity. You measure a road by how many people it carries, not vehicles. The possibility for a greatly expanded bus service along the route will increase its people carrying capacity hugely.

In other countries yes. But this is Ireland, where the Bus Eireann buses travel along this road, loop the roundabout at the end and come back again, completely ignoring the 1000s of new houses. You also get City Direct Buses in Galway who run an HOURLY service WITH A LUNCH BREAK on one of their routes. (And yes, they use the words LUNCH BREAK on their timetables).

Yes, it will be MUCH better for buses etc and will do wonders for bus times. Unfortunately we will NOT, I guarantee, see any more services or any general improvement in services. I do worry that the bus stop poles on this road at the moment will be replaced by more bus stop poles. Lets not forget that one of the bus stops on this route has a timetable that is two years out of date.

Irish and Proud

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Heres some more tripe curtosy of the Advertiser and their readership



http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/6362

Thats just about the most ill informed pile of gunk I've ever seen.

The next person that says no roads, I'm not joking you... :mad:

Out with the 1990's where road building was seen as mortal sin!

Out with the 1970's where road building was the only way to do things!

Let's have rational and balanced transport policies maybe like Germany etc where extensive road and rapid transit systems are provided, and where the environment is top of the agenda. Yes, it can be done, but we have to make stark choices like ending priority for property in planning circles. If houses (many of which are unsustainable anyway) have to be knocked to make way to road (like infill widening schemes) or rapid transit projects (like the LUAS Green Line), then so be it. Maybe we shouldn't be building metros, but rather high quality LUAS lines that work, like the Green Line - anytime I'm on same, it seems to be well used all day - now that's sustainability! - well work sacrificing houses etc for! The advantage of LUAS over Metro is it's immediate accesibility and user friendliness!

Regards!

BluntGuy

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The next person that says no roads, I'm not joking you... :mad:

Out with the 1990's where road building was seen as mortal sin!

Out with the 1970's where road building was the only way to do things!

Let's have rational and balanced transport policies maybe like Germany etc where extensive road and rapid transit systems are provided, and where the environment is top of the agenda. Yes, it can be done, but we have to make stark choices like ending priority for property in planning circles. If houses (many of which are unsustainable anyway) have to be knocked to make way to road (like infill widening schemes) or rapid transit projects (like the LUAS Green Line), then so be it. Maybe we shouldn't be building metros, but rather high quality LUAS lines that work, like the Green Line - anytime I'm on same, it seems to be well used all day - now that's sustainability! - well work sacrificing houses etc for! The advantage of LUAS over Metro is it's immediate accesibility and user friendliness!

Regards!

I get what you're saying and I agree with your point about the Luas, sort of...

The problem with Luas, is even though it's accessible and user-friendly, it's only really suited to relatively short-distances and medium-density areas of the city. It would take too long to go from one side of Dublin to the other on a Luas (much quicker than car, mind you, but not quick enough for a rapid transit system). That is why projects like Metro North and Interconnector are needed. High capacity, high-speed transit links that get you from one major area to the next, with a network of buses and Luas lines to take you to your specific destination.

THAT is the way it should be done.

What do we have instead? A bus service where timetables may as well be used as toilet paper for the next dog who fouls the street, two Luas lines that don't connect together (they are not within walking distance for everyone) and quite a poor DART service.

Even if just one of MN or Interconnector went ahead (I'd recommend Interconnector), it would make a huge difference. Both are needed, yes. But at least one should be constructed within the planned timeframe.

I'd also recommend electrifying all commuter railines in the medium-term. This will expand our options for more carbon-friendly rail solutions in the future. Electric trains also have numerous other advantages I'm sure you're all aware of, that would enable a better service (and hence entice people to use services) in Cork, Galway and Limerick.

As for GLuas. Not happening before 2020, people shouldn't have unrealistic hopes. The bypass, in this particular case, is the much more practical solution at this point in time.

Irish and Proud

BluntGuy wrote: »

I get what you're saying and I agree with your point about the Luas, sort of...

The problem with Luas, is even though it's accessible and user-friendly, it's only really suited to relatively short-distances and medium-density areas of the city. It would take too long to go from one side of Dublin to the other on a Luas (much quicker than car, mind you, but not quick enough for a rapid transit system). That is why projects like Metro North and Interconnector are needed. High capacity, high-speed transit links that get you from one major area to the next, with a network of buses and Luas lines to take you to your specific destination.

THAT is the way it should be done.

What do we have instead? A bus service where timetables may as well be used as toilet paper for the next dog who fouls the street, two Luas lines that don't connect together (they are not within walking distance for everyone) and quite a poor DART service.

Even if just one of MN or Interconnector went ahead (I'd recommend Interconnector), it would make a huge difference. Both are needed, yes. But at least one should be constructed within the planned timeframe.

I'd also recommend electrifying all commuter railines in the medium-term. This will expand our options for more carbon-friendly rail solutions in the future. Electric trains also have numerous other advantages I'm sure you're all aware of, that would enable a better service (and hence entice people to use services) in Cork, Galway and Limerick.

As for GLuas. Not happening before 2020, people shouldn't have unrealistic hopes. The bypass, in this particular case, is the much more practical solution at this point in time.

...yeah, I see your point, but wouldn't the DART suffice for long distance commuting, especially if the inter-connector is built and the Dart extended to Balbriggan, Maynooth and Celbridge. Feeder bus and LRT/BRT links would greatly expand the catchment area. Mind you, the metro shouldn't be ruled out, but in the interim...

Regards, and Happy Christmas!!!

Chris_533976

Another letter in the Advertiser ->

http://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/6737

Dear Editor,

In response to several recent letters in these columns.The Galway City Outer Bypass has been a hot topic around the city for several years now but when I heard that the road had been rejected by An Bord Pleanala my heart sank. This critical piece of infrastructure that would finally relieve Galway of a good chunk of its traffic issues has been scaled back to a useless 'half bypass' that will drop all its traffic onto one of the city's worst black spots.

No-one will argue that Galway has a traffic problem, but everyone has different opinions about what to do about it. It is clear that Galway, as a city, cannot prosper without solving, or at least alleviating, its congestion issues. People need to work together and a plethora of short sighted bad decisions need to be investigated. A sensible transport plan must be instigated.

Case in Point: The N6/M6 from Dublin will terminate at a roundabout near the Galway Clinic. If the M18 (to Limerick) and M17 (to Tuam) ever get built, you will get traffic from all three destinations crashing to a halt at this roundabout. Traffic madness will result. Lets also not mention the insane routing of the M18 and especially the M17 - it WILL NOT solve the Claregalway issue. However, even Claregalway will pale in comparison to the chaos at the UCHG roundabout and Bishop O' Donnell Road if the 'half-bypass' gets built. Bishop O'Donnell road is massively over capacity. The root cause of this is twofold - lack of decent public transport and the fact that up to 35,000 cars a day travel down a road that effectively serves almost every housing estate west of the Corrib. This was caused by bad city planning, not magic, and the idle exhaust spewed out by waiting cars is more environmentally damaging than the Outer Bypass would be. Cars are at their most polluting when idle, not when travelling freely.

What people need to realise is that roads need to be part of an overall transport strategy, not the easy target to be axed in place of ill conceived public transport plans. People like their cars and will continue to drive them, but do you think everyone actually wants to be stuck at the Terryland roundabout in the evenings? No. I'm sure a lot of those motorists would take public transport if it was a reasonable option. The reasons the buses are underutilised in this city are numerous but can be easily solved. Case in point: Poles in the ground are not good enough in the Galway rain. Bus stops with two-year-out-of-date, incorrect timetables are not even remotely acceptable (Dunaras stop on the 5W service). Waiting 30 minutes for a bus with no idea if/when it will arrive is shameful.

In any case, GLUAS isn't the so-called magic solution that many respectable people think it is. It is a gigantic white elephant that must be stopped before a lot of money is wasted. Knocknacarra in particular is extremely low density due to atrocious free-for-all sprawl planning during the Boom, hence the reason that City Direct buses zigzag through all the estates in a long, painful, drawn out route-march.

It just isn’t suitable for a tram line, as the line is too far from sprawled houses. So let's protect the alignment but consign the GLUAS to the shelves for the foreseeable future. The biggest problem with GLUAS is that it's being pedalled as a cure-all solution when there hasn't been the slightest whisper of a joined up, forward thinking integrated transport plan for the whole of Galway. Everyone is ploughing ahead with their own agendas doing their own thing (or lack thereof) and no one is considering how anything might fit together to make it easy for the commuter. Case in point: GLUAS is proposed to be on the other side of Eyre Square to the bus station, resulting in an unnecessary walk in the rain. It should go right outside the bus station, not 300m away. There is also no tourist-friendly proposal for a line in Salthill or to the airport. Let’s also not mention that Bus Eireann has no routes to serve a large chunk of Knocknacarra and that there are only TWO buses per day to Galway Airport.

Here's what should happen in Galway. Firstly, the FULL Outer Bypass should be built and Bishop O' Donnell Road upgraded to dual carriageway. Bus Eireann should not be in control of city services, that should be given to Galway Bus, in the same vein as Dublin Bus. Massive increases in bus frequencies around the city should be next, with installation of more bus lanes where appropriate and the building of bus shelters at every bus-stop city wide with constantly updated, GPS backed, mapping of bus locations and 'NEXT BUS DUE IN xxxx MINUTES' monitors.

Dual track the railway to Athenry, with a new station at Oranmore and a commuter service to the former with P&R facilities at each. Build fully segregated bus P&Rs at strategic locations around the periphery of the city (and bypass) with 10 minute frequency travelling down dedicated, monitored bus lanes to a variety of city stops. Make Eyre Square, Eglinton Street and St Francis Street bus and taxi only zones to stop the current bus vs car-parking battles and properly redevelop the bus and railway stations.

Have peak time suburban shuttle bus services to satellite towns like Moycullen, Tuam and Spiddal. And either integrate the Coach Station and Bus Eireann stations or build a guided, covered walkway, between them. Why do we need the two anyway, it wouldn't happen elsewhere in Europe. In any case, the key is making buses ATTRACTIVE to commuters, not the half baked services that we currently have.

Most of this could be done for a fraction of the cost of the GLUAS, and will be massively more beneficial. What is needed more than anything though, is joined up thinking and integration of services, not the random, unplanned, nonsense that pervades transport and construction policy in this city (and indeed the whole of Ireland) at the moment.

However, NONE OF THIS should be done without adequate roads infrastructure and the Outer Bypass should be the first step in this. Roads aren't the overall solution, but are a key part of the overall picture. Ireland is still playing catch-up in the roads department and let's not mention that the Government originally told us the interurban motorways to Dublin would be finished in 2006. At this stage, the blackspots of Galway, Claregalway, New Ross, Adare, Abbeyleix, Limerick, Gort, Dunkettle and the Cork SRR SHOULD BE SOLVED. We've had an unprecedented economic boom and still no two major cities in Ireland are connected by a motorway. We still have at least a year to wait and now the boom is over.

Galway city should be a tourist mecca and the gateway to thewWest of Ireland. It's an embarrassment at the moment because it's so difficult to get through. By the looks of it, a trip to Cork on a future M18, Limerick Tunnel and M20 will take just over two hours. A trip from Dublin will take two hours. The last five miles to get across Galway will take a further hour.

Galway is at a crossroads. Do we languish in traffic chaos or do we actually do something about it.? Building the FULL bypass should be the first step in kick-starting Galway's development again. But let's not forget the depressing fact that if a developer were to propose a large housing estate in the Thonabrucky Bog, the main site of N6 environmental objections by An Bord Pleanala, I bet that local councillors and An Taisce would make a lot less noise than they did about the bypass.

Yours,

Wall of text but worth reading.

BluntGuy

A very good letter, shows a clear understanding of what's going on, addressing all the issues, referring to roads as M showing that they know what's happening with regard to motorway redesignations, offers some practical solutions and finally tells people what a silly idea GLUAS is, at least in the short to medium term.

There's no point building a bypass that doesn't bypass anything...

KevR

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Wall of text but worth reading.

Read that the other day in the paper.

A very good read!

BluntGuy

But let's not forget the depressing fact that if a developer were to propose a large housing estate in the Thonabrucky Bog, the main site of N6 environmental objections by An Bord Pleanala, I bet that local councillors and An Taisce would make a lot less noise than they did about the bypass.

Ah but sure, we all love idenkit cardboard houses without a single shop for miles...

Much more useful to people than a good quality road... :mad:

Chris_533976

Heres an article in the Galway Independent. Some of it is completely true, but other parts are silly. There is no way the tenders for a Gort to Tuam PPP are going to be issued within a couple of weeks. Thats bull of the highest order.

The construction of first phase of the long-awaited Galway City Outer Bypass will cause traffic mayhem in the city unless significant measures are introduced. That's according to Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Eamon O Cuiv, who told the Galway Independent this week that areas such as Barna and Moycullen would be used as rat-runs and "clogged up with traffic" when the motorway opens in a few years time.

Construction on the multi-million euro development is set to begin in 2010 but only a segment will go-ahead as the stretch between Gortacleva and An Baile Nua was refused planning on ecological grounds by An Bord Pleanala last December.

The new road will now stop in the Bushy Park area and will pose huge problems as motorists use villages such as Barna and Moycullen to avoid traffic blackspots, according to Mr O Cuiv.

"This part of the bypass will change the traffic configuration patterns in the city dramatically and will cause huge issues unless action is taken now."

"We need to upgrade these roads and proposed relief roads in the Barna and Moycullen areas will have to go ahead. It will be 2012-2014 before this route is completed so time is on our side, but we have to sit down and look at the consequences of this planning decision," he said.

There was widespread shock and outrage when planning for the second section of the bypass was turned down on the grounds that it would have a "significantly adverse effect" on Thonabrucky Bog, which is listed as a priority habitat under the EU Habitats Directive.

However, Minister O Cuiv believes the motorway can still go ahead in its entirety and said that putting forward a new proposal combining the rejected stretch of road with a proposed highway between Barna and Rossaveal would be the most "sensible option".

"When An Bord Pleanala refused the second half of the bypass, they clearly indicated that it could go ahead if we looked at alternatives. There would be similar ecological issues with the Barna to Rossaveal road so I think the best option would be to combine the two in a new proposal."

"There has been a lot of talk about funding not being available for these roads but in the current downturn, you can get very good value for money."

"There have been estimates coming in for a number of projects and they are very competitive. You can get more for less and this is the upside of the downside."

"I would expect tenders for the Gort to Tuam road to be sought in the next couple of weeks and that will go ahead under Public Private Partnership. There will be a lot of capital investment in infrastructure over the next number of years."

Minister O Cuiv said he and several other local TDs would be meeting with both the city and county councils this week to discuss the impact of the GCOB planning decision.

http://www.galwayindependent.com/local-news/local-news/bypass-construction-could-cause-mayhem-%11-o-cuiv/

BluntGuy

I thought I'd just isolate this bit of text from the rest for all to see:

"I would expect tenders for the Gort to Tuam road to be sought in the next couple of weeks and that will go ahead under Public Private Partnership. There will be a lot of capital investment in infrastructure over the next number of years."

I really don't know what to say. Is this a blatant lie or just somebody not having a clue what they're talking about?