Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

theboyblunder

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I was doing a short run with the young lad, and had stopped to talk to the lady-bosses, when I saw a streak of black-ninja go by, wearing day-glow banana yellow shoes. Was that you? The gait looked familiar. Yeah, must give you a holler, next time I have a 15-18 miler and am in the area.

yip that was me. Signature red hair covered by a hat but the keyser-soze biomechanics are a dead-giveaway alright

Krusty_Clown

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Have your tried runways? Will be there tomorrow or Wednesday if you haven't and can check or pick some up for you.

If you can keep an eye out, that'd be great. Have never ventured as far as Runways. I've invested in the curry-laden Asics now though, so the budget is tight!

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Yesterday evening: 5.8 mile run home
When I packed my running gear that morning, there was bright sunshine streaming through the curtains, so I avoided thoughts of bright reflective clothing. Heading home in the darkness, in my ninja-like outfit, I felt a little like Ethan Hunt (complete with parachute backpack), running through the leafy suburbs of South County Dublin. Unencumbered by heavy hard-drives and hills that pointed upwards, the run home was much easier and far more enjoyable. The pace (7:04/mile) reflects the easy downhill nature of the run, but between the morning uphill route and downhill run home, it averages out at around 12 miles of easy running, so a great way to notch up some aerobic miles. Shoulders are sore today from the weight, so have to keep the backpack light.

I've a similar work commute run now about 3 days a week - I've found shoes add the most weight to the bag so I try to always ensure I've a pair left at work. Running with a backpack toughens you up though and once you get used to it, it makes the running without a lot easier. I'll be 5 days a week in the city centre after christmas so I'm hoping the legs will hold up for the increased mileage. Gringo + backpack now is already lighter than Gringo without backpack 5 weeks ago so things are getting easier each week.

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

I've a similar work commute run now about 3 days a week - I've found shoes add the most weight to the bag so I try to always ensure I've a pair left at work. Running with a backpack toughens you up though and once you get used to it, it makes the running without a lot easier. I'll be 5 days a week in the city centre after christmas so I'm hoping the legs will hold up for the increased mileage. Gringo + backpack now is already lighter than Gringo without backpack 5 weeks ago so things are getting easier each week.

Wow. That must be a pound a week you are shedding. Impressive! Are you using the vibrams for your commutes? I noticed the additional weight of the backpack puts more pressure on the lower legs, so figured I'd be better off with some kind of cushioning.

Yeah, will definitely keep up the run-mutes, but with a couple of Jack Daniels training sessions every week, I'll have to be smart about how I schedule these. There'll be more opportunities when I switch back to marathon training. In fact, the run-mutes are ideal for ratcheting up the miles and are reducing post-work related stress.

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Wow. That must be a pound a week you are shedding. Impressive! Are you using the vibrams for your commutes? I noticed the additional weight of the backpack puts more pressure on the lower legs, so figured I'd be better off with some kind of cushioning.

Yep...amazing what effects changing the morning routine from Coffee & a Danish to a 10k run can have! Only 17 pounds to go :eek:

Not using the vibrams yet for the run-mute(good word!) - trying to be extra cautious as I am upping the mileage now and all the extra mileage is on concrete pavements so wary of stress fractures. I'm a low mileage type runner (I peak at a whopping 35mpw during marathon training) and as the run-mute will get me to 60mpw I'm building it slowly. I've a genuine shot at starting a marathon training cycle next spring in good shape and capable to 70-80mpw so I don't want to f**k it up!

myflipflops

Gringo78 wrote: »

Yep...amazing what effects changing the morning routine from Coffee & a Danish to a 10k run can have! Only 17 pounds to go

Haha. I hear that. My commute is only a couple of miles usually but I always run past the place i used to get my coffee with ham/cheese croissant and smile.

I actually find the backpack good for focring me to run straight. Again, I only do a couple of miles each way with it about 3 times a week but I have to run tall to make it comfortable and I then feel great when I go training carrying nothing.

Gringo78

myflipflops wrote: »

I always run past the place i used to get my coffee with ham/cheese croissant and smile.

Ham/Cheese croissant - good one, create the illusion of there being some nutritional value in it.

My worst days were when I'd arrive up at the till with my coffe & apple turnover slice and the cashier (recognising me as a valued customer) would slip a second one fresh from the oven into the bag as the one I had brought up had been sitting on the shelf for a while - so I'd leave the shop with TWO when I had intended to get nothing.

Hanging for an Ham/Cheese croissant now - with all its dairy goodness

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

so I'd leave the shop with TWO when I had intended to get nothing.

That sounds like a great deal. I wouldn't be in such a hurry to give that one up! The questions is, did you really have to eat both apple turnovers?

theboyblunder

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That sounds like a great deal. I wouldn't be in such a hurry to give that one up!

I agree. 1 mile - ca. 100 calories. Eat both and run another 5 miles that day!

One of the best things about running has got to be the guilt-free, consequence-free cake

(cholesterol-wise im probably screwed)

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The questions is, did you really have to eat both apple turnovers?

Clearly yes.....the one fresh from the oven is a gift from the great baker in the sky and needs to be consumed pronto to be fully appreciated. The other one has already had its freshness strongly questioned and thus needs to be consumed without undue delay - the option of giving the second one to a work colleague is unfortunately not a goer due to the risk of food poisoning.

theboyblunder wrote: »

I agree. 1 mile - ca. 100 calories. Eat both and run another 5 miles that day!

One of the best things about running has got to be the guilt-free, consequence-free cake

(cholesterol-wise im probably screwed)

Starting the day with 2 apple turnovers before 8am is going to lead to you needing to run a lot more than 5 miles by the end of the day....I'd need to be into Ultra running.

Krusty_Clown

I'm with theboyblunder on this one. It's ok to have cake, once you have earned the cake, but no cake if you haven't earned it. Of course that rules out morning cake (unless you get out running particularly early). Cakes not really my thing though. Gimme a few good beers any day. A good training session deserves a few beers.

Speaking of beers, I just bottled my Belgian strong ale. Should be ready in February, just in time for London Marathon when I cut-back on the beer again. My timing is impeccable. In the mean-time, It's time to start cooking a nice light ale, with lots of Hersbrucker hops. Lots of core work moving around those fermenters and crates of bottles. Anyway, enough talk of beer. It's making me thirsty.

Yesterday: 5.39 easy miles
Couple of easy miles as far as ALDI, to stock up on some healthy pre-run snacks.
Summary: 5.39 miles in 40 mins, @7:22/mile

Krusty_Clown

Today: Jack Daniels 5k-15k: 200/400/800/400/200 Reps

Today, work was cruel, but the weather was kind. Had to put off the run on a number of occasions for meetings that didn't transpire. In the mean-time, the wind died down, so by the time I headed out it was a mild 3-4 m/s. Bloody cold out, but that suits me fine, for a session like this. I made my way to the usual spot (2 mile warm-up) and abandoned my second layer and radio in some bushes. I'm finding it much better these days to do the sessions without music (particularly trixy sessions like this one), but still like the tunes for the warm-up and warm-down.

4 x 200m (target: 37 seconds): 36, 39, 39, 39
2 x 400m (target: 75 seconds): 73, 74
1 x 800m (target: 2:30 seconds): 2:26
2 x 400m (target: 75 seconds): 74, 72
4 x 200m (target: 37 seconds): 39, 37, 37, 36
Recoveries were easy jogs, the same distance as the reps.

Enjoyed this a lot more than the previous reps sessions. May have been the variety in distances. The 800m rep was as difficult as you might expect (just 8 seconds off of my 800m PB), but otherwise everything went to plan. I have a creeping suspicion that I have a chest-infection brewing at the moment, so glad to get this session done successfully before it beds in properly. Hoping it's mild, or skips me completely this year, or I'll lose a couple of weeks of sessions to it.
Summary: 9.09 miles in 61 mins, @6:44/mile

myflipflops

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The questions is, did you really have to eat both apple turnovers?

Never make a fat bloke out of you with that attitude.

wideball

Like the look of that Daniels session. I have the book but still going through it. I reckon I'll follow the P&D "elite" plan for total weekly milage but use Daniels methods for the long run for London.

I did a similar total distance interval session yesterday myself, http://connect.garmin.com/activity/247342017.

I've been following the 10k plan from McMillan championed here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056231396, for the last few weeks. ParkRun 5km this week and the Aware 10km next week are the targets at the moment..

Krusty_Clown

wideball wrote: »

Like the look of that Daniels session. I have the book but still going through it. I reckon I'll follow the P&D "elite" plan for total weekly milage but use Daniels methods for the long run for London.

I did a similar total distance interval session yesterday myself, http://connect.garmin.com/activity/247342017.

I've been following the 10k plan from McMillan championed here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056231396, for the last few weeks. ParkRun 5km this week and the Aware 10km next week are the targets at the moment..

That's a very solid session, particularly on grass (you could take a couple of seconds off of each of the reps as compared to road). One interesting comparison between the Mcmillan 10k plan and the JD 5k-15k plan:

The key (most challenging) session in McMillan is:
3 x 2 mile @10k pace with 3-5 mins rest between intervals

A pretty regular session in JD 5k-15k plan (in the same week as two other sessions):
3 x 2 mile @Tempo with 2 mins rest between intervals

For me, current 10k pace = 5:36/mile (3:29/km). Tempo pace = ~5:51/mile (~3:38/km). So as you can see, not a huge amount of difference in the sessions. In fact, if you can manage the JD session, the MacMillan session should be quite achievable. McMillan's is slightly faster, but has significantly longer recovery. However, JD's tempo session is just a regular tempo session rather than the 'key' session. So there seems to be a bit of a disconnect.

It may be that I have more aptitude for the longer stuff, or it may be that I have a very short memory (quite possible), but JD plans seem tougher than any plans I have followed in the past, including the various P&D plans. I have mixed feelings about whether or not that is entirely a good thing. For a decent competitive runner, I would imagine this is exactly the type of work you need to do to make progress. For a typical born-again recreational runner (like myself) JD certainly seems to be on the extreme side of training, while the MacMillan plan would probably be on the lighter side.

wideball

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That's a very solid session, particularly on grass (you could take a couple of seconds off of each of the reps as compared to road). One interesting comparison between the Mcmillan 10k plan and the JD 5k-15k plan:

The key (most challenging) session in McMillan is:
3 x 2 mile @10k pace with 3-5 mins rest between intervals

A pretty regular session in JD 5k-15k plan (in the same week as two other sessions):
3 x 2 mile @Tempo with 2 mins rest between intervals

For me, current 10k pace = 5:36/mile (3:29/km). Tempo pace = ~5:51/mile (~3:38/km). So as you can see, not a huge amount of difference in the sessions. In fact, if you can manage the JD session, the MacMillan session should be quite achievable. McMillan's is slightly faster, but has significantly longer recovery. However, JD's tempo session is just a regular tempo session rather than the 'key' session. So there seems to be a bit of a disconnect.

It may be that I have more aptitude for the longer stuff, or it may be that I have a very short memory (quite possible), but JD plans seem tougher than any plans I have followed in the past, including the various P&D plans. I have mixed feelings about whether or not that is entirely a good thing. For a decent competitive runner, I would imagine this is exactly the type of work you need to do to make progress. For a typical born-again recreational runner (like myself) JD certainly seems to be on the extreme side of training, while the MacMillan plan would probably be on the lighter side.

Thanks for that... but I have to admit that the intervals were on a path!

In the McMillan, I have managed the lead up sessions (1 x 2 mile, 4 X 1 mile @10k & 2 x 2 mile, 2 X 1 mile @10k) but with 5km race on Sat followed by 10k race the following sat, I reckon doing the 3 X 2 mile session before the 10km will be too much in the time left?? Might do it next Tue... will see. I found the other lead up sessions tough but very beneficial.

The JD sessions look very tough for marathon training. I was thinking of using JD VDot to gauge training paces with at least one race per month leading to London. I reckon using the increased mileage (for me) of P&D plan plus targeted tempo/intervals using VDot for current pace guidelines may work for me. 2 key sessions a week (long run and alternate weekly intervals/tempos) rather than JD's 3 will be my plan. I reckon JD's full plan work leave me a crumbled wreck!! Also plan to alternate long run weekly with an easy and a JD style long run.

Plan to start London marathon training on Jan 1 (ish) with the current lead up 10km plan and some Xmas base running.

Your 10km pace is my 5km pace.... :rolleyes:

Krusty_Clown

wideball wrote: »

Thanks for that...

More just general observations between the two rather than any type of advice! I found the MacMillan workouts really tough when I followed the 10k plan, but comparing it to the JD training, it doesn't seem quite as challenging.

wideball wrote: »

In the McMillan, I have managed the lead up sessions (1 x 2 mile, 4 X 1 mile @10k & 2 x 2 mile, 2 X 1 mile @10k) but with 5km race on Sat followed by 10k race the following sat, I reckon doing the 3 X 2 mile session before the 10km will be too much in the time left?? Might do it next Tue... will see. I found the other lead up sessions tough but very beneficial.

IIRC, you're supposed to do the final MacMillan session 9 days before your 10k goal race, so I'd forget about doing the final session and stick with your 5k/10k plan. Better to be fresh, than wrecked!

wideball wrote: »

The JD sessions look very tough for marathon training. I was thinking of using JD VDot to gauge training paces with at least one race per month leading to London. I reckon using the increased mileage (for me) of P&D plan plus targeted tempo/intervals using VDot for current pace guidelines may work for me. 2 key sessions a week (long run and alternate weekly intervals/tempos) rather than JD's 3 will be my plan. I reckon JD's full plan work leave me a crumbled wreck!! Also plan to alternate long run weekly with an easy and a JD style long run.

The JD marathon plans only have two sessions per week. It's his 5k-15k plan that alternates between 2 or 3 sessions every week. His Marathon Plan A is probably at a similar level (in terms of challenge) to the higher mileage P&D plan, just the focus of the training is slightly different. On that point, I'd be sightly cautious of mixing the two plans too much, as they are both quite progressive (sessions tend to build on from previous sessions).

wideball wrote: »

Your 10km pace is my 5km pace.... :rolleyes:

You are improving a lot quicker than me! At some point in the very near future, our paths will intersect!

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It may be that I have more aptitude for the longer stuff, or it may be that I have a very short memory (quite possible), but JD plans seem tougher than any plans I have followed in the past, including the various P&D plans. I have mixed feelings about whether or not that is entirely a good thing. For a decent competitive runner, I would imagine this is exactly the type of work you need to do to make progress. For a typical born-again recreational runner (like myself) JD certainly seems to be on the extreme side of training, while the MacMillan plan would probably be on the lighter side.

Its an oft overlooked part of Daniels Training - his target runner is one capable of a 5:00min/ml T pace & he says a 'mile' at T pace means a mile or 5min, whichever is shortest thus the JD session for you should be at most:

3 x 10 min @Tempo with 2 mins rest between intervals

So in your particular case, you are actually increasing the intensive work by 17% over that asked for by Daniels.

Also, Daniels infers that 10-15 hours running per week would be his desired volume (although he does say each to their own) so ideally, a Daniels plan is backed up by a Volume of 80-120mpw so if your weekly volume is less, you're going to find the quantity of intensive work proportionally high and tough.

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

Its an oft overlooked part of Daniels Training - his target runner is one capable of a 5:00min/ml T pace & he says a 'mile' at T pace means a mile or 5min, whichever is shortest thus the JD session for you should be at most:

3 x 10 min @Tempo with 2 mins rest between intervals

So in your particular case, you are actually increasing the intensive work by 17% over that asked for by Daniels.

Also, Daniels infers that 10-15 hours running per week would be his desired volume (although he does say each to their own) so ideally, a Daniels plan is backed up by a Volume of 80-120mpw so if your weekly volume is less, you're going to find the quantity of intensive work proportionally high and tough.

That seems a bit of a generalization though. The JD book includes plans for beginner level, right through to Elite level, including a 'just finish' marathon plan. The Elite marathon plan is aimed at runners who run a minimum of 90 mpw, so presumably the Plan A (significantly easier than the Elite Plan) would be targeted at runners who run less than 90 mpw (and the 'just-finish' plan at lower mileage runners again). So which plan is targeted at 5 minute mile runners? Is it specifically the 5k-15k plan? Not doubting you, I may not have read that particular section.

By the way, the exact wording of that work-out is:
3 x (2 mile or 10-12 min at T pace, with 2-min rest), so that would seem to be aimed at anyone with a vdot T pace up to a 6 minute/mile.

nerraw1111

wideball wrote: »

Like the look of that Daniels session. I have the book but still going through it. I reckon I'll follow the P&D "elite" plan for total weekly milage but use Daniels methods for the long run for London.

I did a similar total distance interval session yesterday myself, http://connect.garmin.com/activity/247342017.

That lap near acres is a tough route for intervals. The back section nearly kills me each time.

Still waiting for my daniel's book to arrive, ordered it almost a month ago. Will start the McMillan workouts tomorrow as who knows when book will arrive.

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

Its an oft overlooked part of Daniels Training - his target runner is one capable of a 5:00min/ml T pace & he says a 'mile' at T pace means a mile or 5min, whichever is shortest

By the way, according to the vdot calculator, in order to have a T pace of 5:00min/mile, you would need a vdot of 73, and you should be capable of a 14:14 5k (or a 2:18 marathon). So if the book is aimed at those kinds of standards, he's really shooting himself in the foot, in terms of target audience.

wideball

nerraw1111 wrote: »

That lap near acres is a tough route for intervals. The back section nearly kills me each time.

Still waiting for my daniel's book to arrive, ordered it almost a month ago. Will start the McMillan workouts tomorrow as who knows when book will arrive.

I ran it anti-clockwise.. probably the easier direction

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That seems a bit of a generalization though. The JD book includes plans for beginner level, right through to Elite level, including a 'just finish' marathon plan. The Elite marathon plan is aimed at runners who run a minimum of 90 mpw, so presumably the Plan A (significantly easier than the Elite Plan) would be targeted at runners who run less than 90 mpw (and the 'just-finish' plan at lower mileage runners again). So which plan is targeted at 5 minute mile runners? Is it specifically the 5k-15k plan? Not doubting you, I may not have read that particular section.

By the way, the exact wording of that work-out is:
3 x (2 mile or 10-12 min at T pace, with 2-min rest), so that would seem to be aimed at anyone with a vdot T pace up to a 6 minute/mile.

Took a look at it again as I was recalling it from memory but basically he says for those plans other than elite plan, 2 miles means 10-12 mins. For the elite plan he's more specific and says a mile is an elite mile - 6 minute mile at easy pace, 5minute mile at marathon pace and 4:30-5:00 for T pace so most definitely Elite in the international sense. So if you're not at those paces, he says 5 miles at M pace should be read as 25minutes at M pace.

He doesn't however preclude non-elite runners from using the elite plan or as you say any of his plans, in fact the way he lays things out makes it very all inclusive as you can select any weekly mileage but he does include a couple of caveats in relation to proportion of intensive work to overall weekly mileage and makes mention of 10-15 hours a week running being good so he's got 'high' mileage expectations - he's used to coaching collegiate & olympic athletes so while his book aims to be all inclusive, his knowledge comes from his observations of the runners he coaches doing what recreational runners like us would consider high mileage but they might consider 70-80 as average to low.

Certainly a Sub 3 runner would need to be running >80mpw on a Daniels plan to be able to do a long run >20 miles under Daniels rules (long run not >25% of weekly mileage)

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

Took a look at it again as I was recalling it from memory but basically he says for those plans other than elite plan, 2 miles means 10-12 mins. For the elite plan he's more specific and says a mile is an elite mile - 6 minute mile at easy pace, 5minute mile at marathon pace and 4:30-5:00 for T pace so most definitely Elite in the international sense. So if you're not at those paces, he says 5 miles at M pace should be read as 25minutes at M pace.

He doesn't however preclude non-elite runners from using the elite plan or as you say any of his plans, in fact the way he lays things out makes it very all inclusive as you can select any weekly mileage but he does include a couple of caveats in relation to proportion of intensive work to overall weekly mileage and makes mention of 10-15 hours a week running being good so he's got 'high' mileage expectations - he's used to coaching collegiate & olympic athletes so while his book aims to be all inclusive, his knowledge comes from his observations of the runners he coaches doing what recreational runners like us would consider high mileage but they might consider 70-80 as average to low.

Certainly a Sub 3 runner would need to be running >80mpw on a Daniels plan to be able to do a long run >20 miles under Daniels rules (long run not >25% of weekly mileage)

Yeah, that makes more sense. Having followed most of plan A for DCM averaging around 80-85 mpw, it seems the right level/mileage for that plan. Any less and the long sessions would be a struggle. Any more, and you should potentially be looking at the Elite plan (just in terms of mileage, rather than whether you are an 'elite' category runner).

In terms of the 5k-15k plan, it is certainly scaleable for any planned pace, but might be a bit more challenging for newer runners, because of the challenge of running 2-3 tough sessions in a single week.

How are you after that fall? Hope no injuries?

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

How are you after that fall? Hope no injuries?

Neck and upper back quite sore - simliar to whiplash. But legs ok so won't stop me running (easy). When I ran out the door I thought briefly of going back to put on my Inov 8's but didn't think it would be so icy so left it so, they would have saved me.

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

Neck and upper back quite sore - simliar to whiplash. But legs ok so won't stop me running (easy). When I ran out the door I thought briefly of going back to put on my Inov 8's but didn't think it would be so icy so left it so, they would have saved me.

It could be whiplash. Did you have a back-pack on at the time? I fell coming off a mountain a couple of years ago with a backpack and couldn't move my neck for a week. Not pleasant.

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It could be whiplash. Did you have a back-pack on at the time? I fell coming off a mountain a couple of years ago with a backpack and couldn't move my neck for a week. Not pleasant.

Yep - back pack on so I'd say that was it - lucky I didn't have a lunchbox in it, thats meant to be sore!

Krusty_Clown

Yesterday: 5 mile recovery run
Easy run with Keith123 around the local pitches. Happy to take the pace very handy, as this run split the first two sessions of the week and I still have a chest infection looming.
Summary: 5 miles in 41:14, @8:13

Today: 3 x 2 Miles @ tempo with 2 mins rest
I did this session 10 days before the marathon and it wasn't too bad. Today, it was ok too. The first mile of each two mile segment was up a drag into a light wind and was tough, but as soon as I reached the turn-about point, the return back down the drag was comfortable, with just a challenging final 1/4 mile uphill at the finish. I had hoped to stick a little closer to my planned tempo pace (5:50/mile), but hitting the top of the climb at 5:45/mile average pace, there was little point in easing back on the easier section.
Actual pace: 5:44 / 5:43 / 5:40.

Summary: 10.39 miles in 1:08:53, @~6:36/mile

thirstywork2

Have one pair of kinvaras size 10 left with 25% off in the sale:D
Let me know how the 33's go as I love the design on the heel and a new shoe we are stocking im always interested to hear how people get on good or bad.

Krusty_Clown

thirstywork2 wrote: »

Have one pair of kinvaras size 10 left with 25% off in the sale:D
Let me know how the 33's go as I love the design on the heel and a new shoe we are stocking im always interested to hear how people get on good or bad.

Will give them another try this weekend for another session, but so far, I'm not in love with them. Will send you a pm you about the Kinvaras.