Send in the Clowns - BAC 10K Challenge

average_runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Ask me again in seven days time! Runners have very different perceptions when it comes to the vdot (or Macmillan) tables, depending on where their strengths lie. Some people will plug-in their 10k time and see a marathon time that they just don't believe they can achieve. Others will enter their marathon time and wonder how they could possibly achieve such an aggressive 10k time. But the answer is that the vdot tables don't give you anything other than suggested training paces. They don't guarantee finishing times. Rather, they are a starting point. You plug in your 10k time, and it gives you appropriate training paces for following one of the plans. As you progress through that training plan, you run tune-up races and based on the results of these races you update your vdot and get new training paces. At the end of the day, it's not a finish time predictor; just a training aid.

To illustrate this point:
If I had finished my Lakes 10k in a time of: 34:53, I would have a vdot of 60 and a predicted marathon finish time of 2:43:25 (PMP = 6:14/mile)
But I actually finished in 34:51, which is a vdot of 61 and a predicted marathon finish time of 2:41:08 (PMP = 6:09/mile)

What could that two second difference in finishing times represent? A small hill. An open shoe-lace. A bad racing line on a corner. A congested start. A brief head-wind. An inaccurate chip-timing system. You just can't read these things as gospel and instead need to apply some common sense. In my case, I ran a 16 mile race at marathon pace 4/5 weeks ago (on the back of a 90 mile week) and the pace was comfortable enough, so that was the tip of the hat I needed to say that the pace is appropriate for my current level of fitness. Will I go faster than that? Slower than that? Again, ask me next week!


I'm far from an expert, and have only been dabbling on the light side of Jack Daniels for the last three months. Tunguska seems to know a lot more about JD plans, so it would be worth dropping him a PM. On the other hand, spending the first half of next year on a 5-15k plan, sounds like perfect setup for New York in October! Hammer out some good times in everything from 5k to 10 miles and then kick-off your marathon plan. Perfect planning!

Thanks a million for that Krusty. Best of luck next Monday and look forward to the report.

Thanks

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

Also was thinking of trying the 5-15k plan but its 25 weeks long, the base i can cut out as have that from dublin, but is this plan a bit long for a 10K or is just something i should follow for the 20-25 weeks?

I'm following the Daniels 24 week plan for a 10k. What makes you think it's too long? You can do other races along the way, it's just they won't be the goal race, they're not where your training will peak. If you're going to cut anything, btw, it shouldn't be the base period. There's a table in one of the early chapters where the training sections are ordered by priority, and Daniels says the base phase is most important.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

I'm following the Daniels 24 week plan for a 10k. What makes you think it's too long? You can do other races along the way, it's just they won't be the goal race, they're not where your training will peak. If you're going to cut anything, btw, it shouldn't be the base period. There's a table in one of the early chapters where the training sections are ordered by priority, and Daniels says the base phase is most important.

Main reason i said the base could be skipped is because i have the marathon training behind me. I will do easy runs after the marathon and then start the plan, this not a good idea? Just need to find a 10k for a date that suits the plan.

RayCun

average_runner wrote: »

Main reason i said the base could be skipped is because i have the marathon training behind me. I will do easy runs after the marathon and then start the plan, this not a good idea? Just need to find a 10k for a date that suits the plan.

You're running... what, 40-45 miles a week at the moment for marathon training? Call it 40 miles.
If you cut out the base phase of the 10k plan, what mileage would you start phase 2 at? 40 miles still, but now including reps and intervals? That would be too much to take. Or drop down to 25-30 miles so you can fit in the faster work too? But now you've lost a chunk of your aerobic work, and you need that fitness for the 10k.
Instead you could start your base phase at 40 mpw. All easy, shortish runs, as per the plan - maybe 6 x 6.5 miles per week. After 3 weeks, replace an easy run with a longer run, so you're up to 45ish miles. Then when you start phase 2 you can replace some of those easy runs with sessions and if your mileage drops it's still going to be around 40 a week.

menoscemo

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

To illustrate this point:
If I had finished my Lakes 10k in a time of: 34:53, I would have a vdot of 60 and a predicted marathon finish time of 2:43:25 (PMP = 6:14/mile)
But I actually finished in 34:51, which is a vdot of 61 and a predicted marathon finish time of 2:41:08 (PMP = 6:09/mile)

Hey Krusty. You should check out this VDOT calculator:
http://www.attackpoint.org/trainingpaces.jsp
Instead of jumping a full VDOT point for the sake of a few seconds it gives you your VDOT to 2 decimal places.
So Your 34:53 actually gives you a VDOT of 60.97 with a marathon time of 2:41:09; while a 34:51 gives you a VDOT of 61.04 and a Marathon time of 2:41:00

Krusty_Clown

menoscemo wrote: »

Hey Krusty. You should check out this VDOT calculator:
http://www.attackpoint.org/trainingpaces.jsp
Instead of jumping a full VDOT point for the sake of a few seconds it gives you your VDOT to 2 decimal places.
So Your 34:53 actually gives you a VDOT of 60.97 with a marathon time of 2:41:09; while a 34:51 gives you a VDOT of 61.04 and a Marathon time of 2:41:00

See, you're getting hung up on the numbers! Decimal places?! There'll be no decimal places on Monday. Just hard running, followed swiftly by many pints!

myflipflops

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

See, you're getting hung up on the numbers! Decimal places?! There'll be no decimal places on Monday. Just hard running, followed swiftly by many pints!

Could not agree more. It think the Garmin generation are too obsessed by numbers. These things should be used to track and measure your running, not to dictate to you.

Pisco Sour

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

See, you're getting hung up on the numbers! Decimal places?! There'll be no decimal places on Monday. Just hard running, followed swiftly by many pints!

But will you be counting the pints?

Krusty_Clown

Pisco Sour wrote: »

But will you be counting the pints?

I'll just keep pressing 'lap' on the Garmin. Pity the pub has only got 'sh1te' beer. Extensive drinks list, my h0le! Might end up nipping over and back from Doheny and Nesbitts for the occasional hooker. :eek:

TRR

myflipflops wrote: »

Could not agree more. It think the Garmin generation are too obsessed by numbers. These things should be used to track and measure your running, not to dictate to you.

+1 and I have fallen victim to this myself at times so I'm not innocent. Next Monday I'll be heading off at perceived effort if the garmin is telling me I'm running too slow then so be it I won't worry about it as that's how I will feel at that moment in time and will not be increasing the effort. I suppose it will be more useful to make sure I don't overcook it in the first half, I have no qualms taking the foot (very) slightly off the gas.

On a slightly related noted it's why I wouldn't run with pacers, your race pace is being dictated to you by somebody else, fair enough if you use them as a guide, but people generally try to remain rammed up the arses of the pacers. Doing this doesn't allow you to have a slightly faster/slower mile depending on how you feel. I was going to start a thread on this subject in the main forum but am afraid of being shot. I already had a go at the pacers a couple of months back on the pacers forum

Pisco Sour

TRR wrote: »

+1 and I have fallen victim to this myself at times so I'm not innocent. Next Monday I'll be heading off at perceived effort if the garmin is telling me I'm running too slow then so be it I won't worry about it as that's how I will feel at that moment in time and will not be increasing the effort. I suppose it will be more useful to make sure I don't overcook it in the first half, I have no qualms taking the foot (very) slightly off the gas.

On a slightly related noted it's why I wouldn't run with pacers, your race pace is being dictated to you by somebody else, fair enough if you use them as a guide, but people generally try to remain rammed up the arses of the pacers. Doing this doesn't allow you to have a slightly faster/slower mile depending on how you feel. I was going to start a thread on this subject in the main forum but am afraid of being shot. I already had a go at the pacers a couple of months back on the pacers forum

Go for it. There's very little interesting debate going on there these days!

menoscemo

TRR wrote: »

On a slightly related noted it's why I wouldn't run with pacers, your race pace is being dictated to you by somebody else, fair enough if you use them as a guide, but people generally try to remain rammed up the arses of the pacers. Doing this doesn't allow you to have a slightly faster/slower mile depending on how you feel. I was going to start a thread on this subject in the main forum but am afraid of being shot. I already had a go at the pacers a couple of months back on the pacers forum

I totally agree, even though I pace pretty much every race, I would never follow pacers myself. I do think they are useful for inexperienced runners though especially over the first few miles.

Whenever this topic comes up I always remember ultraman1's story about the Cork Marathon a few years ago. He went into a portaloo for a whizz with his pacer balloon out the door halfway through the race. Whenever he came out there were a bunch of his pacees standing at the door waiting for him (not sure if this actually happened or Anto was just making it up for effect).

Krusty_Clown

I'm entirely of the same view. While I'm happy to be a pacer, I wouldn't run with a pacer for exactly that reason. I'd much rather run my own race. My best ever marathon experience was Barcelona a few years ago, where I ignored the numbers on the watch completely and just ran at a pace that felt right. Plan is to do the same on Monday.

aigster

menoscemo wrote: »

I totally agree, even though I pace pretty much every race, I would never follow pacers myself. I do think they are useful for inexperienced runners though especially over the first few miles.

Whenever this topic comes up I always remember ultraman1's story about the Cork Marathon a few years ago. He went into a portaloo for a whizz with his pacer balloon out the door halfway through the race. Whenever he came out there were a bunch of his pacees standing at the door waiting for him [SIZE="1"](not sure if this actually happened or Anto was just making it up for effect).[/SIZE]

As stories go.. That's a good one

average_runner

menoscemo wrote: »

I totally agree, even though I pace pretty much every race, I would never follow pacers myself. I do think they are useful for inexperienced runners though especially over the first few miles.

Whenever this topic comes up I always remember ultraman1's story about the Cork Marathon a few years ago. He went into a portaloo for a whizz with his pacer balloon out the door halfway through the race. Whenever he came out there were a bunch of his pacees standing at the door waiting for him (not sure if this actually happened or Anto was just making it up for effect).

Ha ha thats very funny. I think its not a bad idea to have the pacers as a back up plan, something that could drag you home with them kicking you up the arse for the final few miles so they get their free beer

TRR

menoscemo wrote: »

I totally agree, even though I pace pretty much every race, I would never follow pacers myself. I do think they are useful for inexperienced runners though especially over the first few miles.

Whenever this topic comes up I always remember ultraman1's story about the Cork Marathon a few years ago. He went into a portaloo for a whizz with his pacer balloon out the door halfway through the race. Whenever he came out there were a bunch of his pacees standing at the door waiting for him (not sure if this actually happened or Anto was just making it up for effect).

I had to take a pee in the park last year and stepped off the course just before the Donore gate 2 lads followed me :eek: I had to tell them to keep running and I'd catch up with them. I'm use to strange men holding my penis in the park* but this was a race!!!

*Disclaimer no strange men have handled my penis in the park ...... I know most of them

BeepBeep67

TRR wrote: »

I had to take a pee in the park last year and stepped off the course just before the Donore gate 2 lads followed me :eek: I had to tell them to keep running and I'd catch up with them. I'm use to strange men holding my penis in the park* but this was a race!!!

*Disclaimer no strange men have handled my penis in the park ...... I know most of them

I heard you were pulled along for a few miles alright

Krusty_Clown

Today: 10k submarine-shaped run
Taper week sucks-ass. Need to find some other hobbies that will last me the next 6 days. How hard is it to learn to knit?
Summary: 10k in 46 mins, @7:21/mile

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Good luck Gar for next Monday, you have done savage work the last few months and i hope you get your reward for it. Catch you after for cupla pints.

Krusty_Clown

Today: 1 hour easy with strides

Ain't running great?! Left the office in a bit of a rage, and headed out into the rain and fog wrapped in a blanket of anger. One hour (and some strides) later arrived back nice and calm. Now to start building the anger and rage again. Going to be a disastrous week from a work perspective. long hours and stress. Not what you need heading into a goal race. Legs are feeling pretty good though, with just the usual bit of tightness. Easy session tomorrow (4x1,200) and then massage, then short easy runs (with some strides) until race day.
Summary: 8.44 miles in 60 mins, @7:05/mile

Krusty_Clown

Today: 4 x 1,200m @ Tempo
The last session before we go over the wall. Two easy miles down to Leopardstown race-course, and then used the back-road for the intervals, which was less than ideal for 1200m repeats. The first and third intervals were uphill into a slight head-wind, while intervals 3 and four were conversely downhill (with a slight headwind??). All felt comfortable enough, despite running way ahead of target. I was just eager to get the session finished. 2.x miles warm-down.

Intervals:
1: 4:11 @5:35
2: 4:09 @5:33
3: 4:10 @5:33
4: 4:11 @5:36

Summary: 8.68 miles in 58 mins, @6:42/mile

smmoore79

Best of luck Monday; I'll be cycling around to different points on the course and will keep an eye out for ya!

wrstan

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Going to be a disastrous week from a work perspective. long hours and stress. Not what you need heading into a goal race.

The distraction mightn't do you any harm during the taper/psych up.
Without doubt you've well earned the right to be confident and relaxed on the start line, that's in the bank whatever happens this week.
Good luck with it all!

Krusty_Clown

Today: 6 miles easy with strides

Went to the pain-bringer last night to try to iron out the final few niggles. As usual, he did an extraordinary job. The session actually hurt less than any other pre-marathon sports massage session I've had, so I must be carrying less niggles/issues than previous races, which is unusual given the higher mileage. Nice easy loop today with Keith123, including some of the leafy suburbs of Foxrock Village (which seems a long long way from our erstwhile loops around Clondalkin). While in Clondalkin, some of the locals would look at us like we were worth robbin'. In Foxrock, they look at us like we're about to go robbin'. You can't really win.

Summary: 6 miles in 45 mins, @7:29/mile

meathcountysec

Best of luck on Monday.

claralara

Best of luck on Monday See you for the all important celebrations. Try save a few Galway Hookers for the rest of us!

Rolex_

Best of luck Monday. I'm hoping to have a leisurely stroll around this time and to enjoy the scenery so you'll probably be in the pub by the time I finish :cool:

average_runner

Best of luck on Monday

dev123

Well it looks like you finally pissed off the sungods!!!

When I met you down at the National Half you said that Dublin wasn't your goal race. I think you were trying to convince yourself at the time and I couldn't help thinking "The runner doth protest too much".

Best of luck on Monday. I hope the weather plays ball because you deserve a bit of luck with that end of things. Training-wise luck does not come into it. You have put in the training and I am sure you will reap every milligram of what you have sowed.

Enjoy the Hookers and I look forward to the race report.

Krusty_Clown

Claralara wrote:

Try save a few Galway Hookers for the rest of us!

Dev123 wrote:

Enjoy the Hookers

People are going to start thinking that I have a fetish for the ladies of the night. The sad reality is that McGrattans primarily sells that foreign muck, and the only nod towards Irish drinks are Bulmers and Ballygowen. Given the choice, I'd probably go for Ballygowan. But fear not. On the off-hand chance that I manage to wrestle some hard-fought seconds from my previous marathon encounter, I shall have a bottle of Belgium's holy-order's finest stashed in my bag, for consumption on the steps of Merrion Square South.