How do you perceive the overall work of the Gardai

Ian Beale

TheNog wrote: »

Topic of discussion - Do you trust the Gardai to do the job that is necessary to protect the public and investigate crime?

Trust them?Yes, only thing I wish that could be changed is their resources they have a tough job as it is and instead of getting an increase the government cuts their budget,how smart of them.

deadwood

I agree with you to a large extent, metman.

Just pointing out what is done here under the "Community Policing" umerella,ella,ella.

Anything that promotes good relations between gardai and young people who can see and talk face to face to a ocal guard is to be encouraged in my view.

The man on the beat covers all this by the very nature of the duty.

I would expect that all the non-member posters here would like to see a uniform guard on foot patrol in their area.

lehanemore

metman wrote: »

However I fail to see the point in police officers actually taking kids on day trips./......../. IMO not really the job of police to be taking kids on day trips.

I think it's so the kids will get to know a Garda, so that further down the line they have someone they can talk to if they find themselves going in the wrong direction, or report something to someone they feel they can trust.

TheNog

Many Community Gardai are involved in the Rapid Programme which is a Garda budgeted nationwide programme. The day to day running of the programme is operated by people with the necessary qualifications but a member (usually Community Garda) sits on the Board of Management. The local Superintendent will overall control of the budget. This programme operates to give youths who have caused trouble a chance to learn new skills such as computers etc and life skills to enable them to turn around their lives. On occasion day or weekend trips are organised and they use the community bus to transport instead of using a hired coach to save on costs.

Youths in the Rapid programme are referred on from the Juvenile Liasion Scheme.


The JLO has had great success since its inception with a something like 90% success rate towards non reoffending. The Rapid programme is another step for those to keep out of a life of crime.

metman

lehanemore wrote: »

I think it's so the kids will get to know a Garda, so that further down the line they have someone they can talk to if they find themselves going in the wrong direction, or report something to someone they feel they can trust.

Yeah I get that. Ordinarily most youths that are involved in wrong doing will get to know many police officers on a casual basis, and will be on close terms with the local copper. I still don't see why this would justify a police officer taking kids on a day trip. Sorry, but as a policeman I have better things to do with my time. Mostly this involves tackling crime.

There are plenty of partner agencies that can take problem kids on day trips.

Is this how you want your tax spent? Local police taking kids on day trips? Because it aint what local people want me doing here. Most people in the area I work want me arresting offenders and putting in doors on drugs dealers.

Terrontress

metman wrote: »

I work as a local officer, my remit, aside from regular 999 response, is to address local issues and be accountable to the people living in the area I look after. I don't take kids to fun camps, and I don't know any officers who do. As far as I'm concerned that has nothing to do with police work, and if there are cops doing that, then maybe they need to take a closer look at their role and the services available to them.

As a 'community officer' police officers should be looking at crime reduction strategy, often this means getting locals engaged, and more often than not this means engaging local youths. As a community copper the role is to facilitate this, i.e utilise local services to do so. It is not the role of the police to personally entertain local kids....well not where I am anyways.

Are you a PCSO?

metman

I wish I was; easy money.

I'm a Police Officer. I currently serve on a response team but am also tasked as a neighbourhood officer (community officer).

eroo

metman wrote: »

Sorry, but as a policeman I have better things to do with my time. Mostly this involves tackling crime.

There are plenty of partner agencies that can take problem kids on day trips.

By bringing kids on days out, they get to know, trust and like their local Gardai. This could be the difference between they getting involved in positive activities as a youth, or they being in court several times before their 17th birthday. So, if bringing kids out on day trips diverts some kids from a life of convictions after convictions, then it is not a waste imo.

As regards your second point above; it isn't those partner agencies who deal with local communities and attempt to crack down on criminal activity. The police do this, so crime prevention through Youth Scheme's can only benefit the police/Gardai, as it may divert kids in local communities away from a life of crime.

And as I already said, Community Gardai/officers should be involved with all kids, rather than just problem kids.

Dyr

Quite frankly, I dont the trust the gardai as an organisation at all. I've seen too many dodgy events and know too many people who have had even worse experiences. And this isnt about issuing speeding tickets or not being polite or such nonsense, this is fundamental issues of integrity.

Hopefully the ombudsman will change that over time.

metman

Bambi wrote: »

Quite frankly, I dont the trust the gardai as an organisation at all. I've seen too many dodgy events and know too many people who have had even worse experiences. And this isnt about issuing speeding tickets or not being polite or such nonsense, this is fundamental issues of integrity.

Hopefully the ombudsman will change that over time.

I can fully relate to your viewing people that have had bad experiences and that know people who have met with people who have been really badly treated. I fully respect what you're saying. Particularly when I know someone who met someone once that thinks he knew someone many years back that was a Guard, or maybe a lifeguard, but nonetheless he did something that ye should all be ashamed of!

Stop picking on the taxpayer for god sake. That was the lesson.

kerry4sam

TheNog wrote: »

Many Community Gardai are involved in the Rapid Programme which is a Garda budgeted nationwide programme. The day to day running of the programme is operated by people with the necessary qualifications but a member (usually Community Garda) sits on the Board of Management. The local Superintendent will overall control of the budget. This programme operates to give youths who have caused trouble a chance to learn new skills such as computers etc and life skills to enable them to turn around their lives. On occasion day or weekend trips are organised and they use the community bus to transport instead of using a hired coach to save on costs.

Youths in the Rapid programme are referred on from the Juvenile Liasion Scheme.


The JLO has had great success since its inception with a something like 90% success rate towards non reoffending. The Rapid programme is another step for those to keep out of a life of crime.

Down here their is a Kerry Youth Diocese Programme www.kdys.ie which
- provide a Youth Work service in communities on a needs basis, thus providing social, recreational and educational outlets aimed at meeting the needs of young people.
- support the development of progression routes for young people who are educationally disadvantaged, early school leavers, marginalised or at risk of being marginalised.
- work with organisations in the community who share a concern for the welfare of young people.

to name but three but the Gardai down here are running what is called
BAPADE Youth Project
A partnership programme between the KDYS and Garda Siochana, engaging young people, aged ten to seventeen, in a variety of activities includung leisure, sports, art & crafts, educational and developmental work.

I also disagree with the notion of Gardai taking children on trips: teachers organising trips/events with assistance of local Gardai-Great! eg. knowledge of road safety and all the above-mentioned have a vast array of benefits to the youth down this way, but day-trips...no, i just don't think it shows good time-management...I think children will learn more in the schools doing projects relating to community work/what the Gardai do locally and as mentioned earlier-road safety demonstrations with assistance of local Gardai

TheNog

kerry4sam wrote: »

I also disagree with the notion of Gardai taking children on trips: teachers organising trips/events with assistance of local Gardai-Great! eg. knowledge of road safety and all the above-mentioned have a vast array of benefits to the youth down this way, but day-trips...no, i just don't think it shows good time-management...I think children will learn more in the schools doing projects relating to community work/what the Gardai do locally and as mentioned earlier-road safety demonstrations with assistance of local Gardai

We are not talking about every week or anything near it. Colleague of mine does it and she goes on a weekend trip (2 nights) every 4-6 months. Have also seen one group brought to the Garda College on an open day too. The kids had a great time seeing all the equipment and college facilities.


TBH I don't see the harm in doing it.


Anyways we taken a detour, back on topic.

Terrontress

metman wrote: »

I wish I was; easy money.

I'm a Police Officer. I currently serve on a 999 response team but am also tasked as a neighbourhood specialist officer (community officer) as my policing experience lends itself to local problem solving.

At the same time I am also a public order trained officer, a CBRN responder, and am also firearms and explosives trained.

I've got a mate who is in the Met, in Islington, and he says the lack of respect for PCSOs is funny as they are basically powerless. They are not respected by the public and not respected by the sworn constables.

Dyr

metman wrote: »

I fully respect what you're saying. Particularly when I know someone who met someone once that thinks he knew someone many years back that was a Guard, or maybe a lifeguard, but nonetheless he did something that ye should all be ashamed of!

Thats supposed to be saracasm? The respect is mutual I'm sure.

TheNog

Bambi wrote: »

Thats supposed to be saracasm? The respect is mutual I'm sure.

well in fairness you did make a very vague point. can you be a little precise and give us an example of what you have experienced?

AlekSmart

Duplicate Post deleted.

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

Certainly is an eye-opening thread.
Its sad to see the debate dividing on "traditional" lines with not a lot of common ground visible.

I feel that the present structure of AGS is essentially incapable of dealing with 21st century policing demands.
This is largely a problem of training and ongoing motivation,the modern thinking on which appears to threaten the most senior of Garda administrators.

Unfortunately the structure of AGS is of itself inextricably bound up with the established Civil Service in the form of the Department of Justice which as most similar bodies do,marches to a completely different drumbeat to what most citizens might expect.

My gut feeling is that modern society has developed in ways far removed from that which can be effectively policed by a Civic Guard alone.

As metman and others have pointed out the roles of specialist units such as Public Order,Aerial or Mounted are exactly that...Specialized.
This specialization delivers efficiency by allowing for committed,focused and effective responses to whatever situation they are trained to resolve.

Our Department of Justice has singularly failed to plan for the alterations in public attitudes and in social norms which have made the traditional "Village Bobby" or all knowing local Sergeant largely redundant.

I dont feel it is of any value to compare other juristictions forces such as the French CRS with any aspects of the Irish policing scene.

The CRS is HIGHLY specialized and fully trained,motivated and UTILIZED for very specific and highly dangerous Security situations up to and including full scale rioting.
Its members would not in the general run of things be expected to suddenly transform from a caring community officer role into that of a riot control officer.

The CRS officer would certainly not have to wait for a Transit Van to be sent around the City to pick up enough similarly trained officers to form a unit ready to address a public order situation.

It would also be completely understood by the law abiding Local populace that standing around to "observe" a CRS detachment in operation would not be a recommended course of action.

Some years ago,in the Montreuil area of Paris my Hotel Receptionist nearly had a coronary when I attempted to go out to observe what I took to be a street brawl with several Police vehicles in attendance
He was quite clear with me....."These are not Police,they are CRS and will Clear the street of everybody..including You"-Stay inside until they are finished"
What struck me and remained with me was his absolute certainty of what this unit would do.

This clear definition of tasks and of the manner in which they are carried out is not something we in Ireland have a good grasp of and I would suggest that it is something which we should perhaps consider as AGS struggles to come to terms with 21st century policing demands.

There is also the equally large problem of just what to do with our Judicial system itself as it attempts to define its own role in a society that increasingly confuses Law with Justice.

It`s noticible that much of our European neighbours policing results in far more On-The Spot style of retribution particularly although not exclusively in Road Traffic Offences.
Magistrates,Prefectures,Mobile Police Posts,Mobile Courtrooms are only some of the devices utilized to ensure that Courts time can be far more effectively used to the benefit of everybody rather than as some form of meeting place where young "old lags" can keep up with each others career development.

Thats about it really...Generally I would trust the Gardai,but I know only too well the constraints they operate within,all of which were perhaps required in the 1940`s and 50`s but in 2008 are now just an anachronism.

metman

AlekSmart wrote: »

This is largely a problem of training and ongoing motivation,the modern thinking on which appears to threaten the most senior of Garda administrators.

Unfortunately the structure of AGS is of itself inextricably bound up with the established Civil Service in the form of the Department of Justice which as most similar bodies do,marches to a completely different drumbeat to what most citizens might expect.

Thats about it really...Generally I would trust the Gardai,but I know only too well the constraints they operate within,all of which were perhaps required in the 1940`s and 50`s but in 2008 are now just an anachronism.

I think AlekSmart makes some valid points there. However I think AGS is changing so as to be fit for purpose in the 21st century.

When I was growing up in Dublin AGS was an organisation that was far removed from the average law abiding person. Even as someone who was interested in joining, one was faced with an uphill struggle to obtain information on the force, it was such a closed shop. There was no such thing as recruitment brochures, websites (like this one) or careers-days or open events. The force also only recruited once every 5 years or so and it was recognised that unless 'ya had a bit a pull' you could forget about getting in. Even going down to the local station and asking for information would be met with suspicion. I've no doubt that had there been a boards.ie back then, few members would have posted for fear of being labelled a whistleblower. Fortunately that was the 20th century and I believe things have moved on significantly since then.

I take the view that the best thing that's happened to AGS in the last ten years has been the investment in recruitment. The only way an organsiation will evolve and adapt is if it is regularly injected with new blood, i.e, young people who are representative of, and drawn from, a wide cross-section of the community. This influx of young people also means the next generation of skippers and inspectors will be made up of people, in many cases, with a more open-mind than those who have gone before, not to mention a better standard of education, and knowledge of world affairs including an awareness of policing practices in other jurisdictions. This ultimately leads to questions being asked and working practices being altered. For instance look at recent changes to AGS; body armour, asp batons, and now the issuing of OC spray. Younger in-service Guards no doubt look at their counterparts in the UK and on the continent and wonder why there is a difference in kit when the role performed, and associated danger, is the same. This is then spoken about, initially in the canteen or pub, but eventually filters up to the management who ultimately have to address the concerns of members....so 'they want taser, give them OC' etc. And the job moves forward and evolves.

Equally AGS is moving forward as regards accountability and transparency. There is now an Inspectorate and an Ombudsman. Yes both agencies are in their infancy, but equally what a leap forward that such agencies now are in place and working, bringing the force in line with law enforcement agencies throughout Europe. These groups lend themselves to fostering better public confidence in the police service and the Ombudsman affords those who previously had little faith in a system of 'police investigating police' an independent and impartial adjudicator to which they can turn. This, in my view, is progress.

Equally there is now more information available on AGS than ever before both officially, such as open days at the college, and updates on the official website, and unofficially through sites like this where better understanding is facilitated through members answering questions and telling people about their experiences. The latter, while not officially sanctioned, is a reflection of how the modern generation of police are more willing to speak about their job and to try and educate and enlighten.

I think AGS still have some way to go in being seen to be as open and accountable as similar policing organisations elsewhere in the world, but the force has moved on significantly in the last number of years so as to make it capable of performing its role in the 21st century whilst maintaining public confidence. The only way it will continue to do, in my view, is if significant investment in equipment and IT is made. This is what members themselves want, as well as what the public demands.

TheNog

AlekSmart wrote: »

I feel that the present structure of AGS is essentially incapable of dealing with 21st century policing demands.
This is largely a problem of training and ongoing motivation,the modern thinking on which appears to threaten the most senior of Garda administrators.

+1

In the past current technology has been viewed by near suspicion by the AGS management but I feel confident that this is changing with our current Commissioner and the Inspectorate. We have alot of catching up to do to modernise the organisation both in technical and personnel resources.

What we need is an internal program where suggestions from rank and file members are used to increase efficiency and therefore cut costs. In all multi-national companies I worked in had these programs and believe me significant costs were reduced which were then redirected to other areas for development.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Unfortunately the structure of AGS is of itself inextricably bound up with the established Civil Service in the form of the Department of Justice which as most similar bodies do,marches to a completely different drumbeat to what most citizens might expect.

The Civil Service it would appear is a slow moving giant which is both ineffective and slowly self destructing.
One such area of contention with me is the fact that it is a civilian body who buys our patrol cars, which if I'm not mistaken, choses patrol cars without much consultation with frontline members. A case in point is the amount of Ford Focus cars there are in the Force. These cars are okay for point A to B transport only but are not suitable for general patrolling of a district yet they are used for both. In many districts if the district car is out of action then the 1.4L Focus is the replacement.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Our Department of Justice has singularly failed to plan for the alterations in public attitudes and in social norms which have made the traditional "Village Bobby" or all knowing local Sergeant largely redundant.

This part I don't agree with fully. Most crimes in the country are not solved by using CCTV or forensics but by information from the public. This information is invaluable to any investigation and is unfortunately missing in many of the murders we see in our country and this is why several cases remain unsolved.

To get this information we need Community Policing on a bigger scale. It is a throw back to past policing styles but I feel it is still very relevant to policing in the 21st Century. We cannot operate effectively without the help of the public.

andrewh5

angelfire9 wrote: »

You're kidding right?
Speed does not cause accidents?
Of course it does, driving too fast for road conditions (whether it be a bad road surface or bad weather) causes accidents
Flying down a bad road at 120km per hour and a dog runs across the road in front of you you swerve to avoid and hit the ditch... that's an accident caused by speeding, if speeding doesn't cause accidents why do the RSA and AGS spend so much time trying to reduce speed on our roads

Certainly there are other factors that cause accidents including driver fatigue, driving under the influence, careless driving but speed is a massive factor in RTA's in ireland

I said INAPPROPRIATE speed does!
Here is a couple of examples for you:
1/ Driving on the M50 at 3 AM at 125KPH with no other traffic (or very light).
2/ Driving past a school at the legal limit for the road as the children are leaving school.

Which would you consider to be inappropriate speed?

If you answer 1 you would be wrong.

metman

andrewh5 wrote: »

I said INAPPROPRIATE speed does!

I hear this term bandied about quite a bit; inappropriate speed. Hamster Hammond from top gear is also an advocate of the 'its not speed, but inappropriate speed that kills' school of thought. Funnily enough it was speed, or perhaps inappropriate speed that nearly killed him last year.

To be honest I think the term 'inappropriate speed' is arrogant boll*cks. You could not find a more subjective term if you tried.

As regards doing mach 2 on the M50 at 4am with no other traffic about; when you lapse in concentration, come off the road, get killed and wind up minus a head, should I tell your next of kin that you were speeding, or that you were inappropriately speeding?

Complete rubbish and utter fiction. Speed kills, simple as.

CO19

metman wrote: »

To be honest I think the term 'inappropriate speed' is arrogant boll*cks. You could not find a more subjective term if you tried.

Speed kills, simple as.

Exactly speeding is speeding there's no right way or safe way to speed.

deadwood

andrewh5 wrote: »

1/ Driving on the M50 at 3 AM at 125KPH with no other traffic (or very light).
quote]

If you ever get a ticket for doing 5km over the speed limit, i'll pay the fine!

civdef

It's amazing how few fatal RTCs involve cars being driven at reasonable / legal speeds.

yayamark

civdef wrote: »

It's amazing how few fatal RTCs involve cars being driven at reasonable / legal speeds.

Have you stats to show that?

The last few fatals ive been too have had nothing to do with speed.

I would agree with the poster re Inappropriate speed.

Not everyone who speeds kills

Any one who inappropriately speeds is much more likely to be involved in a rtc than some one who is just speeding.

civdef

I'm surprised at that yaymark, no stats tbh, just going on what I perceive to be the case from my own experience.

donvito99

The speed limits at the mo are to high, there just like that so you can get to places quicker, rather then safely.

Eru

yayamark wrote: »

Have you stats to show that?

The last few fatals ive been too have had nothing to do with speed.

I would agree with the poster re Inappropriate speed.

Not everyone who speeds kills

Any one who inappropriately speeds is much more likely to be involved in a rtc than some one who is just speeding.

Not everyone that drink drives kills either.
Not everyone that takes drugs OD's.
Not everyone that attacks another person kills them.

Whats your point? Too be honest this arguement in defence of speeding is bull**** and primarily used by little boy racers defending their 'superior' driving skills. Bottom line, faster you go the harder the hit, longer the stopping distance, longer the reaction time to distance travelled ratio and less chance of the kid getting out of your way.

What is it the ad says? "Hit me at 50 I have a 80% chance of dying. Hit me at 40 I have an 80% chance of living".

deadwood

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Too be honest this arguement in defence of speeding is bull**** and primarily used by little boy racers defending their 'superior' driving skills.quote]
But their boss in the Chinese gets very annoyed if they're late with deliveries.

Terrontress

civdef wrote: »

It's amazing how few fatal RTCs involve cars being driven at reasonable / legal speeds.

It's amazing how few instances of speeding results in fatal rtcs.