Is a peaceful 32 united ireland possible

djpbarry

dante18 wrote: »

Kerry is not my country. It's part of my country though. It's the same with the north of Ireland.

Eh, no, it isn't. That's your problem right there. Have a look a this here map; see the thick black line? That there is an international boundary between two neighbouring countries, the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

dante18 wrote: »

Ulster is a province of Ireland. The fact that 6 of its counties are temporarily under the jurisdiction of a different government from the rest of us doesn't change that.

Define temporarily. I was of the understanding that Northern Ireland has been under British rule for several hundred years.

dante18 wrote: »

I don't assume that you're a man. I don't think I've ever said anything to make you think I did assume that.

Well, yes, you did. You said of my views on a united Ireland; "Not only is it unpatriotic but it's downright unmanly." Seems quite clear to that you have assumed me to be male and not much of a male at that.

dante18 wrote: »

Real men like me are patriotic and have a sense of pride in our country.

And real men like me are not terribly patriotic and believe in democracy. See, I can do that to. Doesn't really mean very much though does it? Certainly doesn’t constitute and argument.

JWAD

dante18 wrote: »

Real men like me are patriotic and have a sense of pride in our country.

You say this under a pseudonym, anonymously on the internet and behind the protection of a firewall??

Hilarious, Man!
:eek: :rolleyes:

Villain

The problems with democracy is it only needs a majoirty i.e. 51% of those allowed to Vote up north could vote in favour of a United Ireland, that would leave 49% unhappy and I would bet some of that 49% would show their anger by means of action.

I believe Ireland should be united, but I don't think its will be possible during my lifetime, if only the plantation of Ulster had never occured ......

luckyfrank

I dont know if its just me but the celtic tiger has not only brought with it cash and prosperity but also a wave of unnationlistic generation of people to

Today's soicety is all about guicci and prada and all that crap people are more concerned about there frappichino and bagel's instead of what is really important !!

National reconcillation and irish unity with freedom and respect for all traditions

What need you being come to sense,
But fumble in a greasy till,
And add the halfpence to the pence
And prayer to shivering prayer, until
You have dried the marrow from the bone?
For men were born to pray and save:
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
It's with O'Leary in the grave.

Yet they were of a different kind,
The names that stilled your childish play,
They have gone about the world like wind,
But little time had they to pray
For whom the hangman's rope was spun,
And what, God help us, could they save?
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
It's with O'Leary in the grave.

Was it for this the wild geese spread
They grey wing upon every tide;
For this that all the blood was shed,
For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
And Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone,
All that delirium of the brave?
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
It's with O'Leary in the grave.

Yet could we turn the years again,
And call those exiles as they were
In all their loneliness and pain,
You'd cry, "Some woman's yellow hair
Has maddened every mother's son":
They weighed so lightly what they gave
But let them be they're dead and gone,
They're with O'Leary in the grave.

W B Yeats


As applicable now as when it was written

stovelid

A united Ireland could well be achieved by peaceful means, but I don't think it would be possible for it to survive; not yet. The divisions of the troubles - and of unionist misrule before that - will have to be literally bred out of Northern Irish society.

I think it will be a good start when the current 40+ age group (the ones with the most vivid, lived experience of the troubles) pass on from society, and especially politics and policing.

djpbarry

luckyfrank wrote: »

I dont know if its just me but the celtic tiger has not only brought with it cash and prosperity but also a wave of unnationlistic generation of people to

And that's bad because?

luckyfrank

djpbarry wrote: »

And that's bad because?

You can tell alot about a person who cares for nothing but himself

stovelid

luckyfrank wrote: »

people are more concerned about there frappichino and bagel's instead of what is really important !!

Steady on Frank. Wannabe students in 80's Tallaght had to read their conspicuously angled Penguin Classics and trendy political tomes in Abrakebabra ffs. Let's not knock the arrival of decent coffee shops.:D

Seriously though: the downturn in nationalist fervour is a good thing in many ways. People can think about the North without recourse to the troubles. You can be proud to be Irish without being nationalistic.

ardmacha

That there is an international boundary between two neighbouring countries, the UK and the Republic of Ireland.

I think you are confusing countries and States. Scotland and England are different counties in the same State. Ireland is a country divided between two States.

A peaceful united Ireland is possible, this is simply the return of normality. As the present difference is artificial, then through entropy a United Ireland is inevitable unless there are forces against it, and no real forces exist. The Good Friday agreement sets out principles by which everyone can be involved. This makes peace more likely than not, and in the absence of conflict people will see themselves are having more in common, in a slow and unexciting way.

luckyfrank

stovelid wrote: »

Steady on Frank. Wannabe students in 80's Tallaght had to read their conspicuously angled Penguin Classics and trendy political tomes in Abrakebabra ffs. Let's not knock the arrival of decent coffee shops.:D

Seriously though: the downturn in nationalist fervour is a good thing in many ways. People can think about the North without recourse to the troubles. You can be proud to be Irish without being nationalistic.

I dont know if you read the previous threads in this and the other irish unity thread but there was a number of people clearly stating they woudnt want now or in the future a united ireland and these are irish people saying that :eek:

I never met people like this but im gonna throw a bone at it and say they were are probably fed with a silver spoon or live in postal addresses with even numbers in dublin

Im very moderate in out-look but for some people to just be so nonshalant about irish unity makes sad

Acacia

Camelot wrote: »

Speaking on behalf of moderate Unionism, I would agree to a 'United Ireland' as long as the Union Flag & the National Anthem GSTQ is retained, my point being that being a 'Unionist' means valuing the Union with Britain.



But if the South re-joined the Commonwealth then . . . . . ?

IMO, if there was a United Ireland there should be no union or link with Britain , so I don't think keeping the Unionist flag and National Anthem would be feasible. Or indeed marches on the 12th of July.To be perfectly honest, in a 32 county Ireland, Unionism has no place. It would sort of defeat the purpose of having a United, independent Ireland, would it not?

As for the South re-joining the Commonwealth....don't think so, either. Why would the Republic do such a thing after all the effort and bloodshed of the past to gain independence?

I realize that not everybody will agree with me on this, and I respect their opinions. I hope I have not offended anybody, that was not my intention. I'm just giving my honest opinion on the matter. I hope I will live to see a United Ireland, achieved by peaceful means.

luckyfrank

Acacia wrote: »

IMO, if there was a United Ireland there should be no union or link with Britain , so I don't think keeping the Unionist flag and National Anthem would be feasible. Or indeed marches on the 12th of July.To be perfectly honest, in a 32 county Ireland, Unionism has no place. It would sort of defeat the purpose of having a United, independent Ireland, would it not?

As for the South re-joining the Commonwealth....don't think so, either. Why would the Republic do such a thing after all the effort and bloodshed of the past to gain independence?

I realize that not everybody will agree with me on this, and I respect their opinions. I hope I have not offended anybody, that was not my intention. I'm just giving my honest opinion on the matter. I hope I will live to see a United Ireland, achieved by peaceful means.

There is a sizeable popualtion on this island who consider themselves british if it meant having a united ireland id support rejoining the commenwealth to an extent to accommadate them. And why not have the 12th as a national holiday ?? Just because its not your culture doesnt mean it cant be celebrated by those who wish to

Fratton Fred

Acacia wrote: »

IMO, if there was a United Ireland there should be no union or link with Britain , so I don't think keeping the Unionist flag and National Anthem would be feasible. Or indeed marches on the 12th of July.To be perfectly honest, in a 32 county Ireland, Unionism has no place. It would sort of defeat the purpose of having a United, independent Ireland, would it not?

As for the South re-joining the Commonwealth....don't think so, either. Why would the Republic do such a thing after all the effort and bloodshed of the past to gain independence?

I realize that not everybody will agree with me on this, and I respect their opinions. I hope I have not offended anybody, that was not my intention. I'm just giving my honest opinion on the matter. I hope I will live to see a United Ireland, achieved by peaceful means.

How many unionists are there in Australia, India, Trinidad, Canada, Fiji.......

India shed a lot of blood for independance and they are a secular republic, are they foolish because they are in the commonwealth? what do you know that they don't?

Acacia

luckyfrank wrote: »

There is a sizeable popualtion on this island who consider themselves british if it meant having a united ireland id support rejoining the commenwealth to an extent to accommadate them. And why not have the 12th as a national holiday ?? Just because its not your culture doesnt mean it cant be celebrated by those who wish to

Here's what I think about the whole thing and I'll probably catch shít for this, but here goes:

If you consider yourself British, fair play to you. But this is Ireland, not Britain, I'm afraid. I'd be in favor of a 32-county independent Ireland with no union with Britain. If the British people here don't like that, they can (with all due respect) live in England.

Why should I, or anybody else, agree to be part of a foreign Commonwealth to accommodate people who don't even want to be considered Irish in the first place? Seems like a bit of step backwards if you ask me.

And I disagree with the idea of the 12th as a national holiday because of what it represents. Yes, it's not my culture, why should it be part of my country's national identity by having it as a national holiday? I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed march if they want to, but I don't agree with it being a national holiday.

Again, no offense intended to anybody here.

Fratton Fred

Acacia wrote: »

Here's what I think about the whole thing and I'll probably catch shít for this, but here goes:

If you consider yourself British, fair play to you. But this is Ireland, not Britain, I'm afraid. I'd be in favor of a 32-county independent Ireland with no union with Britain. If the British people here don't like that, they can (with all due respect) live in England.

Why should I, or anybody else, agree to be part of a foreign Commonwealth to accommodate people who don't even want to be considered Irish in the first place? Seems like a bit of step backwards if you ask me.

And I disagree with the idea of the 12th as a national holiday because of what it represents. Yes, it's not my culture, why should it be part of my country's national identity by having it as a national holiday? I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed march if they want to, but I don't agree with it being a national holiday.

Again, no offense intended to anybody here.

so given the choice between joining the commonwealth and keeping Ireland divided, you would rather have a divided country?

Acacia

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many unionists are there in Australia, India, Trinidad, Canada, Fiji.......

India shed a lot of blood for independance and they are a secular republic, are they foolish because they are in the commonwealth? what do you know that they don't?

Never said anybody was foolish for being in the Commonwealth. I would just rather not be. I'm not concerned about Australia or India, etc. I'm concerned about Ireland.

(Sorry for the double post.)

Acacia

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so given the choice between joining the commonwealth and keeping Ireland divided, you would rather have a divided country?

It shouldn't be a question of being in the Commonwealth or keeping it divided. I'm talking about a hypothetical situation. Ideally, I'd like an independent, united Ireland.

But I doubt that's going to be possible any time soon.

Fratton Fred

Acacia wrote: »

It shouldn't be a question of being in the Commonwealth or keeping it divided. I'm talking about a hypothetical situation. Ideally, I'd like an independent, united Ireland.

But I doubt that's going to be possible any time soon.

I understnad that, but somewhere along the line compromises have got to be made.

I must admit, I don't understand the 12th being a public holiday, it only applies to NI, not the rest of the UK. In England we don't even get St. Georges day off.

luckyfrank

Im comfortable enough with my own national identity that it wouldnt bother me one iota if we rejoined the commenwealth or something similar ffs were financially married to the uk as it is and relations between the two countries have never being better. Again its not something id do just for the sake of it i believe that the people of the orange tradition have the same right as anyone on this island we have a shared history however bloody it is and id strech over backways to make them feel comfortable in a 32 county ireland

Acacia

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I understnad that, but somewhere along the line compromises have got to be made.

I must admit, I don't understand the 12th being a public holiday, it only applies to NI, not the rest of the UK. In England we don't even get St. Georges day off.

Yes, it's not ideal world, unfortunately. I wish people could be more civil and discuss things (like we are doing) with respect for the other person's opinion.:) Perhaps, a lot of violence could be avoided.

Hmm, I always thought St.George's day was a public holiday in England. :)

Zambia

There can never be a peacefull 32 county solution ..try and live in the North in a unionist enclave and its plain to see. They link to the Union is all they have in some areas.

Unionist murals are still touched up , with new hooded gunmen being painted on walls. Slogans of not surrendering and never never never still appear.

The UK , well Scotland and England pay for this part of the world through the nose every day. Northern Ireland has even been classed as in a good position to weather the credit crunch as pretty much everyone here works in the civil service or for a service industry branch of it.

The bill for Northern Ireland's DLA is enormous, the NHS is in overdrive due to a staple diet of pasty suppers and alchol washed down with nicotine. The cliam culture here is rampant. The element of the north you need to concern yourself about i the northeners you never meet down south (or outside there own areas)

Add to this the down turn in spending money /cheap holidays/ jobs and distractions here will lead to a resurgence in republican terrorist activity as idle hands are the devils playthings. This will lead to a resurgent unionist back lash.

Don't kid yourself into thinking this is all behind us. The north is the curse of a deluded old empire and a naive young goverment. It has by no means run its course.

djpbarry

luckyfrank wrote: »

You can tell alot about a person who cares for nothing but himself

You talking to me?

luckyfrank wrote: »

I never met people like this but im gonna throw a bone at it and say they were are probably fed with a silver spoon or live in postal addresses with even numbers in dublin

You'd be wrong on both counts, but that sort of attitude is no less than I would expect from a nationalist; stick people into a particular political box based on their background. Maybe some people can think for themselves?

Acacia wrote: »

If you consider yourself British, fair play to you. But this is Ireland, not Britain, I'm afraid.

What exactly will it take for nationalists to accept that the north of this island is British (and has been for quite some time)?

Acacia

djpbarry wrote: »

What exactly will it take for nationalists to accept that the north of this island is British (and has been for quite some time)?

Meh...it's an imaginary boundary. It doesn't physically exist. It's on the island of Ireland. There are people there who consider themselves Irish. So somebody decided to draw an imaginary line there...it's no more British than Spain is British, imo.

djpbarry

Acacia wrote: »

Meh...it's an imaginary boundary.

As are most international boundaries.

Acacia wrote: »

It's on the island of Ireland.

I'm not sure why that matters; if somebody dug a canal along the border to form 2 islands, would that make a difference?

Acacia wrote: »

There are people there who consider themselves Irish.

There are people in just about every country on this planet who consider themselves Irish.

Acacia wrote: »

...it's no more British than Spain is British, imo.

Is Spain governed from Westminster?

Acacia

djpbarry wrote: »

As are most international boundaries.

I'm not sure why that matters; if somebody dug a canal along the border to form 2 islands, would that make a difference?

There are people in just about every country on this planet who consider themselves Irish.

Is Spain governed from Westminster?

1. Yes, but the nation has been divided in two from what it originally was.

2. No, it would be an artificial divide. There is no natural boundary between the North and South.

3. Yes, but they're not necessarily of Irish ancestry, unlike the people in the North. The North was originally part of Ireland. I still think of it as Ireland.

4. Nope, but judging by your logic, Westminster would have as much right to govern Spain as Northern Ireland. Sure there's only a body of water dividing Spain from England after all?


When will Unionists realize- Northern Ireland is British only on paper. It was Ireland first.;)

LordSutch

Acacia wrote: »

IMO, if there was a United Ireland there should be no union or link with Britain , so I don't think keeping the Unionist flag and National Anthem would be feasible. Or indeed marches on the 12th of July.To be perfectly honest, in a 32 county Ireland, Unionism has no place. It would sort of defeat the purpose of having a United, independent Ireland, would it not?

That sounds like Zero compromise to me :cool:

Acacia wrote: »

As for the South re-joining the Commonwealth....don't think so, either. Why would the Republic do such a thing after all the effort and bloodshed of the past to gain independence?

No chance at the Commonwealth either then :rolleyes:

Acacia wrote: »

I realize that not everybody will agree with me on this, and I respect their opinions. I hope I have not offended anybody, that was not my intention. I'm just giving my honest opinion on the matter. I hope I will live to see a United Ireland, achieved by peaceful means.

Listen here Acacia, my original Post was constructed with compromise in mind, with the questionmark after the commonwealth (just a glimmer of light) to the suggestion of a future united ireland - but even that, or even marking the 12th you shoot down in flames . . . so presumably you want some kind of gealic speaking, roman catholic, tricolour waving, insular, anti-british country, devoid of all britishness & unionists?

Honestly Acacia - If you really want any kind of unity on this island, there must be some kind of compromise between the two tribes.

Acacia

Camelot wrote: »

Listen here Acacia, my original Post was constructed with compromise in mind, with the questionmark after the commonwealth (just a glimmer of light) to the suggestion of a future united ireland - but even that, or even marking the 12th you shoot down in flames . . .

Presumably you want some kind of gealic speaking, roman catholic, tricolour waving, insular, anti-british country, devoids of all britishness?

Honestly Acacia - If you really want any kind of unity on theis island, there must be some kind of compromise between the two tribes.

So much for respecting the opinions of others. Just because you disagree with me you don't have to talk to me like I'm a naughty child.''Listen here...honestly...", etc.

'Presumably', is right. You're jumping to conclusions. I would like an Ireland where Gaelige is spoken as well as English. However, just because I don't want a political union with Britain it doesn't mean I want the country to be 'insular' or 'anti-British'. What a black-and-white way to view things. So, if I don't support the Union with Britain I'm some of 'tri-colour waving' loony? Compromise, indeed.:pac:


I just don't feel comfortable with having Ireland as a Commonwealth nation, or having the 12th as a national holiday, given the history of the country.

I don't see what the crime is in not wanting to be linked with a foreign country (Britain.) Perfectly natural, one would think, given the historical context.

LordSutch

Acacia wrote: »

I just don't feel comfortable with having Ireland as a Commonwealth nation, or having the 12th as a national holiday, given the history of the country.

But if you really crave a "United Ireland", then you are going to have to make compromises with the Unionists up North - are you not? and entertain the 12th in the same way as you expect them to celebrate St Patrick

Acacia wrote: »

I don't see what the crime is in not wanting to be linked with a foreign country (Britain.) Perfectly natural, one would think, given the historical context.

Linked with a foreign country? you mean Britain? the island just 22 miles away (next door)? where there are tens of thousnads of first generation Irish + second generation + third . . . where one third of this island has more in common with than with the Republic? - & your reference to the historical context being what? the fact that without Britain we would be speaking German?

You just gotta think of some kinda 'Centrepoint' or meeting in the middle, you just cant wash away centuries of tradition & say "No more 12th - No more Unionism - No more Britishness" . . .

If you really want a United Ireland - then you must meet the Unionists half way!

Acacia

Camelot wrote: »

But if you really crave a "United Ireland", then you are going to have to make compromises with the Unionists up North - are you not? and entertain the 12th in the same way as you expect them to celebrate St Patricks Day!



Linked with a foreign country? you mean Britain? the island 22 miles next door? where there are tens of thousnads of first generation Irish + second generation + third . . . where one third of this island has more in common with than with the Republic? - & your reference to the historical context being what? the fact that without Britain we would be speaking German?

All this talk of compromise- well, I'm just not comfortable with being part of the Commonwealth. That's just how I feel. I also don't like being forced to feel like I should be grateful that we would get a choice between a united Ireland and being part of the Commonwealth. The way I see it, uniting Ireland would just be returning the country to its original form. Nobody would be doing us any favors by doing so.

Secondly, I don't expect Unionists in the North to celebrate St.Patrick's Day. And I won't be celebrating the 12th. Ever.

Yeah, I do mean Britain. France is extremely close to Britain, does that make it any less foreign? There are lots of Indian immigrants in Britain too- does that make Britain any less foreign to India?

The historical context would be the Plantations, the Troubles, the general bad vibes between the two countries. :pac:

Does it matter what foreign language we're forced to speak? German, French, Spanish, English...none of which would be our native language.

Again, I'd like to stress that I'm not anti-British, and I've no problem with British people. I just wouldn't want a political union with Britain.

Kama

If you really want a United Ireland - then you must meet the Unionists half way!

Agree completely. Its that or try and think about the Gardai holding down Ballymena hehe...The Armalite and the Ballot Box just isn't enough...Competing ethinic claims for exclusive sovereignty are a recipe for bloodshed.

I just wouldn't want a political union with Britain.

Then there won't be a united Ireland; the only possible compromise-formation involves some kind of sharing and pooling of sovereignty. One trajectory would be devolution of the 'Celtic Fringe' of the UK and Ireland joining in a Commonwealth of the British Isles.