Is a peaceful 32 united ireland possible

djpbarry

Irlbo wrote: »

...Sinn Fein and the republican have a very strong presence and enjoy huge support in the South...

No they don't.

Irlbo wrote: »

...the number of votes SF get in the elections in testament to that...

Sinn Féin received less than 7% of the vote in the last general election, so roughly 13 out of every 14 people would rather vote for someone other than Sinn Féin. That's hardly what I would call strong support.

Irlbo

For someone from Dublin 7 I find it funny you say that,Sinn Fein has a vast huge membership in that area,and a strong network has been formed there,Im from there myself,and throughout Dublin SF have an extremely strong grassroots with massive funding,membership and support,maybe you never heard of Nicky Kehoe,Christy Burke,Every county in Ireland has cumanns in specific areas,and even in areas were the support is small there is the odd shinner around,you rely too much on polls and statistics my friend,they dont prove anything,have close look at the general election results in each county,thousands upon thousands vote Sinn Fein,just the PR system doesnt work too well in Sinn Feins favour,FF and FG areant to happy giving them their surplus votes

andrewh5

SF's vote base is largely comprised of Celtic shirt wearing individuals who should be grateful that breathing is automatic. That and ex RA members who still think they can push people around with impunity.

They will never have the respect of the majority of voters in the south irrespective of what their supporters claim. Too many people were murdered and maimed by the RA for SF to be acceptable to voters in the south.

Irlbo

HAHAHAHA,all Sinn Fein supporters are Celtic shirt wearing scumbags,what a vast generalisation if ever I heard it,you know nothing of Sinn Fein or the 'Ra' as you put it,although Im not a member anymore,Sinn Fein is far from your description,nobody of that elk would not be even given a sign up sheet nevermind join,you need stop reading the independent and get off you computer for awhile chum

djpbarry

Irlbo wrote: »

...you rely too much on polls and statistics my friend,they dont prove anything...

I'm going to have to disagree with you there, seeing as how the national poll that is the general election determines the make-up of the government.

Irlbo wrote: »

...have close look at the general election results in each county,thousands upon thousands vote Sinn Fein...

Yes, but 10's of thousands more voted for Labour and 100's of thousands more voted for Fianna Gael or Fianna Fáil. As I've already said, whether you like to admit it or not, the overwhelming majority of people in this country do not support Sinn Féin, as is evidenced by election results, the most authoritative poll there is.

Irlbo

You seem abit scant replying to my post my friend,you saying that 1000s upon 1000s voted for Fianna Fail while Sinn Fein doesnt recieve as much,this be relevant to you since you a Dublin Central man,last general election Mary Lou MacDonald,Cyprian Brady.....Cyprian Brady gets apporx 800 votes,MacDonald recieves appox 4000,but in the end Brady gets the seat,explain how thats fair,and how Brady despite having 5 times less votes then MacDonald gets the seat,thats why the PR system is bollox,the people of Dublin Central voted in their droves for Bertie Ahern,but also for Mary Lou,somehow a man who got a miniscule amount of votes gets in,its a prime example,and why do you think Sinn Fein is the only representation of republicanism,there are people of all persuasions who would be republican and nationalist minded,including those in Fianna Fail

luckyfrank

Dont worry irlbo there is quite alot of people on here masquerading as nationlists but they all in my opinion are pushing a unionist agenda which is fine

The problem is that these people except camelot who openly admits he/she's a unionist is that they cannot see themselves in the light they are portaying they think they are neutral but there not there closet unionists

There is no shame in it but there is shame in hiding it

Irlbo

Too true my friend,I dont understand why these people dont pack their bags and head over to the motherland,because it seems they dont like the country of their birth and be much happier with their English bretren,they are clearly unionists despite the denials,isnt a unionist someone who wants the 6 counties to maintain its union within the UK and supports that view???

ongarite

The majority of people who support Sinn Fein in Dublin as you say, don't do it for a love of a united Ireland, they do because Sinn Fein go into these disadvantaged areas and work on the ground to help these communities.

They are the only party besides maybe Joe Higgins, that actively work and canvas in these "poorer" areas of Dublin and even do some great work for these communities and I commend them for that.

zuroph

if you're not with us you're against us eh? :rolleyes:

Greyfox

You need to read this again Irlbo

Camelot wrote: »

The border exists 'physically & psychologically' for historical, cultural, and practical reasons whether you or I like it or not Irlbo . . .

The majority of people up North see themselves as having more in common with England, Scotland & Wales than with the Republic.

Thats just the way it is.

Your saying I have no pride in my country....I'm a catholic from the South, still know some Irish, been to GAA matches etc...and your calling me a Unionist just because I live in the real world where the Republic of Ireland is not part of the UK and Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

I am neither a Unionist or a Nationalist, The fact is theirs only a small population difference between the two in the North theirfor the wishes of both have to be respected and this has to be the starting point for any talk of a United Ireland! As I said I love my country dearly and could never live abroad and you say I don't just because I know theirs 26 counties in it?

"maintaining a border" ah yes that border, it's usually a big black line on maps that's very hard to miss that indicates your going into a different country.
It's not a strange foreign land, it's just a very friendly and different country
that has a different flag, anthem, currency, and a different political party running their country.

As you well know the support for Sinn Fein is absolutely miles behind that of Finna Fail or Finna Gail. Theirs also the fact that when Sinn Fein look for support in the Republic they make it very clear that their not just all about a United Ireland, they have other aims that actually effect day to day life in the Republic

I don't want to pack my bags and live in England as I love my country too much. As it happens I don't love England but sure how can an Irishman say bad things about England whan the vast, vast majority of Ireland watch English football, read English newspapers and watch English TV?

djpbarry

Irlbo wrote: »

last general election Mary Lou MacDonald,Cyprian Brady.....Cyprian Brady gets apporx 800 votes,MacDonald recieves appox 4000,but in the end Brady gets the seat,explain how thats fair,and how Brady despite having 5 times less votes then MacDonald gets the seat

That's how an STV election works and most people are happy with it. MacDonald obviously received mostly 1st Pref votes, whereas Brady obviously received a lot of lower preference votes.

luckyfrank wrote: »

Dont worry irlbo there is quite alot of people on here masquerading as nationlists but they all in my opinion are pushing a unionist agenda which is fine

Of course, there's no way that somebody could be neither unionist nor nationalist. Nope, that's just crazy talk, isn't it? Politics in Northern Ireland is a binary system, eh?

oscarBravo

Irlbo wrote: »

...how does someone like yourself come to have no pride in their country(and I include that strange foreign land know as 'Northern Ireland') and be a complete unionist...

Irlbo wrote: »

...you most be one of these imperial minded people that think Britain is so great the entire world should be like them...

luckyfrank wrote: »

Dont worry irlbo there is quite alot of people on here masquerading as nationlists but they all in my opinion are pushing a unionist agenda...

...they think they are neutral but there not there closet unionists

Gems such as these represent the sort of deterioration in the standard of discussion that lead these threads to be locked, and quite often lead to bans. Naturally, such quotes as I've highlighted are lauded as "nationalists getting the upper hand in the discussion" and the act of closing the threads and/or banning certain posters condemned as biased moderation, but I don't care: this is a discussion forum, where grown-ups can have sensible conversations without being dragged into playground rows.

Take note: further remarks along the lines of what I've quoted will lead to thread closure and may lead to bans. If you can't put your point across in an intelligent, non-insulting way, you don't have a point worth making.

gurramok

Camelot wrote:

There are approx One Million Brits Up-North,

No there ain't. Have a look at the previous election results to get real trends. More like 900,000 unless you spoke to all the population of 1.7m+ and got their views

djpbarry wrote:

Half the population? I don’t think so. According to this poll, only about one quarter of the North’s population consider themselves nationalist:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2007/Polit.../UNINATID.html

This has been proven to be a misleading poll on the other thread and yet you keep bringing it up?
That is sheer folly.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

This has been proven to be a misleading poll on the other thread and yet you keep bringing it up?

By "proven to be misleading", I presume you mean it was dismissed by yourself and others because it contradicts your argument?

I am open to any other sources of information on the subject that you care to provide.

Keith186

Possible alright, but probably not in our life time.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

By "proven to be misleading", I presume you mean it was dismissed by yourself and others because it contradicts your argument?

I am open to any other sources of information on the subject that you care to provide.

It doesn't matter if your tiny poll showed 69% of the population wanting a united Ireland, it will still be dismissed by serious analysts because its a tiny sample of the population and even that sample does not reach everyone in every class and every religion.
If you watch NI current and political affairs programmes often, you will see what i mean.
Only elections can provide correct analysis up north. Even our friends in the DUP/UUP never quote that survey, they always point to their election results as their mandate for the union.

I've provided ample evidence of where the various support lies through mandates of the electorate, what can you provide other than a tiny irrelevant survey?

luckyfrank

I think a huge issue up north that that isnt really addressed is the issue of flags

This is such a contentious issue ive no problem with the flying of the unionjack over goverment or state buildings but as a dubliner who is up the north a lot travelling into loyalist area's decorated in union flags, the northern banner and even more disturbing many many uvf and uff flags i find it quite intimadating to be honest and i dont feel comfortable when im in these places

What purpose do these flags serve to intimadate people from the south and its in almost every loyalist town you go

Personally i think all flags should be removed from lamp posts tri-colour and union jacks

I think if your trying to start a healing process this is a good place to start

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

It doesn't matter if your tiny poll showed 69% of the population wanting a united Ireland, it will still be dismissed by serious analysts...

Like hell it would. If that poll showed strong support for a united Ireland it would be trumpeted all over these threads by republicans. The reason it is dismissed out of hand is because it shows that support for said proposal is lukewarm at best.

gurramok wrote: »

...because its a tiny sample of the population...

It's of sufficient size to give a 2.9% confidence interval at the 99% confidence level. In other words, based on the laws of statistical science, if 24% of a random sample of 2,000 people out of a population of approx. 1.7 million say they support a UI, then we can say with 99% confidence that if we ask the entire population, support for a UI will fall in the approximate range 22.1 - 26.9%.

gurramok wrote: »

Only elections can provide correct analysis up north.

I produced election results in another thread to counter your claim that there has been a substantial climb in support for Sinn Fein and the SDLP in recent years and you disputed those too.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

Like hell it would. If that poll showed strong support for a united Ireland it would be trumpeted all over these threads by republicans. The reason it is dismissed out of hand is because it shows that support for said proposal is lukewarm at best.

That's only what you think, we do not know that. you can hold me to my word if such a poll ever returned a result like that.

It's of sufficient size to give a 2.9% confidence interval at the 99% confidence level. In other words, based on the laws of statistical science, if 24% of a random sample of 2,000 people out of a population of approx. 1.7 million say they support a UI, then we can say with 99% confidence that if we ask the entire population, support for a UI will fall in the approximate range 22.1 - 26.9%.

Again, you're missing the point.

You're using normal statistical evidence of the figures for a non-conflict zone. NI is still in conflict(peaceful now) and voters nearly always vote along tribal lines hence the analysis which would be valid for ROI or Luxembourg with swings and roundabouts in a normal political arena would be invalid for NI.

I produced election results in another thread to counter your claim that there has been a substantial climb in support for Sinn Fein and the SDLP in recent years and you disputed those too.

Yes you did provide them. I did not dispute the results, i disputed the factors like new register rules along with voter turnout for the small inconsistencies in the election results(usually weight of numbers) of previous years.
Those have now been largely ironed out and i agree that the next election should born more accurate figures.

Skinny08

Irish ppl wanted 2 be free from english values and traditions so i think that we wouldnt just give up our anthem and flag.. ppl have sang the anthem and recognised the flag for decades.. but im all for a united ireland. Maybe the north could loosen their ties with the union and just be their own region and they could have say in our affairs and vice versa... also they cud hold irish or uk passports, vote in irish elections, be free 2 play for whichever country they wish etc.. anyway just an idea ders prob loads of reasons it wouldnt work.

getz

the moment the uk and ireland joined the EU they both gave up the rights to have nationism- the ultimate idea of the EU is to have one -european ruling government --and it is no good ireland saying lets pull out and go it alone because without the uk doing the same ,ireland could not do it . because only eu countrys do not have to pay the extra tariffs---so mate we are stuck with each other --and i dont like french farming products anyway

dasdog

Alex Salmond will hopefully expedite the dissolution of the UK which might bring to an end this whole sorry mess. Flags and anthems have and will always change.

Irlbo

We are our own country with unique culture,language and customs,but there is and I foresee for the considerable future,an influence of English ways and values,but things like our flag,anthem and language are strong and powerful symbols of our sovreignty and define us a race and nation,they will never change dor be compromised

I think the only viable excuse that could be given to justify the North being occupied,is the presence of Unionists or 'Nothern Irish' as they have become known,but I am and always be of the opinion that the entire country,the entire 32 counties voice should be heard,and I accept the unionist presence but they are a sizeable but still small minority and in the end in democracy,majority rules,

Im seeing posts that try and justify partition because of distinct protestant Northern Irish unionist tradion and culture,but I dont buy that,unionists dont have there own culture,they have self proclaimed British ideals and values and class themselves as such,
If that is the case why dont they live in the 'motherland' their ancestral homeland,the only distinct cultural identidy they have formed is fanatical protestism,which is rooted in bigotry and hatred,doesnt nessecarily give them national identidy!

djpbarry

Irlbo wrote: »

...things like our flag,anthem and language are strong and powerful symbols of our sovreignty and define us a race...

No they don't. I'd like to think that most Irish people are far too complex to be defined by a few colours on a bit of cloth.

Irlbo wrote: »

...unionists dont have there own culture...

Says who? You and the heritage police?

K4t

It will never happen. Another pointless topic. :rolleyes: