Is a peaceful 32 united ireland possible

thehighground

Has any of you 'lets forget about NI brigade, its grand, lets worry about whether there is any catholic symbolism in our schools (not to mention being at the 'heart of the EU' or Russia v. Georgia)' a bit concerned about the recent First Minister also being head of a church, not to mention the christian fundamentalist wife of the present First Minister, who is also an elected representative? At least the catholic schools haven't taught their pupils to hate 5 year old protestants children going to school a la Holy Cross.

What do you think of the protestant ban on playing sport on a Sunday in NI and that up to recently the BBC would not give results of Gaelic games that were played on a Sunday!

I'd be interested to hear whether Fratton Fred & djpbarry would be happy to go along with this if they lived in NI. After all, Iris and co are all elected representatives.

thehighground

djpbarry wrote: »

Some of them may have been, yes. Depends on what passport they were holding, doesn't it?

You obviously know nothing about the GAA in Ulster and especially in Tyrone and you certainly didn't watch that match, particularly when Amhrán na bhFiann was being sung!

And I don't think which passport you hold would be an indicator - the only true indicator would be whether people voted nationalist/unionist. At the moment its about 55/45.

JWAD

......so after all these pages, the obvious answer to the original poster's question is quite simply 'No'.

thehighground

JWAD wrote: »

Zzzzzzzzzzzz...............

I'm from Kildare and I don't agree with a word you post. This doesn't make me a unionist, does it? :rolleyes:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but were you not born/brought up/spent a lot of time in Australia?

Fratton Fred

thehighground wrote: »

Has any of you 'lets forget about NI brigade, its grand, lets worry about whether there is any catholic symbolism in our schools (not to mention being at the 'heart of the EU' or Russia v. Georgia)' a bit concerned about the recent First Minister also being head of a church, not to mention the christian fundamentalist wife of the present First Minister, who is also an elected representative? At least the catholic schools haven't taught their pupils to hate 5 year old protestants children going to school a la Holy Cross.

What do you think of the protestant ban on playing sport on a Sunday in NI and that up to recently the BBC would not give results of Gaelic games that were played on a Sunday!

I'd be interested to hear whether Fratton Fred & djpbarry would be happy to go along with this if they lived in NI. After all, Iris and co are all elected representatives.

I wouldn't disagree, however, the asumption i have made is that we are talking about the North being integrated into the south, not the other way around. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but the people you talk about do not want a united ireland so they are happy to keep things the way they are.

thehighground

JWAD wrote: »

......so after all these pages, the obvious answer to the original poster's question is quite simply 'No'.

I don't think its just black and white. I read the Anthony Foley's memoir (to those who don't know, he is a recently retired rugby player from Limerick who played for Ireland and Munster). He mentions various people who he played alongside, including Davy Tweed. His comment about him was that he was great to play with because he always looked out for his team mates, despite having a UVF tatoo on his ankle!.

I voted to drop Articles 2&3 at the time - that doesn't mean I would not like a United Ireland.

Fratton Fred

thehighground wrote: »

I don't think its just black and white. I read the Anthony Foley's memoir (to those who don't know, he is a recently retired rugby player from Limerick who played for Ireland and Munster). He mentions various people who he played alongside, including Davy Tweed. His comment about him was that he was great to play with because he always looked out for his team mates, despite having a UVF tatoo on his ankle!.

I voted to drop Articles 2&3 at the time - that doesn't mean I would not like a United Ireland.

Norman Whiteside's first words to Paul mcGrath when they met "Jesus, I though it was bad enough being a catholic, but a black one...".:D

They became great mates straight away

dante18

djpbarry wrote: »

Some of them may have been, yes. Depends on what passport they were holding, doesn't it?

So if it was found that most of them were holding Irish passports you would accept that they are not foreigners and that they are Irish?

And if you believe that not holding an Irish passport is enough to make someone a foreigner, would you therefore class anyone in the republic of Ireland without an Irish passport to be a foreigner as well. According to this, there could be as many as 70 thousand people in the republic of Ireland holding British passports. Are all those people foreigners in your opinion?

JWAD

thehighground wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but were you not born/brought up/spent a lot of time in Australia?

How long does my family have to have been here?

JWAD

thehighground wrote: »

I voted to drop Articles 2&3 at the time - that doesn't mean I would not like a United Ireland.

Yes, you voted for compromise as its the best option according to the majority vote in the referendum.
The question asked whether or not the 32 county solution was possible through peaceful means. The referendum would indicate that this was not possible hence the compromise.

McArmalite

Camelot wrote: »

I think a lot of the problem with a view to the very idea of a 'United Ireland' is peoples perceptions of such;- take the Republican vision of a United Ireland (for example) which revolves around a Nation made up of Gaelic speaking, Roman Catholic, Nationalist, Tricolour waving, hunger strike commerating, Black Flag loving, Shinners, singing the Soldiers Song (Amhrán na bhFiann) and winging about the 'mythical' 800 years . . . :rolleyes: or on the other hand, you might take my perception of what a United Ireland (might look like) in an ideal world, where the whole island is back in the Commonwealth, where Irish is not compulsary in School, with a New 'All island-all Ireland Flag', with a new National Anthem which accommodates Unionists, a Multi Cultural- Multi Faith Country, a Country back on normal terms with Britain ......

As a Unionist I could agree to that (at a push), so what say you chaps on the other side of the fence ?

I wouldn't blame you for thinking that if you get a compliement from McArmalite you must surely be doing something wrong !! But whatever about our differences, at least your honest enough to state your a unionist and post your views, despite that Neanderthlal republicans like myself will inevitably disagree with you

djpbarry wrote: »

Yeah, anyone who disagrees with you is a diehard unionist :rolleyes:.

When someone posts obviously putting foward the views of communism - I call them a communist.

When someone posts obviously putting foward the views of apartheid - I call them a rascist.

But when someone posts obviously putting foward the views of unionism - I'm supposed to call them a nationalist ??

thehighground

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wouldn't disagree, however, the asumption i have made is that we are talking about the North being integrated into the south, not the other way around. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but the people you talk about do not want a united ireland so they are happy to keep things the way they are.

So you are happy to go along with a place, a 100 miles up the road, where not just catholics (all non-white protestants) are actually thought of and treated as second class citizen and the people in charge will do anything to maintain the status quo.

thehighground

JWAD wrote: »

How long does my family have to have been here?

To be here for what?

McArmalite

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Lads - ye missed the double-negative in that sentence!!!! If someone wouldn't think the views are not very common then it means that they think the views are very common indeed.

And - given that I'm a third person that's insulted by the "if you don't agree with me then you're a unionist", the poster in question [if you acknowledge the double-negative] is spot on......the views ARE very common - i.e. most reasonable people who don't have chips on their shoulder and an OTT "republican" mindset.

The North is not a part of "our country". FACT. In one way, it never really was, since the Republic was formed without it, but even since then the people of Ireland voted to relinquish the claim over it.

Loads of people - somewhat understandably - have varying levels of "OK-ness" with that, but it is a fact.

And relating to the original topic, until people first have an acceptance of facts and general public opinions, and agree to respect the democratic public will, then we'll always run into problems.

But if the neanderthals - on both sides - ever do manage to stop their siege mentality and get with the real world, then who knows ?

It's a long time away, though.

" The North is not a part of "our country". FACT. ". Do you think we should give Donegal back then so if that's the case ?? :rolleyes:

Maybe you should get Willie Frazers Love2/3Ulster to march thru Athy, Newbridge or wherever and then we'll see whose views are " very common So my grandparents ( one of whom was in the IRA and interned by the british back in 1920 ), Uncles, cousins, in laws, life long friends, workmates, and so on aren't from IRELAND but britain. So as a so called nationalist, you'd agree with Geoffrey Donaldson of Paisley's DUP that a 'foreign' team won the ALL IRELAND ?

I'll let the readers decide just who has the idenity crisis around here

djpbarry

dante18 wrote: »

So if it was found that most of them were holding Irish passports you would accept that they are not foreigners and that they are Irish?

Eh, yeah, sure.

dante18 wrote: »

And if you believe that not holding an Irish passport is enough to make someone a foreigner, would you therefore class anyone in the republic of Ireland without an Irish passport to be a foreigner as well.

I suppose.

dante18 wrote: »

According to this, there could be as many as 70 thousand people in the republic of Ireland holding British passports. Are all those people foreigners in your opinion?

According to the 2006 census, there were about 112,000 British nationals living in Ireland. I would regard British nationals as foreigners, yes. In the same way, when I am in London, I am a foreigner.

You seem to think that “foreign” is a dirty word?

McArmalite wrote: »

But when someone posts obviously putting foward the views of unionism - I'm supposed to call them a nationalist ??

There’s your problem right there; everyone’s either one or the other. You’re either with us or against us, eh? I see no need to label myself, nor anyone else for that matter, as either unionist or nationalist.

Fratton Fred

thehighground wrote: »

So you are happy to go along with a place, a 100 miles up the road, where not just catholics (all non-white protestants) are actually thought of and treated as second class citizen and the people in charge will do anything to maintain the status quo.

I don't care about the north to be honest. What I would like to see is an all inclusive secular country where people from a diversity of backgrounds can live together. I actually find it quite stiffling living in such a white christian area, it is very different to what i am used to.

This thread is to discuss how a peaceful united Ireland can come about, not how we force intransigent people in the north to accept life under a united Ireland.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Norman Whiteside's first words to Paul mcGrath when they met "Jesus, I though it was bad enough being a catholic, but a black one...".:D

They became great mates straight away

Or Phil Lynott on been asked what it felt like to be Irish and black ?

" Like a pint of Guinness "

thehighground

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't care about the north to be honest.

Well, why are you posting on this thread then?

What I would like to see is an all inclusive secular country where people from a diversity of backgrounds can live together. I actually find it quite stiffling living in such a white christian area, it is very different to what i am used to.

Count your blessings, you could be living in Germany where there are automatic deductions to support whichever church you belong to or you could be living in Portsmouth, UK where the head of state is also head of the Established Church and cannot marry a catholic if they want to remain Head of State. Bearing that in mind, we're probably not as backward as you would like to think.

This thread is to discuss how a peaceful united Ireland can come about, not how we force intransigent people in the north to accept life under a united Ireland.

We're not going to force anyone into a united Ireland - but personally I think its inevitable.

Fratton Fred

thehighground wrote: »

Well, why are you posting on this thread then?

because i would like to see a united Ireland one day, when all the pieces are in the right place, which isn't yet.

thehighground wrote: »

Count your blessings, you could be living in Germany where there are automatic deductions to support whichever church you belong to or you could be living in Portsmouth, UK where the head of state is also head of the Established Church and cannot marry a catholic if they want to remain Head of State. Bearing that in mind, we're probably not as backward as you would like to think.

but this isn't about Germany, or Portsmouth and as not that many people get to marry the headof state, its really that big a deal at the moment. I'll be sure to pass on your concerns to Liz next time i see her though.:P

thehighground wrote: »

We're not going to force anyone into a united Ireland - but personally I think its inevitable.

eh?we're not going to, but we are? Bertie, is that you:D

Erin Go Brath

JWAD wrote: »

......so after all these pages, the obvious answer to the original poster's question is quite simply 'No'.

Not quite. To put in another way, a united ireland could hardly be any more of a troublesome place than the partitioned statelet in the north. The reason i say this is laid in the proclamation of 1916 where it states: The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.

There would be no 2nd class citizens in a united ireland scenario, and unionists heritage would be safeguarded as part of the new Ireland. The very fact that we have orange in our national flag shows we don't want to exclude our unionist brethren in the north from their rightful place in irelands society.

Fratton Fred

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Not quite. To put in another way, a united ireland could hardly be any more of a troublesome place than the partitioned statelet in the north. The reason i say this is laid in the proclamation of 1916 where it states: The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.

There would be no 2nd class citizens in a united ireland scenario, and unionists heritage would be safeguarded as part of the new Ireland. The very fact that we have orange in our national flag shows we don't want to exclude our unionist brethren in the north from their rightful place in irelands society.

How well do you feel the republic lives up to that declaration?

Erin Go Brath

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How well do you feel the republic lives up to that declaration?

On the whole pretty well i think. Ireland has opened its doors and been welcoming to people from many nations who want to build a life here, and has treated them well and fairly. We even allow some English in.

We have had a few corrupt leaders who have brought shame upon the country, especially the nefarious Bertie Ahern, but thankfully he is yesterdays news.

luckyfrank

Camelot wrote: »

I think a lot of the problem with a view to the very idea of a 'United Ireland' is peoples perceptions of such;- take the Republican vision of a United Ireland (for example) which revolves around a Nation made up of Gaelic speaking, Roman Catholic, Nationalist, Tricolour waving, hunger strike commerating, Black Flag loving, Shinners, singing the Soldiers Song (Amhrán na bhFiann) and winging about the 'mythical' 800 years . . . :rolleyes: or on the other hand, you might take my perception of what a United Ireland (might look like) in an ideal world, where the whole island is back in the Commonwealth, where Irish is not compulsary in School, with a New 'All island-all Ireland Flag', with a new National Anthem which accommodates Unionists, a Multi Cultural- Multi Faith Country, a Country back on normal terms with Britain ......

As a Unionist I could agree to that (at a push), so what say you chaps on the other side of the fence ?

Id agree to that no problem even joining the commonwealth for the unionists
as for a multi cultural, multi faith country come down to dublin and have a look mate its one of the most cosmopolitan citys in the world

Religious and cultural freedoms are enshrined in the constitution erskine childers our former president was a protestant. Alot of the scaremongering that goes on up the north about the irish republic is unfounded

McArmalite

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

There would be no 2nd class citizens in a united ireland scenario, and unionists heritage would be safeguarded as part of the new Ireland. The very fact that we have orange in our national flag shows we don't want to exclude our unionist brethren in the north from their rightful place in irelands society.

Sorry about this Erin, your a sound poster, but I completetly disagreee with the " unionists heritage would be safeguarded bit.

Kick the Pope bands down O'Connell St........Croppies lie down in Derry as the unionists walk by and throw pennies frm their pockets at the nationalist houses on the Bogside, Creggan, Bardywell etc ( which brings to mind, even the Ameriacan version of the british orange order in Alabahama didn't do that to the black people ), No Catholics need apply( or RC's - Roman Catholics ) as their daddies used to say in the good old days.

...... that we have orange in our national flag shows we don't want to exclude our unionist brethren

Undoubtably the best thing for Ireland is those british citizens who are so against Ireland, would be to see them go 'home"'.

Acacia

Fratton Fred wrote: »

sarcasm doesn't work on the internet, doee sit. Anyway, Yes i live in ireland. All I can say is do you? have you ever tried getting kids into a school in this country?

When you ring all your local schools and the first thing Sister so and so asks you is "What religion are you" because of your accent, you do kind of build up a picture, maybe an unfair one, of the country. My Niece's school is supposedly non denominational, but it does have a 15 ft mural of the virgin mary on the front of the school:rolleyes:

There are "Non denominational schools, all inclusive schools (Run by the Catholic Church I believe) but most of these have been set up because the existing schools are refusing to let non Catholics in.

The maybe try visiting one of the Hospitals, St whatever, or maybe Our lady this.

I like Dara O'Briain's quote "i'm not religious, I have no need for religion in my life, but i think like a Catholic".

I try not to use sarcasm on the internet, because people tend to take it up wrong. My question was genuine because you mentioned not having St. George's Day in England as a national holiday, I thought maybe you were living there still, or had not lived in Ireland for some time.

I do live in Ireland, and I can speak from my own experience of school and people I know trying to get their kids into schools.

Tbh, there are a minimal number of nuns teaching in schools in this day and age, so I don't think every school you ring up will have ''Sister so-and-so'' on the line. I can't say for sure, but I imagine that they ask what religion you or your child are is so they could make arrangements, if you so wish it, concerning the child's religious education (i.e. whether they want to take religious classes or not). I can't think of any other reason why it would be necessary to ask.
RE the fifteen foot Virgin Mary mural, I'd imagine the school used to be a Catholic school. Most schools used to be exclusively Catholic, even though they're multi-denominational now. The mural is probably just a remnant of the school's past, I'd venture.Or the school could be 'Catholic' but still allow people of other faiths to attend ( which is good, of course.)

The Educate Together schools were set up I believe to give another option for people who didn't want to give their children a mono-religious education, not because the catholic schools weren't allowing non-Catholics in. That would be discrimination. I went to catholic schools myself, and there were many people of different faiths attending.

I don't see why hospital names are a problem. Would you refuse treatment in a hospital just because it was called Our Lady's or Saint Whatever's? :pac:

I like Dara o' Briain too, but this doesn't really answer the question about a catholic mentality.:) Of course, the culture you grow up will affect the way you think if you grow up Jewish or Muslim you would think like a Muslim or Jew as well, even if you weren't practising the religion.

Chucky4celtic

i have lived in london belfast glasgow edinburgh and back home in ireland again.... i dont think there will ever be peace in this country or any country bein lived all over i can tell u honestly that people in england include the north as theres and alot do hate the irish.... certain pubs in scotland wont let irish in and just recently i have noticed the same here in ireland... some places let the english in but refuse to join in conversation with them or worse still i saw a man approach an english friend of mine and abuse him cause of his accent... there will never be a peaceful 32 in ireland cause in a way we either hate the english or love em the majority of people out there hate the english and they still go on like that to this day

luckyfrank

McArmalite wrote: »

Sorry about this Erin, your a sound poster, but I completetly disagreee with the " unionists heritage would be safeguarded bit.

Kick the Pope bands down O'Connell St........Croppies lie down in Derry as the unionists walk by and throw pennies frm their pockets at the nationalist houses on the Bogside, Creggan, Bardywell etc ( which brings to mind, even the Ameriacan version of the british orange order in Alabahama didn't do that to the black people ), No Catholics need apply( or RC's - Roman Catholics ) as their daddies used to say in the good old days.

...... that we have orange in our national flag shows we don't want to exclude our unionist brethren

Undoubtably the best thing for Ireland is those british citizens who are so against Ireland, would be to see them go 'home"'.

Unacceptabe the 6 counties is where they live it is there home

I mean after more that 300 years they'd surly have squatters rights by now

Seriously that kinda attitude will never see a united ireland the only united ireland worth having is an inclusive one of both prodestants and catholics

luckyfrank

Chucky4celtic wrote: »

i have lived in london belfast glasgow edinburgh and back home in ireland again.... i dont think there will ever be peace in this country or any country bein lived all over i can tell u honestly that people in england include the north as theres and alot do hate the irish.... certain pubs in scotland wont let irish in and just recently i have noticed the same here in ireland... some places let the english in but refuse to join in conversation with them or worse still i saw a man approach an english friend of mine and abuse him cause of his accent... there will never be a peaceful 32 in ireland cause in a way we either hate the english or love em the majority of people out there hate the english and they still go on like that to this day

Thats an opinion i dont share i agree some places are anti-irish but the vast vast majority of places in britian are friendly to irish people

As for your english friend being abused unfortunaly you will always get idiots and the drunk guy that abused him deserved a slap round the ear aswell

Chucky4celtic

luckyfrank wrote: »

Thats an opinion i dont share i agree some places are anti-irish but the vast vast majority of places in britian are friendly to irish people

As for your english friend being abused unfortunaly you will always get idiots and the drunk guy that abused him deserved a slap round the ear aswell

vast majority maybe have u ever been to a football match in london or say glasgow?

dlofnep

I do believe it's possible to have a peaceful 32 county Irish Republic. But it will take compromise and understanding to achieve that. It won't be a sudden transition, but rather it would take a period of adjustment.

In saying - The majority of struggles for liberation have been hard to achieve through peace - But I have high hopes for this struggle being achieved through diplomatic means.