Porsche to Nissan : you're a bloody liar

E92

What's interesting is that Porsche said this a few days ago and I have yet to hear any response from Nissan.

I would have thought that Nissan would have gotten back straight away and told Porsche where to go. At least if they were 100% certain that the GT-R is capable of lapping the 'Ring as quickly as they say it is you would expect that. It's hardly good for Nissan or the GT-R to leave false truths hanging around if that's what they are.

Or perhaps Porsche know something we don't?

Of course if Porsche are proven to be wrong then it would be extraordinarily embarrassing for them. It would be even worse than that tbh.

I'm sure Porsche knows this and they wouldn't have said what they said on a whim.

copacetic

Zube wrote: »

Where "standard" is defined as "non-standard"?

In CARs Performance Car of the Year test, the GT-R gave the Lambo 560 a good scare, despite costing 1/3 as much, and beat 2 different 911 models.

Why lie about how good it is when it's so very good already?

People don't seem to have paid much attention to Zubes post but he makes a great point. I wouldn't put much trust in what Nissan or Porsche say, they both have a bias.

However Car magazine independently tested the GT-R and it outlapped a 911 GT2 by 0.6s and a 911S PDK by 2.6s. At the Anglesey cct in wales, on a 1min laptime.

Obviously also came in miles ahead of a DBS, CLK black, M3, various AMGs etc.

rabbitinlights

copacetic wrote: »

However Car magazine independently tested the GT-R and it outlapped a 911 GT2 by 0.6s and a 911S PDK by 2.6s. At the Anglesey cct in wales, on a 1min laptime.

Not dissing Car Magazine, but their drivers might not have been good enough to get the most out of the porker, where as the GT-R is far easier to drive at the limit.

Either way, Nissan are going to have to retort to save face......

copacetic

rabbitinlights wrote: »

Not dissing Car Magazine, but their drivers might not have been good enough to get the most out of the porker, where as the GT-R is far easier to drive at the limit.

Either way, Nissan are going to have to retort to save face......

they had Darren Turner do all the timed laps, 8 years test driver for Mclaren F1, various DTM wins and at le Mans 24 hour last year also. Don't doubt he could handle any of the cars. Rumoured to be one of the Stigs.

From his wikipedia entry:

Darren Turner (born April 13, 1974 in Reading, Berkshire) is an English racing driver. He was McLaren Autosport BRDC Young Driver of the Year in 1996. He is a former test driver for the McLaren Formula One team, but has raced primarily in touring cars and sportscars since 2000. He spent 2 years in the DTM for Keke Rosberg's Mercedes-Benz-powered team, also winning several ASCAR races. For 2006 he races sportscars for Aston Martin, but also drives five rounds of the BTCC for SEAT, sharing their 2nd car with James Thompson. In his first drive for the team he finished 3rd.

Top Dog

copacetic wrote: »

However Car magazine independently tested the GT-R and it outlapped a 911 GT2 by 0.6s and a 911S PDK by 2.6s. At the Anglesey cct in wales, on a 1min laptime.

Obviously also came in miles ahead of a DBS, CLK black, M3, various AMGs etc.

Bit of a pointless comparison IMO. A circut with a lap time of only 1 min is never going to favour the higher power & heavier cars. Its going to be short and twisty, thus benefitting the nimbler car. Show it a decent track like the Ring, where the cars can really stretch their legs, and the tables get turned on their heads. I mean, I'd expect my old 205 GTI to be quicker around Anglesey than my Pulsar, but on the Ring the 205 wouldn't see the Pulsar for dust.

I can't see any reason for Porsche to make such a claim if there is no foundation for it. They'd be fully aware that if they were proven wrong it would only be damaging to them, so I suspect that Nissan's silence (so far) is a bit of an admission of guilt. I know the GT-R is a staggering car, but to get within 5 seconds of a car with less weight and more power (Carrera GT)? Sounds a little too optimistic to me anyway.

copacetic

Top Dog wrote: »

Bit of a pointless comparison IMO. A circut with a lap time of only 1 min is never going to favour the higher power & heavier cars. Its going to be short and twisty, thus benefitting the nimbler car. Show it a decent track like the Ring, where the cars can really stretch their legs, and the tables get turned on their heads. I mean, I'd expect my old 205 GTI to be quicker around Anglesey than my Pulsar, but on the Ring the 205 wouldn't see the Pulsar for dust.

You have that backwards then, by your logic the lighter porsches should be quicker that than GT-R on a shorter circuit. The GT2 is 300kg lighter than it.

So basically you are saying that since the GT-R beat it on the shorter circuit it would murder it on the Ring.

Top Dog

You're right - I have myself all backwards and upside down. Must be the late hour - disregard the post above

copacetic

Top Dog wrote: »

You're right - I have myself all backwards and upside down. Must be the late hour - disregard the post above

:eek: a reasonable boardsie ready to debate the merits rather than just insisting everything they say is right. how did you get on here with all your making sense and stuff!

dave2pvd

Something else to keep in mind is the popular hypothesis that the 'Skyline' has more HP than stated. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/what_is_the_gt_r_s_real_horsepower_column

Top Dog

copacetic wrote: »

:eek: a reasonable boardsie ready to debate the merits rather than just insisting everything they say is right. how did you get on here with all your making sense and stuff!

Don't you know there's always the odd one that manages to sneak through the net?

Mr.David

NISSAN HITS BACK AT GT-R CHEAT CLAIMS

Nissan offers to teach Porsche how to drive


The ever-controversial GT-R
Nissan has this morning issued a lengthy statement rebuking claims by rival carmaker Porsche that its GT-R lap times of the Nurburgring were false. The Japanese manufacturer is clearly angry at accusations that it cheated and has made a thinly veiled suggestion that the people over in Stuttgart don’t know how to drive. Porsche claimed that it had acquired a US-spec GT-R but was unable to get anywhere near Nissan’s reported lap time of the ‘Ring.
Today’s press release by Nissan made its thoughts on the matter clear: ‘…we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R.’ Nissan also goes into great detail about how ‘production specification vehicles with production specification tyres’ have been used for all testing, including the ‘Ring attempt.
‘For the April 2008 test [the 7.29 lap time], the GT-R carried an additional 50kg of weight due to the Marelli data recorder and video camera equipment. In addition, the test was witnessed by ‘Best Motoring’ magazine from Japan who reported the test in their July 2008 issue, which included a DVD program of the session,’ read the statement.
Nissan says it offers two tyre choices for the GT-R - Bridgestone POTENZA RE070R and Dunlop SP SPORT 600 DSST CTT - and for the tests conducted at the Nurburgring where the lap times of 7:38 and 7:29 were recorded, the Dunlop tyres were used.
Kazutoshi Mizuno, Chief Vehicle Engineer and Chief Product Specialist for GT-R, said: ‘We have used circuits like the Nurburgring and Sendai extensively during the development of the GT-R. The fastest lap-time was never the objective but a simple parameter for us to measure the GT-R in a consistent way against other world class supercars.
'Testing a car with specialized parts such as unique tyres or suspension has no meaning for us. The GT-R was designed from the start to be a supercar that could be driven anywhere, anytime and by anyone. For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant than creating a one-off vehicle that our customers cannot buy.'

T-Maxx

Surprise surprise...:rolleyes:

Biro

I'm almost convinced. However, I'd need Porsche to give me a GT3 and Nissan to give me a GTR for me to decide properly, then I'll make a formal press statement.

kayos

TBH let them both do an offical time around the ring on the same day and let each other inspect the cars... if they have nothing to hide whats to lose.

Hand both cars to Sabine and let her do the testing......

Zube

T-Maxx wrote: »

Surprise surprise...:rolleyes:

This is a surprise, since it means Nissan are saying they can repeat those times. This isn't over.

Mr.David

Biro wrote: »

I'm almost convinced. However, I'd need Porsche to give me a GT3 and Nissan to give me a GTR for me to decide properly, then I'll make a formal press statement.

:D:D

Vegeta

"its a walk off"

Making this into a top gear episode would be cool

WHITE_P

I remember reading a report in CAR or Performance Car (can't remeber which) around that time, where Nissan let a load of motoring hacks out in a Skyline R32 GT-R on the Nurburgring while Porsche were testing a 928 GT (http://www.flat-6.net/forum/showcar.php?do=overview&car_model_id=126).

The Porsche test drivers and engineers working on the car couldn't believe that the Nissan was beating their lap times, especially as the car was being driven by a bunch of journalists.

bazz26

I can see a future episode of Top Gear here where the Stig will lap the Ring in both cars. It would be interesting to see if both Porsche and Nissan would permit this though.

cashmni1

WHITE_P wrote: »

I remember reading a report in CAR or Performance Car (can't remeber which) around that time, where Nissan let a load of motoring hacks out in a Skyline R32 GT-R on the Nurburgring while Porsche were testing a 928 GT (http://www.flat-6.net/forum/showcar.php?do=overview&car_model_id=126).

The Porsche test drivers and engineers working on the car couldn't believe that the Nissan was beating their lap times, especially as the car was being driven by a bunch of journalists.

Brilliant, journalists beating the propeller heads form Germany. I'd love to have seen their faces.
"how can ziz be??"

unkel

Thanks for the update, Mr. David. Threads merged!

copacetic

kayos wrote: »

TBH let them both do an offical time around the ring on the same day and let each other inspect the cars... if they have nothing to hide whats to lose.

Hand both cars to Sabine and let her do the testing......

I dunno, Nissan had a car magazine with them and videoed the entore session. Porsche did it themselves with no-one else there? Thats how I understand it, based on that Nissans side of it is much more believable.

Maybe Porsche knew the bridgestones would be slower so picked that car and then took it relatively easy on the track. Imo Porsche have set themselves up for a big fall here, no doubt loads of car magazines and shows will be comparing the two from now on.

Porsche have bascilly likened the GTR to their cars even by saying theres is faster, they are saying it is comparable. Bad PR move.

Biro

copacetic wrote: »

I dunno, Nissan had a car magazine with them and videoed the entore session. Porsche did it themselves with no-one else there? Thats how I understand it, based on that Nissans side of it is much more believable.

Maybe Porsche knew the bridgestones would be slower so picked that car and then took it relatively easy on the track. Imo Porsche have set themselves up for a big fall here, no doubt loads of car magazines and shows will be comparing the two from now on.

Porsche have bascilly likened the GTR to their cars even by saying theres is faster, they are saying it is comparable. Bad PR move.

Ya, Porsche should have said nothing, and no one would be any the wiser.
Noble M15 is the way to go!

unkel

copacetic wrote: »

Porsche have bascilly likened the GTR to their cars even by saying theres is faster, they are saying it is comparable. Bad PR move.

+1

Even if Porsche is 100% right that Nissan are cheating, they were never gonna win anything by saying it, were they? Bad move indeed.

unkel

Here we are 4 months later. It's been quiet on this issue. Still no official time from Nissan yet. But here is an interesting article

Conclusion:

For me, the result was a forgone conclusion. The moment you feel how physically fast the GT2 is, you can't believe that the GT-R could possibly beat it. Of course, the GT-R doesn't acknowledge the usual formalities of science and somehow got itself to within seven seconds of the Porsche's time. The final scores are: Porsche, 7 minutes, 49 seconds; Nissan, 7 minutes, 56 seconds. There is no doubt in my mind that the Porsche will go substantially faster, given a drier track and some time to build confidence on the really hairy parts of the circuit.

The GT-R is an immense achievement - it costs more than $100,000 less than the Porsche, and it has four seats and an automatic gearbox. But even with those sticky Dunlops, it's hard to see where Nissan could have shaved an extra 25 seconds. We wouldn't want to detract from Nissan's achievement with this car, but it should be acknowledged that on the same day, with the same driver, the GT2 was the faster car. Now, would it be possible for Ferrari and Lamborghini to become embroiled in a spat over the relative speeds of the 599GTB Fiorano and the Murciélago LP640 around, oh, I don't know, maybe Watkins Glen?

The Big Picture

The complete lap shows that the GT-R and the GT2 are very close in terms of apex speeds. Through quicker turns, the GT2 generally holds an advantage thanks to its lower weight and better resistance to understeer. However, whenever bumps, surface changes, and turn-in points meet, the GT-R gives the driver confidence to carry more speed. In the end, the Porsche is 6.9 seconds quicker.

whiterebel

kayos wrote: »

TBH let them both do an offical time around the ring on the same day and let each other inspect the cars... if they have nothing to hide whats to lose.

Hand both cars to Sabine and let her do the testing......

OR...hand you both cars, and I"LL test Sabine.....:D

Dolph Starbeam

Well that clears that up, good find. As they say it takes nothing awa from a GTR, to get within 7 seconds on a track that long is amazing.

pburns

Meh...GT-R vs GT2...blah...blah...blah...:rolleyes:

Who gives a flying ****?

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

Here we are 4 months later. It's been quiet on this issue. Still no official time from Nissan yet.

Official Nissan GT-R 7:29 Nurburgring

unkel

MOG7 wrote: »

Well that clears that up

It far from clears that up. It's just a bloke driving the two cars around the ring on one day and reporting on his findings

JHMEG wrote: »

Official Nissan GT-R 7:29 Nurburgring

Will you read the thread

That's the "claimed" video from Nissan from nearly a year ago. It is not an official ring timing...