Porsche to Nissan : you're a bloody liar

magick

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/30/porsche-accuses-nissan-gt-r-of-cheating-the-ring/

ohh this could really get ugly fast!!!

Sour grapes or legitimate complaint? That's the question we're left pondering after reading that Porsche believes Nissan must have cheated to record its 7:29:03 lap time of the famed Nürburgring race circuit. Porsche claims that it had been suspicious of the Nissan's lap times, so it acquired a U.S.-spec GT-R for testing back-to-back with its own 911 Turbo and GT2. The result? The mighty Godzilla was toppled by the Teutonic German duo, with the GT-R posting times a good 25-seconds slower than Nissan's claim.

How can Porsche explain the discrepancy? "This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car. For us, it's not clear how this time is possible. What we can imagine with this Nissan is they used other tires," says August Achleitner, the man in charge of the 911 program. There is footage of the GT-R lapping the 'Ring at high speed, but it's taken from inside the car where the tires cannot be seen.

Considering the fact that Nissan saw fit to issue a press release commemorating the car's fast-lap, we doubt this is something that will be taken lightly. There's a big can 'o worms here, and Porsche's in the corner holding the opener.

Eoin

Is it really that much of an offence to not use stock tires?

BostonB

I'd say tyres make a huge difference.

Guy:Incognito

Why didn't Porsche just build something faster instead of whinging? (maybe they are admitting they cant?:))

Plug

I knew myself from the start that time didn't sound right. Its got less than 500hp and is a heavy car yet it did that 7.29 time.

Mr.David

Yea there have been suspicions for along time that Nissan were running track tyres which would of course give a huge advantage. And no it certainly isnt fair, it has claimed the production car lap record on tyres which are probably illegal for road use - and certainly arent the 'production' spec ones.

Soarer

Would a US spec GT-R not be "dumbed down" when compared to a Japanese or Euro spec machine?

unkel

Not sure what the fuss is all about? The Nissan time was never official, was it? That said, I think Nissan was involved in publishing the details, so that is a bit dodgy when it's not an official time

Official times are for standard production cars with standard tyres

Biro

Nissan are pushing it as their official time. I think Porsche has grounds to complain to be honest, even though I think they should still keep their traps shut. The figures certainly don't add up. 473bhp, and over 1700kg's. The Zonda only got 5 seconds quicker with significantly more power and 200kgs or so less.
If you're going to base the whole car on how quick it can get from A to B then you might as well do it right. It's an awesome car for sure, but no one would think any less of it if they did it right and it got a slower time. In any case it's going to be well under 8 minutes, and for a car that's not stripped out in any way, not a track car, and for around 65k sterling or what ever it'll be is really impressive. Lying about it takes from it a bit.
Porsche could build a faster car if they admitted they were wrong with the 911 set up and just moved the engine a metre or so forward! Actually in Autocar tests the GT2 is quicker, but significantly more expensive.

Mr.David

Biro wrote: »

Porsche could build a faster car if they admitted they were wrong with the 911 set up and just moved the engine a metre or so forward!

They did.....the Carrera GT. It recently lapped around 7:27 I think?

T-Maxx

Ah sure Lewis, we'll just slap on some of these here Goodride 165/65 R13 remoulds on yer Ferrari and you'll be grand.:D

daveharnett

unkel wrote: »

Official times are for standard production cars with standard tyres

Fair enough, but I imagine that any manufacturer would bend that statement to the maximum possible extent. A "standard" car's time could be improved without switching any parts - engine port & polish, running a race car in front for slipstream etc...

I think it's possible that Nissan just split hairs on the definition of "standard" a little better than anyone else.

Mr.David

daveharnett wrote: »

Fair enough, but I imagine that any manufacturer would bend that statement to the maximum possible extent. A "standard" car's time could be improved without switching any parts - engine port & polish, running a race car in front for slipstream etc...

I think it's possible that Nissan just split hairs on the definition of "standard" a little better than anyone else.

If its had a port polish its not standard is it?! Standard allows for no mods, you must be able to walk into a dealership and buy the exact same spec yourself.

I think its more possible that Nissan just took a cheap shot at Porsche by cheating!

daveharnett

Mr.David wrote: »

If its had a port polish its not standard is it?!

I'm not sure I agree - it's against the spirit of the term 'standard car', but on the other hand no parts are added, switched or removed. You could characterise it as making the most of a standard car.

I'm pretty sure it's academic in this case. I believe that the GTR would have such treatment in the factory as standard. I only mentioned it as an example.

Zube

daveharnett wrote: »

I think it's possible that Nissan just split hairs on the definition of "standard" a little better than anyone else.

Where "standard" is defined as "non-standard"?

In CARs Performance Car of the Year test, the GT-R gave the Lambo 560 a good scare, despite costing 1/3 as much, and beat 2 different 911 models.

Why lie about how good it is when it's so very good already?

Mr.David

Well all cars have a port polish as standard during manufacture, but any post-production polish is not representative of a standard car. Anyway the issue in this case was tyres, which most certainly amounts to much more than "splitting hairs".

Wetbench4

Isnt the GTR's engine handbuilt so each one is slightly different meaning different power output?? Thought i saw that on top gear. Maybe they "handbuilt" this for the ring.

daveharnett

Mr.David wrote: »

Anyway the issue in this case was tyres, which most certainly amounts to much more than "splitting hairs".

I agree completely, non-standard tyres make for a non standard performance. Have they shown any evidence, other than "it was 25 seconds faster than the one we bought so it must be the tyres"?

I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate - I don't disagree that it looks like some dishonesty went on here. I guess my point is that porche or any other manufacturer would put down glue on the corners for their runs if they thought they could get away with it.

Mr.David

Wetblanket - yes it is hand assembled, but so are loads of engines in high performance cars. And yes consequently every engine has slighty different outputs (this is true for all cars due to manufacturing tolerances) but not to that extent or anywhere near it.

I understand that you are playing devil's advocate, and agree that there is no concrete evidence to support porsches claim. on the other hand there is none to support nissans either. its simple really though, if the gt-r can do a 7:29 then nissan will be keen to dispel any doubt and so will do it again and allow porsche to inspect the car afterwards. if however they dont.......:p

unkel

Mr.David wrote: »

its simple really though, if the gt-r can do a 7:29 then nissan will be keen to dispel any doubt and so will do it again and allow porsche to inspect the car afterwards. if however they dont.......:p

+1

We'll keep this thread open until we have an official gt-r time

Bogger77

Splitting hairs?

theres three variables that's I can guarantee where different on the Nissan run and the Porsche run.
Weather/Climate conditions
Fuel load and the imho, the biggie
Driver

a combination of three could easily account for differences of 30+ seconds on any laptime of the ring!

Looking for fast time, pick the fastest time out of 10 runs, with the later runs benefitting from warmer brakes, tires and engine, lower fuel load and a driver getting more in-tune with the car, weather and track conditions.

Looking for slower time?
Send the car out for 2 laps, with nice healthy fuel load, cold tires, brakes and engine and a driver whose only barely sitting comfortably by the time he/she crosses the line for the 2nd time.

Zube

Bogger77 wrote: »

a combination of three could easily account for differences of 30+ seconds on any laptime of the ring!

Of course Porsche could have deliberately set a slow time in the Nissan, that's a given, but it would be a stupid stunt. If the GT-R is really is only a second behind a Carrera GT as claimed, Nissan could drive out any day of the week and humiliate Porsche very publicly. It would blow up in Porsches face.

The only way Porsche would call Nissan liars like this is if they really tried to set a good time in the GT-R, and it really wasn't that quick.

Mr.David

Whats your point? Of course there are variables that affect the lap time, are you suggesting that Porsche:

a) are unaware of the effects of weather or full fuel tank on a lap time or

b) deliberately put in a slow lap

Its simple, Nissan are talking out their ar3e there is no way it was a standard car.

unkel

Zube wrote: »

Of course Porsche could have deliberately set a slow time in the Nissan, that's a given, but it would be a stupid stunt. If the GT-R is really is only a second behind a Carrera GT as claimed, Nissan could drive out any day of the week and humiliate Porsche very publicly. It would blow up in Porsches face.

The only way Porsche would call Nissan liars like this is if they really tried to set a good time in the GT-R, and it really wasn't that quick.

My thoughts exactly. But let's wait to see what Nissan does. If they do nothing, we know what's what.

Bogger77

Mr.David wrote: »

Whats your point? Of course there are variables that affect the lap time, are you suggesting that Porsche:

a) are unaware of the effects of weather or full fuel tank on a lap time or

b) deliberately put in a slow lap

Its simple, Nissan are talking out their ar3e there is no way it was a standard car.

Porsche would do if they had sense, just as Nissan would deliberately put up a fast lap.

I notice you skipped the driver part.

My point remains, 2 separate and competing car manufactures have run 2 very unscientific laps around a public and much used track, using 2 different cars, with 2 differing and unknowsn setups with 2 different and unknown drivers, on two different days without any impendent scrutiny and you think that either company can claim a true laptime?

unkel

Bogger77 wrote: »

you think that either company can claim a true laptime?

No. But Porsche is calling Nissan's bluff. Up to Nissan to prove Porsche wrong by establishing an official time now imho. Failing that they are the cheats Porsche calls them.

Mr.David

Bogger77 wrote: »

Porsche would do if they had sense, just as Nissan would deliberately put up a fast lap.

I notice you skipped the driver part.

My point remains, 2 separate and competing car manufactures have run 2 very unscientific laps around a public and much used track, using 2 different cars, with 2 differing and unknowsn setups with 2 different and unknown drivers, on two different days without any impendent scrutiny and you think that either company can claim a true laptime?

I skipped the driver part because its largely irrelevant, it will not account for 30 secs thats for sure! Of course the Nissan driver is used to the car etc etc but the Porsche driver is still a 'ring professional and will come within a couple of seconds of his time.

"using 2 different cars" - Exactly!! now your getting it. Porsche ran a standard GT-R and Nissan ran a modified one (be that tyres or whatever).

The point is that it is not up to Porsche to disprove Nissans lap time, you cannot in theory disprove a lap time. It is up to Nissan to prove that their car is capable of this (which it isnt).

I predict that the reaction from the Nissan camp will be........total silence. Which could only be considered an admission of guilt.:)

Biro

Funny though, although people are comparing the Carrera GT to the GTR, the 997 GT2 is getting close enough times to the Carrera GT.
I wonder how advanced the 4WD is in the Turbo? A one off special limited edition Cayman with advanced 4WD might showcase Porsche's technical ability a bit better when they don't listen to the marketing department!
It's funny though, not too many people noticed that the GTR was that quick until Porsche called them a liar! Porsche shot themselves in the foot really!
Also, isn't it funny how everyone tries to beat Porsche at their own game, but Ferrari gets away with it? They always remain on their own in their own little niche.

Climate Expert

The driver aspect would only account for +- a few seconds. If its a pro driver and that knows the ring. I'd well believe Porsche in this instance.

Dolph Starbeam

I knew from the start the time seemed mad, i really hope Nissan didn't make this up, the car is awesome regardless of what time it did.

Beta Ray Bill

US Spec Japanese Cars have always been dumbed down

EG: Evo's, STi's, Supra's Etc etc.

I'd say it very likely that the US Spec GTR would ot be as good as a Jap Spec Model although I have yet to investigate this.

If the used Racing Slick Tyres then I would be expecting the time increase of approx 30 secs (25 sounds about right)

Although a lot of this could be down to the driver.

I'm sure Nissans test drivers can drive the car fast round a track than Porsches test drivers could, and vice versa

E92

What's interesting is that Porsche said this a few days ago and I have yet to hear any response from Nissan.

I would have thought that Nissan would have gotten back straight away and told Porsche where to go. At least if they were 100% certain that the GT-R is capable of lapping the 'Ring as quickly as they say it is you would expect that. It's hardly good for Nissan or the GT-R to leave false truths hanging around if that's what they are.

Or perhaps Porsche know something we don't?

Of course if Porsche are proven to be wrong then it would be extraordinarily embarrassing for them. It would be even worse than that tbh.

I'm sure Porsche knows this and they wouldn't have said what they said on a whim.

copacetic

Zube wrote: »

Where "standard" is defined as "non-standard"?

In CARs Performance Car of the Year test, the GT-R gave the Lambo 560 a good scare, despite costing 1/3 as much, and beat 2 different 911 models.

Why lie about how good it is when it's so very good already?

People don't seem to have paid much attention to Zubes post but he makes a great point. I wouldn't put much trust in what Nissan or Porsche say, they both have a bias.

However Car magazine independently tested the GT-R and it outlapped a 911 GT2 by 0.6s and a 911S PDK by 2.6s. At the Anglesey cct in wales, on a 1min laptime.

Obviously also came in miles ahead of a DBS, CLK black, M3, various AMGs etc.

rabbitinlights

copacetic wrote: »

However Car magazine independently tested the GT-R and it outlapped a 911 GT2 by 0.6s and a 911S PDK by 2.6s. At the Anglesey cct in wales, on a 1min laptime.

Not dissing Car Magazine, but their drivers might not have been good enough to get the most out of the porker, where as the GT-R is far easier to drive at the limit.

Either way, Nissan are going to have to retort to save face......

copacetic

rabbitinlights wrote: »

Not dissing Car Magazine, but their drivers might not have been good enough to get the most out of the porker, where as the GT-R is far easier to drive at the limit.

Either way, Nissan are going to have to retort to save face......

they had Darren Turner do all the timed laps, 8 years test driver for Mclaren F1, various DTM wins and at le Mans 24 hour last year also. Don't doubt he could handle any of the cars. Rumoured to be one of the Stigs.

From his wikipedia entry:

Darren Turner (born April 13, 1974 in Reading, Berkshire) is an English racing driver. He was McLaren Autosport BRDC Young Driver of the Year in 1996. He is a former test driver for the McLaren Formula One team, but has raced primarily in touring cars and sportscars since 2000. He spent 2 years in the DTM for Keke Rosberg's Mercedes-Benz-powered team, also winning several ASCAR races. For 2006 he races sportscars for Aston Martin, but also drives five rounds of the BTCC for SEAT, sharing their 2nd car with James Thompson. In his first drive for the team he finished 3rd.

Top Dog

copacetic wrote: »

However Car magazine independently tested the GT-R and it outlapped a 911 GT2 by 0.6s and a 911S PDK by 2.6s. At the Anglesey cct in wales, on a 1min laptime.

Obviously also came in miles ahead of a DBS, CLK black, M3, various AMGs etc.

Bit of a pointless comparison IMO. A circut with a lap time of only 1 min is never going to favour the higher power & heavier cars. Its going to be short and twisty, thus benefitting the nimbler car. Show it a decent track like the Ring, where the cars can really stretch their legs, and the tables get turned on their heads. I mean, I'd expect my old 205 GTI to be quicker around Anglesey than my Pulsar, but on the Ring the 205 wouldn't see the Pulsar for dust.

I can't see any reason for Porsche to make such a claim if there is no foundation for it. They'd be fully aware that if they were proven wrong it would only be damaging to them, so I suspect that Nissan's silence (so far) is a bit of an admission of guilt. I know the GT-R is a staggering car, but to get within 5 seconds of a car with less weight and more power (Carrera GT)? Sounds a little too optimistic to me anyway.

copacetic

Top Dog wrote: »

Bit of a pointless comparison IMO. A circut with a lap time of only 1 min is never going to favour the higher power & heavier cars. Its going to be short and twisty, thus benefitting the nimbler car. Show it a decent track like the Ring, where the cars can really stretch their legs, and the tables get turned on their heads. I mean, I'd expect my old 205 GTI to be quicker around Anglesey than my Pulsar, but on the Ring the 205 wouldn't see the Pulsar for dust.

You have that backwards then, by your logic the lighter porsches should be quicker that than GT-R on a shorter circuit. The GT2 is 300kg lighter than it.

So basically you are saying that since the GT-R beat it on the shorter circuit it would murder it on the Ring.

Top Dog

You're right - I have myself all backwards and upside down. Must be the late hour - disregard the post above

copacetic

Top Dog wrote: »

You're right - I have myself all backwards and upside down. Must be the late hour - disregard the post above

:eek: a reasonable boardsie ready to debate the merits rather than just insisting everything they say is right. how did you get on here with all your making sense and stuff!

dave2pvd

Something else to keep in mind is the popular hypothesis that the 'Skyline' has more HP than stated. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/larry_webster/what_is_the_gt_r_s_real_horsepower_column

Top Dog

copacetic wrote: »

:eek: a reasonable boardsie ready to debate the merits rather than just insisting everything they say is right. how did you get on here with all your making sense and stuff!

Don't you know there's always the odd one that manages to sneak through the net?

Mr.David

NISSAN HITS BACK AT GT-R CHEAT CLAIMS

Nissan offers to teach Porsche how to drive


The ever-controversial GT-R
Nissan has this morning issued a lengthy statement rebuking claims by rival carmaker Porsche that its GT-R lap times of the Nurburgring were false. The Japanese manufacturer is clearly angry at accusations that it cheated and has made a thinly veiled suggestion that the people over in Stuttgart don’t know how to drive. Porsche claimed that it had acquired a US-spec GT-R but was unable to get anywhere near Nissan’s reported lap time of the ‘Ring.
Today’s press release by Nissan made its thoughts on the matter clear: ‘…we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R.’ Nissan also goes into great detail about how ‘production specification vehicles with production specification tyres’ have been used for all testing, including the ‘Ring attempt.
‘For the April 2008 test [the 7.29 lap time], the GT-R carried an additional 50kg of weight due to the Marelli data recorder and video camera equipment. In addition, the test was witnessed by ‘Best Motoring’ magazine from Japan who reported the test in their July 2008 issue, which included a DVD program of the session,’ read the statement.
Nissan says it offers two tyre choices for the GT-R - Bridgestone POTENZA RE070R and Dunlop SP SPORT 600 DSST CTT - and for the tests conducted at the Nurburgring where the lap times of 7:38 and 7:29 were recorded, the Dunlop tyres were used.
Kazutoshi Mizuno, Chief Vehicle Engineer and Chief Product Specialist for GT-R, said: ‘We have used circuits like the Nurburgring and Sendai extensively during the development of the GT-R. The fastest lap-time was never the objective but a simple parameter for us to measure the GT-R in a consistent way against other world class supercars.
'Testing a car with specialized parts such as unique tyres or suspension has no meaning for us. The GT-R was designed from the start to be a supercar that could be driven anywhere, anytime and by anyone. For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant than creating a one-off vehicle that our customers cannot buy.'

T-Maxx

Surprise surprise...:rolleyes:

Biro

I'm almost convinced. However, I'd need Porsche to give me a GT3 and Nissan to give me a GTR for me to decide properly, then I'll make a formal press statement.

kayos

TBH let them both do an offical time around the ring on the same day and let each other inspect the cars... if they have nothing to hide whats to lose.

Hand both cars to Sabine and let her do the testing......

Zube

T-Maxx wrote: »

Surprise surprise...:rolleyes:

This is a surprise, since it means Nissan are saying they can repeat those times. This isn't over.

Mr.David

Biro wrote: »

I'm almost convinced. However, I'd need Porsche to give me a GT3 and Nissan to give me a GTR for me to decide properly, then I'll make a formal press statement.

:D:D

Vegeta

"its a walk off"

Making this into a top gear episode would be cool

WHITE_P

I remember reading a report in CAR or Performance Car (can't remeber which) around that time, where Nissan let a load of motoring hacks out in a Skyline R32 GT-R on the Nurburgring while Porsche were testing a 928 GT (http://www.flat-6.net/forum/showcar.php?do=overview&car_model_id=126).

The Porsche test drivers and engineers working on the car couldn't believe that the Nissan was beating their lap times, especially as the car was being driven by a bunch of journalists.

bazz26

I can see a future episode of Top Gear here where the Stig will lap the Ring in both cars. It would be interesting to see if both Porsche and Nissan would permit this though.

cashmni1

WHITE_P wrote: »

I remember reading a report in CAR or Performance Car (can't remeber which) around that time, where Nissan let a load of motoring hacks out in a Skyline R32 GT-R on the Nurburgring while Porsche were testing a 928 GT (http://www.flat-6.net/forum/showcar.php?do=overview&car_model_id=126).

The Porsche test drivers and engineers working on the car couldn't believe that the Nissan was beating their lap times, especially as the car was being driven by a bunch of journalists.

Brilliant, journalists beating the propeller heads form Germany. I'd love to have seen their faces.
"how can ziz be??"