Porsche to Nissan : you're a bloody liar

magick · 02-10-2008 1:02am #1

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/30/porsche-accuses-nissan-gt-r-of-cheating-the-ring/

ohh this could really get ugly fast!!!

Sour grapes or legitimate complaint? That's the question we're left pondering after reading that Porsche believes Nissan must have cheated to record its 7:29:03 lap time of the famed Nürburgring race circuit. Porsche claims that it had been suspicious of the Nissan's lap times, so it acquired a U.S.-spec GT-R for testing back-to-back with its own 911 Turbo and GT2. The result? The mighty Godzilla was toppled by the Teutonic German duo, with the GT-R posting times a good 25-seconds slower than Nissan's claim.

How can Porsche explain the discrepancy? "This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car. For us, it's not clear how this time is possible. What we can imagine with this Nissan is they used other tires," says August Achleitner, the man in charge of the 911 program. There is footage of the GT-R lapping the 'Ring at high speed, but it's taken from inside the car where the tires cannot be seen.

Considering the fact that Nissan saw fit to issue a press release commemorating the car's fast-lap, we doubt this is something that will be taken lightly. There's a big can 'o worms here, and Porsche's in the corner holding the opener.

Eoin · 02-10-2008 2:01am

Is it really that much of an offence to not use stock tires?

BostonB · 02-10-2008 2:08am

I'd say tyres make a huge difference.

Guy:Incognito · 02-10-2008 2:22am

Why didn't Porsche just build something faster instead of whinging? (maybe they are admitting they cant?:))

Plug · 02-10-2008 7:36am

I knew myself from the start that time didn't sound right. Its got less than 500hp and is a heavy car yet it did that 7.29 time.

Mr.David · 02-10-2008 7:44am

Yea there have been suspicions for along time that Nissan were running track tyres which would of course give a huge advantage. And no it certainly isnt fair, it has claimed the production car lap record on tyres which are probably illegal for road use - and certainly arent the 'production' spec ones.

Soarer · 02-10-2008 9:04am

Would a US spec GT-R not be "dumbed down" when compared to a Japanese or Euro spec machine?

unkel · 02-10-2008 9:11am

Not sure what the fuss is all about? The Nissan time was never official, was it? That said, I think Nissan was involved in publishing the details, so that is a bit dodgy when it's not an official time

Official times are for standard production cars with standard tyres

Biro · 02-10-2008 9:20am

Nissan are pushing it as their official time. I think Porsche has grounds to complain to be honest, even though I think they should still keep their traps shut. The figures certainly don't add up. 473bhp, and over 1700kg's. The Zonda only got 5 seconds quicker with significantly more power and 200kgs or so less.
If you're going to base the whole car on how quick it can get from A to B then you might as well do it right. It's an awesome car for sure, but no one would think any less of it if they did it right and it got a slower time. In any case it's going to be well under 8 minutes, and for a car that's not stripped out in any way, not a track car, and for around 65k sterling or what ever it'll be is really impressive. Lying about it takes from it a bit.
Porsche could build a faster car if they admitted they were wrong with the 911 set up and just moved the engine a metre or so forward! Actually in Autocar tests the GT2 is quicker, but significantly more expensive.

Mr.David · 02-10-2008 9:26am

Biro wrote: »

Porsche could build a faster car if they admitted they were wrong with the 911 set up and just moved the engine a metre or so forward!

They did.....the Carrera GT. It recently lapped around 7:27 I think?

T-Maxx · 02-10-2008 10:58am

Ah sure Lewis, we'll just slap on some of these here Goodride 165/65 R13 remoulds on yer Ferrari and you'll be grand.:D

daveharnett · 02-10-2008 11:01am

unkel wrote: »

Official times are for standard production cars with standard tyres

Fair enough, but I imagine that any manufacturer would bend that statement to the maximum possible extent. A "standard" car's time could be improved without switching any parts - engine port & polish, running a race car in front for slipstream etc...

I think it's possible that Nissan just split hairs on the definition of "standard" a little better than anyone else.

Mr.David · 02-10-2008 11:06am

daveharnett wrote: »

Fair enough, but I imagine that any manufacturer would bend that statement to the maximum possible extent. A "standard" car's time could be improved without switching any parts - engine port & polish, running a race car in front for slipstream etc...

I think it's possible that Nissan just split hairs on the definition of "standard" a little better than anyone else.

If its had a port polish its not standard is it?! Standard allows for no mods, you must be able to walk into a dealership and buy the exact same spec yourself.

I think its more possible that Nissan just took a cheap shot at Porsche by cheating!

daveharnett · 02-10-2008 11:09am

Mr.David wrote: »

If its had a port polish its not standard is it?!

I'm not sure I agree - it's against the spirit of the term 'standard car', but on the other hand no parts are added, switched or removed. You could characterise it as making the most of a standard car.

I'm pretty sure it's academic in this case. I believe that the GTR would have such treatment in the factory as standard. I only mentioned it as an example.

Zube · 02-10-2008 11:12am

daveharnett wrote: »

I think it's possible that Nissan just split hairs on the definition of "standard" a little better than anyone else.

Where "standard" is defined as "non-standard"?

In CARs Performance Car of the Year test, the GT-R gave the Lambo 560 a good scare, despite costing 1/3 as much, and beat 2 different 911 models.

Why lie about how good it is when it's so very good already?

Mr.David · 02-10-2008 11:12am

Well all cars have a port polish as standard during manufacture, but any post-production polish is not representative of a standard car. Anyway the issue in this case was tyres, which most certainly amounts to much more than "splitting hairs".

Wetbench4 · 02-10-2008 11:23am

Isnt the GTR's engine handbuilt so each one is slightly different meaning different power output?? Thought i saw that on top gear. Maybe they "handbuilt" this for the ring.

daveharnett · 02-10-2008 11:26am

Mr.David wrote: »

Anyway the issue in this case was tyres, which most certainly amounts to much more than "splitting hairs".

I agree completely, non-standard tyres make for a non standard performance. Have they shown any evidence, other than "it was 25 seconds faster than the one we bought so it must be the tyres"?

I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate - I don't disagree that it looks like some dishonesty went on here. I guess my point is that porche or any other manufacturer would put down glue on the corners for their runs if they thought they could get away with it.

Mr.David · 02-10-2008 11:31am

Wetblanket - yes it is hand assembled, but so are loads of engines in high performance cars. And yes consequently every engine has slighty different outputs (this is true for all cars due to manufacturing tolerances) but not to that extent or anywhere near it.

I understand that you are playing devil's advocate, and agree that there is no concrete evidence to support porsches claim. on the other hand there is none to support nissans either. its simple really though, if the gt-r can do a 7:29 then nissan will be keen to dispel any doubt and so will do it again and allow porsche to inspect the car afterwards. if however they dont.......:p

unkel · 02-10-2008 5:45pm

Mr.David wrote: »

its simple really though, if the gt-r can do a 7:29 then nissan will be keen to dispel any doubt and so will do it again and allow porsche to inspect the car afterwards. if however they dont.......:p

+1

We'll keep this thread open until we have an official gt-r time

Bogger77 · 03-10-2008 12:02pm

Splitting hairs?

theres three variables that's I can guarantee where different on the Nissan run and the Porsche run.
Weather/Climate conditions
Fuel load and the imho, the biggie
Driver

a combination of three could easily account for differences of 30+ seconds on any laptime of the ring!

Looking for fast time, pick the fastest time out of 10 runs, with the later runs benefitting from warmer brakes, tires and engine, lower fuel load and a driver getting more in-tune with the car, weather and track conditions.

Looking for slower time?
Send the car out for 2 laps, with nice healthy fuel load, cold tires, brakes and engine and a driver whose only barely sitting comfortably by the time he/she crosses the line for the 2nd time.

Zube · 03-10-2008 12:22pm

Bogger77 wrote: »

a combination of three could easily account for differences of 30+ seconds on any laptime of the ring!

Of course Porsche could have deliberately set a slow time in the Nissan, that's a given, but it would be a stupid stunt. If the GT-R is really is only a second behind a Carrera GT as claimed, Nissan could drive out any day of the week and humiliate Porsche very publicly. It would blow up in Porsches face.

The only way Porsche would call Nissan liars like this is if they really tried to set a good time in the GT-R, and it really wasn't that quick.

Mr.David · 03-10-2008 12:25pm

Whats your point? Of course there are variables that affect the lap time, are you suggesting that Porsche:

a) are unaware of the effects of weather or full fuel tank on a lap time or

b) deliberately put in a slow lap

Its simple, Nissan are talking out their ar3e there is no way it was a standard car.

unkel · 03-10-2008 12:28pm

Zube wrote: »

Of course Porsche could have deliberately set a slow time in the Nissan, that's a given, but it would be a stupid stunt. If the GT-R is really is only a second behind a Carrera GT as claimed, Nissan could drive out any day of the week and humiliate Porsche very publicly. It would blow up in Porsches face.

The only way Porsche would call Nissan liars like this is if they really tried to set a good time in the GT-R, and it really wasn't that quick.

My thoughts exactly. But let's wait to see what Nissan does. If they do nothing, we know what's what.

Bogger77 · 03-10-2008 12:36pm

Mr.David wrote: »

Whats your point? Of course there are variables that affect the lap time, are you suggesting that Porsche:

a) are unaware of the effects of weather or full fuel tank on a lap time or

b) deliberately put in a slow lap

Its simple, Nissan are talking out their ar3e there is no way it was a standard car.

Porsche would do

if they had sense, just as Nissan would deliberately put up a fast lap.

I notice you skipped the driver part.

My point remains, 2 separate and competing car manufactures have run 2 very unscientific laps around a public and much used track, using 2 different cars, with 2 differing and unknowsn setups with 2 different and unknown drivers, on two different days without any impendent scrutiny and you think that either company can claim a true laptime?

unkel · 03-10-2008 12:41pm

Bogger77 wrote: »

you think that either company can claim a true laptime?

No. But Porsche is calling Nissan's bluff. Up to Nissan to prove Porsche wrong by establishing an official time now imho. Failing that they are the cheats Porsche calls them.

Mr.David · 03-10-2008 1:03pm

Bogger77 wrote: »

Porsche would do if they had sense, just as Nissan would deliberately put up a fast lap.

I notice you skipped the driver part.

My point remains, 2 separate and competing car manufactures have run 2 very unscientific laps around a public and much used track, using 2 different cars, with 2 differing and unknowsn setups with 2 different and unknown drivers, on two different days without any impendent scrutiny and you think that either company can claim a true laptime?

I skipped the driver part because its largely irrelevant, it will not account for 30 secs thats for sure! Of course the Nissan driver is used to the car etc etc but the Porsche driver is still a 'ring professional and will come within a couple of seconds of his time.

"using 2 different cars" - Exactly!! now your getting it. Porsche ran a standard GT-R and Nissan ran a modified one (be that tyres or whatever).

The point is that it is not up to Porsche to disprove Nissans lap time, you cannot in theory disprove a lap time. It is up to Nissan to prove that their car is capable of this (which it isnt).

I predict that the reaction from the Nissan camp will be........total silence. Which could only be considered an admission of guilt.:)

Biro · 03-10-2008 3:06pm

Funny though, although people are comparing the Carrera GT to the GTR, the 997 GT2 is getting close enough times to the Carrera GT.
I wonder how advanced the 4WD is in the Turbo? A one off special limited edition Cayman with advanced 4WD might showcase Porsche's technical ability a bit better when they don't listen to the marketing department!
It's funny though, not too many people noticed that the GTR was that quick until Porsche called them a liar! Porsche shot themselves in the foot really!
Also, isn't it funny how everyone tries to beat Porsche at their own game, but Ferrari gets away with it? They always remain on their own in their own little niche.

Climate Expert · 03-10-2008 3:14pm

The driver aspect would only account for +- a few seconds. If its a pro driver and that knows the ring. I'd well believe Porsche in this instance.

Dolph Starbeam · 03-10-2008 3:18pm

I knew from the start the time seemed mad, i really hope Nissan didn't make this up, the car is awesome regardless of what time it did.

Beta Ray Bill · 03-10-2008 4:25pm

US Spec Japanese Cars have always been dumbed down

EG: Evo's, STi's, Supra's Etc etc.

I'd say it very likely that the US Spec GTR would ot be as good as a Jap Spec Model although I have yet to investigate this.

If the used Racing Slick Tyres then I would be expecting the time increase of approx 30 secs (25 sounds about right)

Although a lot of this could be down to the driver.

I'm sure Nissans test drivers can drive the car fast round a track than Porsches test drivers could, and vice versa

Porsche to Nissan : you're a bloody liar

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