Waterford University discussion

O Riain

JLenno wrote: »

How depressing is that? All the figures are available at page 57 of www<dot>hea.ie/sites/default/files/hea_ar_12_ei_1.pdf

It gets even worse when you total up the amount per region. South east gets less than 10% of the total pot outside of the Dublin region.

What I don't get is that IT Tallaght get €3m in research funding from HEA with only "3,700 both full and part-time and a staff of 400" yet Waterford IT only gets €750k with over 10,000 students and 1000 staff. What's the story?

Carlow only got 85k for research funding.... less than Mary I teacher training college. I despair...

Why is John Halligan the only TD in the south-east I've heard actually speak about this total injustice to waterford and the region...

Because John does not belong to a party that requires him to keep his mouth shut and toe the party line.

Good to see Eoghan Murphy publicly highlighting the fact that the current Fine Gael is no different that any other political party that's gone before due to the whip system and old style politics still in full swing. It's a shame that a few on this board can't see the same...

Fate Amenable To Change

robtri wrote: »

I am in favour of Waterford getting a University... but on a basic level what Qualifies WIT to become a University? i.e. what is it doing above and beyond an I.T. to become a University...

Research that is ongoing. But then again there has been a number of cases ie.UL where funding was dumped on it to improve standards. Not as much funding is as necessary but the investment would make a massive difference.

JLenno

Today's indo has seen an advance copy of new letter to be sent by WIT. Interesting!!

independent<dot>ie/irish-news/education/waterford-it-bosses-snub-government-proposal-for-uni-merger-30727944.html

"The attempt to force WIT into a merger which is not capable of meeting the criteria for the creation of a technological university is unacceptable to the institute.

"The institute wishes categorically to assert its autonomy and insists on retaining the right to determine its own future direction".

The letter "regrets" Dr Ormonde's resignation and insists that the process of replacing the Chair "will be directed by the institute's and the region's best interests" and "not political expediency".

It restates WIT's commitment to delivering a university, adding "we are extremely concerned about the recent actions taken by the current government will adversely impact of the Institute's ability perform for the region and will delay, indefinitely, the achievement of a university for the South East".

Figerty

JLenno wrote: »

How depressing is that? All the figures are available at page 57 of www<dot>hea.ie/sites/default/files/hea_ar_12_ei_1.pdf

It gets even worse when you total up the amount per region. South east gets less than 10% of the total pot outside of the Dublin region.

What I don't get is that IT Tallaght get €3m in research funding from HEA with only "3,700 both full and part-time and a staff of 400" yet Waterford IT only gets €750k with over 10,000 students and 1000 staff. What's the story?

Carlow only got 85k for research funding.... less than Mary I teacher training college. I despair...

Why is John Halligan the only TD in the south-east I've heard actually speak about this total injustice to waterford and the region...

Research funding is competitive. That is why. In the IOT sector there isn't a culture of research, Lecturing contracts have much higher contact hours than a University. This is going to be a major stumbling block if any IOT gets converted.
How much value research adds to the economy is also questionable in any of the sectors. There are a lot of self sustaining research but is there a real end product?

Hijpo

David Cullinane wrote:

A future delivery of University status to Waterford or the Southeast is at a critical juncture. It is without doubt the single biggest challenge facing Waterford in the short to long term. After operating for decades with one hand tied behind our backs we are now faced with our backs against the wall. Those within WIT say the collective (WIT/ITC) cannot meet the criteria within any reasonable timeframe. IT Carlow disagree..

I have been given the following figures which demonstrate the extent of the problem. I received them from a senior figure within WIT. They relate to the criteria and where both institutes are at:

Criteria 1.

Enrolment in the application institutes in research programmes at level 9-10 will not be less than 4% of FTE enrolments at level 8 to 10 (from honours degrees to PhD); growing to 7% and in a small number of fields

WIT is between 3 and 3.5% at the moment and based on its funding projections 25MEuro this year will soon meet this criteria
ITC is at 1.2% and has only 1.2MEuro of research funding

Translating this in to numbers. WIT has 161 students registered at level 9/10 research masters and PhD in 2011-2012. Today it is close to 200. ITC has 27 registered masters and PhD students in 2011-2012. This would have to grow about 100 students. Supporting these students would require a huge increase in postgraduate funding. The research funding is too low for this level of activity. I do not believe that the merged institute could meet this criteria within a reasonable time frame. The impact is that the combined statistics from the two institutes are much lower than the minimum criteria for TU status

Criteria 2.

• 45% of FT academic staff holding a level 10 qualification (or equivalence in professional experience and appropriate end quals; this cannot account for >10% of FT staff)

• Level 10 to increase to 65% within 10 years of designation

• Fields for doctoral training: >80% staff with level 10 quals; proven and sustained research outputs

Likewise the concern here is the percentage of qualified staff to level 10. For WIT it is 31% and ITC 21%. Taking in to account the number of WIT registered for PhD and nearing completion the institute will bring the number to 38%. Adding the staff with professional qualifications this could be 45% with a short period. The maximum number for ITC incorporating professional qualifications could reach 31% a major gap from the required 45%.

There is an interrelationship between the need to grow PhD students and staff qualifications. In the fields of doctoral training >80% staff with level 10 qualifications. WIT meets this criteria in its two key areas of Bio Pharma research (life sciences) and Telecommunications (TSSG). There is no such area in ITC.

Finally the last issue of International reputation and proven and sustained outputs.

WIT has two areas of research of critical mass in Biopharma and Telecommunications. We have major collaborations internationally. Some examples. WIT is part of 2 national SFI research centres

SSPC - Synthesis & Solid State Pharmaceutical Cluster

CONNECT Centre for Future Networks & Communications

WIT has three Technology Gateways.

The worry is the lack of a critical mass of research activity in ITC which would have a major impact on this key criteria.

So you can see from above the problem. And the real difficulty is that any WIT/ITC application will be judged not by politicians but by an international panel of experts. Sorry for the long post but it is such an important issue. So where do we go from here?

Looking at those figures, how could it ever be accaeptable to merge?

fuzzy dunlop

Hijpo wrote: »

Looking at those figures, how could it ever be accaeptable to merge?

There was only ever going to be one winner in that merger and that was Carlow. WIT were dead right to pull out. They were/are closer to University level as they are...

taytobreath

everyone knows what was going to happen if the merger did happen, Carlow been the weaker of the two campuses and closer to the capital would get prioritised as the main campus, get a bigger funding pot and possibly weakening wit's status due to them having to relinquish a school to the "main" campus

fuzzy dunlop

taytobreath wrote: »

everyone knows what was going to happen if the merger did happen, Carlow been the weaker of the two campuses and closer to the capital would get prioritised as the main campus, get a bigger funding pot and possibly weakening wit's status due to them having to relinquish a school to the "main" campus

I would have said this is over pessimistic. However considereing the chicanaery that occurred with VEC's being moved to Wexford. Council departments being spread all over the county following the "merger" of Waterford City and County Council and the breaking up of the hospital network I would say you were spot on. I would say this was all about finding a back route to shifting resources to satellite campuses in the other counties on the backs of our heavy lifting (In time honoured parish pump tradition).Jan O' Sullivan should in the nicest possible way be told to fu ck off along with Hogan and Howlin. Unlike her cabinet career the University Campaign for Waterford has staying power.

robtri

JLenno wrote: »

The real reason is this... several very strong research groups that put WIT on the map and deserve the funding which university status brings.

www(dot)wit.ie/research/centres_and_groups/research_centres

I assume, a lot of other IT centres are doing very simliar....

fuzzy dunlop

robtri wrote: »

I assume, a lot of other IT centres are doing very simliar....

A couple maybe but definitely not a lot....

JLenno

robtri wrote: »

I assume, a lot of other IT centres are doing very simliar....

Surprisingly not. There was a report published on this but can't put my hands on it at the moment. DIT, CIT & WIT are the only institutes within a country mile of redesignation based on research output.

Don't understand the mindset suggesting that any (near) university level institution should be held back. Surely we want to invest in more in university level education not less? And all Waterford and the south east wants is fair representation and opportunity in this area. It is valued here and wonderful work is already being done with the paultry resources provided.

robtri

JLenno wrote: »

Surprisingly not. There was a report published on this but can't put my hands on it at the moment. DIT, CIT & WIT are the only institutes within a country mile of redesignation based on research output.

Don't understand the mindset suggesting that any (near) university level institution should be held back. Surely we want to invest in more in university level education not less? And all Waterford and the south east wants is fair representation and opportunity in this area. It is valued here and wonderful work is already being done with the paultry resources provided.

I agree we should be investing in more universities...
I was just asking the question, what makes WIT favourable for upgrade....
It is all well and good we all wanting WIT to be upgraded... me included...
but wanting it, is not enough... is being good at research enough to warrant an upgrade...

7upfree

JLenno wrote: »

How depressing is that? All the figures are available at page 57 of www<dot>hea.ie/sites/default/files/hea_ar_12_ei_1.pdf

It gets even worse when you total up the amount per region. South east gets less than 10% of the total pot outside of the Dublin region.

What I don't get is that IT Tallaght get €3m in research funding from HEA with only "3,700 both full and part-time and a staff of 400" yet Waterford IT only gets €750k with over 10,000 students and 1000 staff. What's the story?

Carlow only got 85k for research funding.... less than Mary I teacher training college. I despair...

Why is John Halligan the only TD in the south-east I've heard actually speak about this total injustice to waterford and the region...

Because the other three are mere drones following and defending the party line. Like a certain poster on here.

fricatus

Editorial in the Waterford News & Star today.

taytobreath

Statement from Waterford Institute of Technology regarding Technological University
At their meeting earlier this week (Mon, Nov 10), the governing body at Waterford Institute of Technology (WIT) met with the Institute’s executive board to discuss the delivery of a technological university in the southeast. The governing body shares and supports the position of the Institute’s executive board and staff that WIT should determine its own future in an autonomous way.
WIT has been entirely focused – over the last two years and in a long campaign prior to that – on delivering a university into the southeast region with the economic and social benefits this will bring. The Institute has long performed at a university level according to accepted international metrics. The achievement of the criteria for university designation set out by the Higher Education Authority (HEA) remains the Institute’s focus and underpins all decisions in this process.
The Institute stands over the governing body decision last month to suspend merger activities with Institute of Technology Carlow and to engage with the Department of Education & Skills and the Higher Education Authority about its belief that such a merger will not yield the technological university that the southeast requires. This had been the primary rationale for the proposed merger.
WIT welcomes the commitment of Minister O’Sullivan and the government to delivering a university in the southeast and will continue to work with the Department of Education & Skills, the Higher Education Authority and all stakeholders to explore alternative options. While noting the appointment by the Minister of Mr Michael Kelly, former chair of the Higher Education Authority, the Institute will not enter any proposed process which forces a merger that is incapable of delivering on the criteria for becoming a technological university.
Ends

I got that ^^^ today by email

fiachr_a

robtri wrote: »

I agree we should be investing in more universities...
I was just asking the question, what makes WIT favourable for upgrade....
It is all well and good we all wanting WIT to be upgraded... me included...
but wanting it, is not enough... is being good at research enough to warrant an upgrade...

Where are all the tech jobs in Waterford waiting to get filled by university graduates?

Hijpo

fiachr_a wrote: »

Where are all the tech jobs in Waterford waiting to get filled by university graduates?

TSSG would benefit greatly, who knows what that could bring alone. Then there's this technology park that's meant to go into the old Waterford glass site and is there another technology building being constructed across from Whitfield?
Then theres anything that may come to dungarvan, south Kilkenny.
The benefits of having a university expands to the region and not just the city and county.

7upfree

fiachr_a wrote: »

Where are all the tech jobs in Waterford waiting to get filled by university graduates?

Chicken and egg situation. The availability of graduates will cause the tech companies to locate. Seeing as there's no university.........

Figerty

7upfree wrote: »

Chicken and egg situation. The availability of graduates will cause the tech companies to locate. Seeing as there's no university.........

You might be assuming that you have a laying hen there...

Fate Amenable To Change

fiachr_a wrote: »

Where are all the tech jobs in Waterford waiting to get filled by university graduates?

There's plenty, Arclabs for example have a good few coming up every year. FeedHenry just got taken over by redhat and have been recruiting quite a few people in the last few years. There are also plenty of smaller firms that need developers but aren't tech companies. Add Kilkenny and Wexford in and are you're adding even more, the likes of Glanbia and Donedeal for example.

Do you have any clue what you're talking about?

Fate Amenable To Change

Figerty wrote: »

You might be assuming that you have a laying hen there...

Read the above post, we do. We want a bigger one.

wellboytoo

fiachr_a wrote: »

Where are all the tech jobs in Waterford waiting to get filled by university graduates?

Mr positivity jumps in again to show how little he knows......

Figerty

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

Read the above post, we do. We want a bigger one.

I know, more philosophical than realism. I understand the passion there is for the University. I, like many, simply believe that seven University's is enough for a country this size.

Who is going to train the technicians, Level 7's in the region to fill these Jobs if Waterford becomes a Uni? You can be damn sure that WIT won't want Apprentices, Technicians or Level 7 students on site in a University or it won't be seen as a real university... and it won't be by international standards.

All those Level 6 and 7 courses will have to be serviced elsewhere.... are you all willing to have those students travelling? To Cork, Limerick and Dublin? which has been stated by posters here as being too far?

fricatus

Figerty wrote: »

I know, more philosophical than realism. I understand the passion there is for the University. I, like many, simply believe that seven University's is enough for a country this size.

Who is going to train the technicians, Level 7's in the region to fill these Jobs if Waterford becomes a Uni? You can be damn sure that WIT won't want Apprentices, Technicians or Level 7 students on site in a University or it won't be seen as a real university... and it won't be by international standards.

All those Level 6 and 7 courses will have to be serviced elsewhere.... are you all willing to have those students travelling? To Cork, Limerick and Dublin? which has been stated by posters here as being too far?

It's a very fair point, but the solution would be to have both a university and an IT in Waterford. That's the situation in Galway, a city only a small bit bigger than Waterford (and which only overtook us about 20 years ago), so there's no reason why it wouldn't work here.

Fate Amenable To Change

Figerty wrote: »

I know, more philosophical than realism. I understand the passion there is for the University. I, like many, simply believe that seven University's is enough for a country this size.

Who is going to train the technicians, Level 7's in the region to fill these Jobs if Waterford becomes a Uni? You can be damn sure that WIT won't want Apprentices, Technicians or Level 7 students on site in a University or it won't be seen as a real university... and it won't be by international standards.

All those Level 6 and 7 courses will have to be serviced elsewhere.... are you all willing to have those students travelling? To Cork, Limerick and Dublin? which has been stated by posters here as being too far?

Those are developer jobs not technician/customer care jobs... nothing philisophical about the jobs created. Red Hat bought out Feed Henry for somewhere between 60 and 80 million, it was founded by a WIT graduate a few years ago, there are a rake of start ups housed in Arc Labs at the moment with WIT graduates and thats the tip of the iceberg, most computing students want to make their own startups. Getting a Uni makes it easier to draw in money and get grants for this. Computing is only one example, do a bit of research.

Universities offer level 7s, you're arguments aren't applicable.

imacman

Press release from Carlow below
This is so condescending and smug plus their assertion that they are 3 years away from the criteria is a lie
Waterford should just tell them to go f**k themselves


Press Statement from IT Carlow - (Friday November 14th) IT Carlow remains committed to delivering a multi campus technological university to serve the needs of the entire community in the South East region.

Higher Education Institutions must rise above narrow individual and institutional ambition so that we can focus on the needs of the community we serve. IT Carlow has shown its ability to do this and it has been recognised by the Sunday Times and others as one of the leading institutes of technology in this country.

Dr Patricia Mulcahy President of IT Carlow stated “we are on a clear trajectory to meet the high performance bar set for designation as Technological University. IT Carlow currently meets or exceeds 90% of the criteria for technological university designation. The Institute’s current strategic plan will lead us to meeting all of the criteria within a 3 year time frame.”

Individual institutes have different and often complementary strengths. Merging the strengths of two institutions is an important element of the technological university process. For instance IT Carlow can bring its expertise in areas such as IT infrastructure, governance and financial management to the table and this will assist Waterford Institute of Technology in addressing any current issues in these areas.

The Chairman of the Institute’s Governing Body, John Moore, said “We remain committed to a new type of institution that can build on the strengths of both institutions to deliver a high quality technological university for the South East region.”

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Jaysus I have been keeping an eye on this debate and that Carlow statement is pretty condescending. Can't see it doing anything except driving a wedge between the two institutes.

Max Powers

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Jaysus I have been keeping an eye on this debate and that Carlow statement is pretty condescending. Can't see it doing anything except driving a wedge between the two institutes.

yeah, it does read condescending like. Financial mgt! is that a little nod to the old directors spending etc. Using words like narrow ambition and other smacks of 'F-you'. At the same time, they are trying to gain the moral high ground by looking like a child that didnt do anything wrong. Its a mess. One thing I will say is, the 3 year ambition and the 90% of stuff sorted, we probably need another independent report to see where both colleges stand, where did that professor from England and his now removed report go....

imacman

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Jaysus I have been keeping an eye on this debate and that Carlow statement is pretty condescending. Can't see it doing anything except driving a wedge between the two institutes.

Its actually embarrassing for Carlow to release a statement like that that , completely unprofessional and should just harden WITs resolve to tell them where to go.Carlow seem to have a chip on their shoulder.

imacman

This press release combined with the vitriolic interview they did on KCLR against WIT it actually looks like Carlow don't want a merger but want to look like the good boys in class and leave all the blame for this falling apart to WIT.