Waterford University discussion

7upfree

fricatus wrote: »

The real question in Ireland is the distribution of our universities. There are four in the Dublin area and three in the rest of the country. This is patently wrong, and why we don't kick up a massive fuss about this is a mystery to me. Only a quarter of the population lives in Dublin, and even if you take the Greater Dublin Area as your measure, it's still only 40%, so there's a massive imbalance there.

There can't be universities everywhere of course, but what we should ensure is that they are spread out in such a way that they are close to as much as the population as possible. A map of Ireland showing the catchment areas of the universities reveals significant gaps in the south-east and north-west, with smaller gaps in the midlands and north-east.

These areas are essentially excluded from participating in the academic life of the nation at university level, which surely stops them from realising their true potential. I remember Garret Fitzgerald in one of his columns pondering why two cities of similar size in the '80s, Galway and Waterford, had such divergent paths when it came to their growth and the success of the local economy, and it struck me as odd that such an analytical man didn't immediately mention that Galway had both an IT and a university, whilst Waterford had only an IT.

I seem to remember someone else (I can't remember who) saying that part of Galway's success was because it had "two world-class theatre companies". If that isn't the most patronising nonsense I've ever read, I don't know what is! But even that makes sense on a certain level, because a university makes a unique contribution to the intellectual and artistic life of a place through the creativity of its academics and students, which goes beyond the obvious economic benefits.

If Waterford and the wider south-east can live up to their potential, it will benefit Ireland immensely. We don't want to be also-rans in this country, and we don't have to be. We've got this far on our own. We just need government to stop hindering our progress now!

UCG and UL. Sixty miles apart. Nuff said. How many times do the economic and health benefits of a UW have to be pointed out to some people!

Dum_Dum

Einhard wrote: »

... In an ideal world I'd be all for a university in Waterford. However, there is only so much money in the pot. If Waterford gets university status, then either the budget for the sector would have to be increased- which won't happen- or the existing institutions will have their cut.
...

Ah yes - the magic money pot! We know all about this pot in Waterford. When all the goodies have been handed out - suddenly this pot appears from nowhere! It's really the bowl of scraps, handed down from the feast table with the usual well fed, ruddy faced suspects gorging at it.

fricatus

Einhard wrote: »

In an ideal world I'd be all for a university in Waterford. However, there is only so much money in the pot. If Waterford gets university status, then either the budget for the sector would have to be increased- which won't happen- or the existing institutions will have their cut.

No new institution is being set up. WIT would just carry its budget with it from the IoT sector into the university sector. It would probably need marginal extra funding to bring it up to university standards, and probably also some capital funding, but the sort of money we're talking about is no justification for holding up a necessary development.

And if some institutions have some of their funding cut for this, then why not? If it's spread across seven of them, then it shouldn't cause unbearable pain. And anyway, the whole way that sector is funded needs review - university fees will probably have to come back sooner or later. It's an ongoing problem and cannot be used as a justification for holding us back yet again.

7upfree

fricatus wrote: »

No new institution is being set up. WIT would just carry its budget with it from the IoT sector into the university sector. It would probably need marginal extra funding to bring it up to university standards, and probably also some capital funding, but the sort of money we're talking about is no justification for holding up a necessary development.

And if some institutions have some of their funding cut for this, then why not? If it's spread across seven of them, then it shouldn't cause unbearable pain. And anyway, the whole way that sector is funded needs review - university fees will probably have to come back sooner or later. It's an ongoing problem and cannot be used as a justification for holding us back yet again.

Well said. There is a concerted effort in the political world and the educational establishment to prevent this. The arguments against are null and void.

Anyone trying to negate this upgrade is just waffling TBH.

fricatus

7upfree wrote: »

Well said. There is a concerted effort in the political world and the educational establishment to prevent this. The arguments against are null and void.

Anyone trying to negate this upgrade is just waffling TBH.

These things change anyway over time... the money thing only became an issue after 2008 because the Exchequer had been awash with cash up until then.

The excuse being used at that time was that university enrolment was falling, and that we didn't need so many places - and certainly not a new university! Of course not, because everyone was just doing plumbing and carpentry apprenticeships, or working as estate agents!

Now, demand for university places is rising, because people have realised once again that the best way to ensure you'll be employed in the future is to get as well educated as you can.

It's the perfect time to make WIT a university, the region needs one, and there's an institution already there which is ready to make the leap. Vested interests are all that is holding this back.

imacman

fricatus wrote: »

These things change anyway over time... the money thing only became an issue after 2008 because the Exchequer had been awash with cash up until then.

The excuse being used at that time was that university enrolment was falling, and that we didn't need so many places - and certainly not a new university! Of course not, because everyone was just doing plumbing and carpentry apprenticeships, or working as estate agents!

Now, demand for university places is rising, because people have realised once again that the best way to ensure you'll be employed in the future is to get as well educated as you can.

It's the perfect time to make WIT a university, the region needs one, and there's an institution already there which is ready to make the leap. Vested interests are all that is holding this back.

well said , lets take the politics out of this

fiachr_a

If WIT turns into a university then the points will automatically go up. That will mean a lot of local students won't be able to get in anymore. Waterford students will end up going to somewhere like Carlow IT instead. This new university won't benefit everyone in the city.

Harry Palmr

fiachr_a wrote: »

If WIT turns into a university then the points will automatically go up. That will mean a lot of local students won't be able to get in anymore. Waterford students will end up going to somewhere like Carlow IT instead. This new university won't benefit everyone in the city.

That's the point isn't it? A university that any local can get into is not worth the candle! You need to push the benchmark standard up.

Digital Society

Harry Palmr wrote: »

That's the point isn't it? A university that any local can get into is not worth the candle! You need to push the benchmark standard up.

An increase in the intelligence of the average student would be seen as an improvement alright.

Figerty

fricatus wrote: »

No new institution is being set up. WIT would just carry its budget with it from the IoT sector into the university sector. It would probably need marginal extra funding to bring it up to university standards, and probably also some capital funding, but the sort of money we're talking about is no justification for holding up a necessary development.

And if some institutions have some of their funding cut for this, then why not? If it's spread across seven of them, then it shouldn't cause unbearable pain. And anyway, the whole way that sector is funded needs review - university fees will probably have to come back sooner or later. It's an ongoing problem and cannot be used as a justification for holding us back yet again.

So what you are saying is that all Waterford needs is a name change? If it was it that easy it would have been done by not. Nobody outside Waterford believes in it.

Ireland does not need another university that will only drag down the other seven as you are suggesting. In other words, pull them further down the rankings.

How far is Waterford from Cork, Dublin or Limerick by car
I checked.. It's 1 hour 49 min according to Google maps.
It's 1 hour 42 minutes from UCC
It's 1 hours 55 from to UL.

Get real people, Waterford isn't stuck somewhere like Nebraska. The regional argument is bogus.

If you put all the students in the University sector into one National University we would have the population of a reasonably large US University.

Perhaps Waterford would need to look to itself to see what it can do for itself. I know of companies who won't set up their because of the local mindset, some of which harks back to overly unionised factories.

7upfree

Figerty wrote: »

So what you are saying is that all Waterford needs is a name change? If it was it that easy it would have been done by not. Nobody outside Waterford believes in it.

Ireland does not need another university that will only drag down the other seven as you are suggesting. In other words, pull them further down the rankings.

How far is Waterford from Cork, Dublin or Limerick by car
I checked.. It's 1 hour 49 min according to Google maps.
It's 1 hour 42 minutes from UCC
It's 1 hours 55 from to UL.

Get real people, Waterford isn't stuck somewhere like Nebraska. The regional argument is bogus.

If you put all the students in the University sector into one National University we would have the population of a reasonably large US University.

Perhaps Waterford would need to look to itself to see what it can do for itself. I know of companies who won't set up their because of the local mindset, some of which harks back to overly unionised factories.

We've been listening to that crap for years. There are two universities 60 miles apart on the West Coast. An entire region has been laid waste because of gombeen politics. Scotland - population five million. FIFTEEN Universities.

And please - that old "union" argument has been flogged to death. If we were playing on a level playing field with the other cities it would be a far different story.

Figerty

7upfree wrote: »

We've been listening to that crap for years. There are two universities 60 miles apart on the West Coast. An entire region has been laid waste because of gombeen politics.

And please - that old "union" argument has been flogged to death. If we were playing on a level playing field with the other cities it would be a far different story.

It's not 'crap' it's real. Donegal is worse served by Irish Universities than Waterford. Waterford hasn't been laid waste. That is nonsense and no one believes it either. No one outside Waterford believes the regional argument.

The Union argument still lives and breathes. I know it; I have been in meetings with industrialists who know the reality and are reluctant/unwilling to set-up because of it. It's the mindset rather than a union issue; it's a carry over.

Waterford IT has a long way to go before it even comes near University standards. I have heard about the IT system and management attitude long before this hit the news.

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fawlty-towers-at-wit/

Fate Amenable To Change

Figerty wrote: »

It's not 'crap' it's real. Donegal is worse served by Irish Universities than Waterford.

How is Donegal doing?

Figerty

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

How is Donegal doing?

Worse than Waterford.....give them a university!

I knew someone would jump on that.

Cabaal

Harry Palmr wrote: »

That's the point isn't it? A university that any local can get into is not worth the candle! You need to push the benchmark standard up.

So higher standard but the locals loose out because they now have to travel to go to third level,

Traveling involves more money, which means less locals are likely to go to third level. I guess thats a "win, win? eh"

shruikan2553

Being from Donegal means I get a great laugh from people thinking they are far away from universities. People are at least an extra hour than Waterford from a university and yet you don't here any plans for Sligo or letterkenny to be upgraded. You can hardly expect the entire country to be close to one.

Harry Palmr

Cabaal wrote: »

So higher standard but the locals loose out because they now have to travel to go to third level,

Traveling involves more money, which means less locals are likely to go to third level. I guess thats a "win, win? eh"

Well what would you suggest? A special points discount for locals? Where is the cut off? the City? The county? 30 miles radius?

fiachr_a

They'd probably do what TCD does and allow in a certain % from the inner city ignoring the points they didn't get. A university for Waterford is about as useful as a new hockey pitch, it'll only benefit the wealthier people!

CatFromHue

Getting in is one thing, passing the exams another.

Fate Amenable To Change

Figerty wrote: »

Worse than Waterford.....give them a university!

I knew someone would jump on that.

Don't be facetious, I pointed it out because its obvious, apparently even to you. Developing third level education up there would provide a meaningful improvement to their economy.

Cabaal

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Well what would you suggest? A special points discount for locals? Where is the cut off? the City? The county? 30 miles radius?

I'm not suggesting anything,

I'm merely pointing out that it has a big downside for the people of Waterford, that being that it will make getting into the college much harder and this means increased college costs as they are more likely to have to attend college outside of Waterford.

if people can't afford these extra costs then this equates to less people in Waterford attending third level, this means less qualifications and less job opportunity's open to them due to his.

Its not just as simple as a Uni for Waterford is all "win win" for the city and its people, there are downsides.

7upfree

Figerty wrote: »

It's not 'crap' it's real. Donegal is worse served by Irish Universities than Waterford. Waterford hasn't been laid waste. That is nonsense and no one believes it either. No one outside Waterford believes the regional argument.

The Union argument still lives and breathes. I know it; I have been in meetings with industrialists who know the reality and are reluctant/unwilling to set-up because of it. It's the mindset rather than a union issue; it's a carry over.

Waterford IT has a long way to go before it even comes near University standards. I have heard about the IT system and management attitude long before this hit the news.

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fawlty-towers-at-wit/

Absolutely disagree 100%. Errant nonsense consistently put forwards by those with agendas in the educational and political establishment. No two ways about it.

Figerty

7upfree wrote: »

Absolutely disagree 100%. Errant nonsense consistently put forwards by those with agendas in the educational and political establishment. No two ways about it.

There are two ways,, and we arent going to agree on it.
If wit ever gets uni status, which I doubt, it will mean the elimination of technician and level 7 programmes. Call that regional development?

All the money and effort that has been poure into the wit campaign has obviously impacted on the day to day running. The last WIT president and the current president have not covered the place in any glory. All of which undermines the campaign.

fuzzy dunlop

Cabaal wrote: »

I'm not suggesting anything,

I'm merely pointing out that it has a big downside for the people of Waterford, that being that it will make getting into the college much harder and this means increased college costs as they are more likely to have to attend college outside of Waterford.

if people can't afford these extra costs then this equates to less people in Waterford attending third level, this means less qualifications and less job opportunity's open to them due to his.

Its not just as simple as a Uni for Waterford is all "win win" for the city and its people, there are downsides.

Not so. The upgrade to a Uni does not necessarily mean a huge hike in points as some here are suggesting. The demand for places in WIT/CIT/GMIT was always high anyway compared to colleges like Carlow/Athlone and Tralee. The arguement that some "local" students will lose out is not an arguement. This has always been the case and if that does occur then it simply means other alternatives have to be followed such as PLC courses, aprentiships, part time study etc. If the necessity to go to college is that high in an individual they will either make the grade or go a college where they do meet the criteria.More straw clutching....

fuzzy dunlop

Figerty wrote: »

It's not 'crap' it's real. Donegal is worse served by Irish Universities than Waterford. Waterford hasn't been laid waste. That is nonsense and no one believes it either. No one outside Waterford believes the regional argument.

The Union argument still lives and breathes. I know it; I have been in meetings with industrialists who know the reality and are reluctant/unwilling to set-up because of it. It's the mindset rather than a union issue; it's a carry over.

Waterford IT has a long way to go before it even comes near University standards. I have heard about the IT system and management attitude long before this hit the news.

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/fawlty-towers-at-wit/

Well you've said Waterford is better served by Uni and third level institutions then Donegal. It isn't Donegal has access to all of the NI institutions which are closer than the Dublin Institutions are to Waterford. Magee Campus and Coleraine are also closer that Cork is to Waterford that is before you even mention Leterkenny and Sligo IT. Which isn't bad when you consider how remote Donegal is. You've also said nobody outside of Waterford believes the regiopnal argumenet. Also incorrect. Ed Walsh has also made the regional arguement and it was also identified by the IDA and the port report. So I would take anything else you say with a huge pinch of salt. With regard to militancy its amazing that you and others solely rely on what they heard from "people you know" Industrialists indeed:D Its amazing the FT and other institutions that have endorsed Waterford failed to pick up on that. Its also amazing we never get these industrialists and bankers and various other high fliers people like you "know" to go on record. Probably because there is no hard evidence to support such BS.

shruikan2553

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Well you've said Waterford is better served by Uni and third level institutions then Donegal. It isn't Donegal has access to all of the NI institutions which are closer than the Dublin Institutions are to Waterford. Magee Campus and Coleraine are also closer that Cork is to Waterford that is before you even mention Leterkenny and Sligo IT. You've also said nobody outside of Waterford believes the regiopnal argumenet. Also incorrect. Ed Walsh has also made the regional arguement and it was also identified by the IDA and the port report. So I would take anything else you say with a huge pinch of salt. With regard to militancy its amazing that you and others solely rely on what they heard from "people you know" Industrialists indeed:D Its amazing the FT and other institutions that have endorsed Waterford failed to pick up on that. Its also amazing we never get these industrialists and bankers and various other high fliers people like you "know" to go on record. Probably because there is no hard evidence to support such BS.

If having ITs nearby is good enough then why would Waterford need a university?

fuzzy dunlop

shruikan2553 wrote: »

If having ITs nearby is good enough then why would Waterford need a university?

I never said it was good enough.

Figerty

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Well you've said Waterford is better served by Uni and third level institutions then Donegal. It isn't Donegal has access to all of the NI institutions which are closer than the Dublin Institutions are to Waterford. Magee Campus and Coleraine are also closer that Cork is to Waterford that is before you even mention Leterkenny and Sligo IT. Which isn't bad when you consider how remote Donegal is. You've also said nobody outside of Waterford believes the regiopnal argumenet. Also incorrect. Ed Walsh has also made the regional arguement and it was also identified by the IDA and the port report. So I would take anything else you say with a huge pinch of salt. With regard to militancy its amazing that you and others solely rely on what they heard from "people you know" Industrialists indeed:D Its amazing the FT and other institutions that have endorsed Waterford failed to pick up on that. Its also amazing we never get these industrialists and bankers and various other high fliers people like you "know" to go on record. Probably because there is no hard evidence to support such BS.

I know the location of Donegal and it proximity to all its third level neighbours. I didn't think I would need to point it .
Ed Walsh at this stage has become a mouthpiece for whatever social engineering project takes his fancy. He has lost huge credibility in the Last few years.
I'm not going to name people 'I know' on a web forum that. Simple as that, I can say that hand on heart that the perception of Waterford is that it's a difficult to get work done there.
I have no doubt there are plenty reports written about third level provision. The Post report is now 6 years old. It hasn't made a difference. It's not going to.

7upfree

Figerty wrote: »

I know the location of Donegal and it proximity to all its third level neighbours. I didn't think I would need to point it .
Ed Walsh at this stage has become a mouthpiece for whatever social engineering project takes his fancy. He has lost huge credibility in the Last few years.
I'm not going to name people 'I know' on a web forum that. Simple as that, I can say that hand on heart that the perception of Waterford is that it's a difficult to get work done there.
I have no doubt there are plenty reports written about third level provision. The Post report is now 6 years old. It hasn't made a difference. It's not going to.

Scotland. Population 5.2 million people. 15 Universities.

Ireland......well we all know the story.....

fuzzy dunlop

Figerty wrote: »

I know the location of Donegal and it proximity to all its third level neighbours. I didn't think I would need to point it .
Ed Walsh at this stage has become a mouthpiece for whatever social engineering project takes his fancy. He has lost huge credibility in the Last few years.
I'm not going to name people 'I know' on a web forum that. Simple as that, I can say that hand on heart that the perception of Waterford is that it's a difficult to get work done there.
I have no doubt there are plenty reports written about third level provision. The Post report is now 6 years old. It hasn't made a difference. It's not going to.

So in other words you ignore the bleedin' obvious because it doesn't suit you. The fact is Donegal's problems have never been attributed to university provision. Its problem is the border and its the natural hinterland of Derry City. There is no good reason to locate anything of any significance in Donegal. It has no strategic advantage at all from a commercial viewpoint. Likewise Ed Walsh. You don't like what he says so "He has lost credibility" He has more credibility than you are ever likely to have and the credentials to back it up!

So your not going to drop names? I suspect you would if you had them. Therefore its not worth the paper its printed on. Its more of the "I know a guy" nonsense. Again its strange the FT and IDA don't know these guys. The fact is that successive governments have now made moves to deliver a University to Waterford in some shape. This is driven by the political push from Waterford on this issue. This government is weak and only getting weaker. They might not deliver on it. But it indicates that it can happen