Waterford University discussion

Dunmoreroader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655773#Comment_119655773

Don't forget Wicklow, the heart of the Southeast so that'll be 1/5 of the students for Kilkenny. Are we leaving anyone out?

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655375#Comment_119655375

Christ the sense of entitlement they have in Kilkenny and Wexford towns is unbelievable. Only 11th and 22nd in population in the country!

imacman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655773#Comment_119655773

Absolutely the list of small campuses that failed across the country is long, Castlebar, Clonmel, Ennis and of course Maynooth in Kilkenny amongst others. Of course, none of local politicians are thinking about education when they make these demands, it's all about pr being able to say they brought a university to Kilkenny on the doorsteps at the next election. They don't give a damn whether it's actually viable or the costs to the taxpayer of another white elephant campus. They are like petulant children who want a new toy because their friends have already have it.

azimuth17

It is very hard to blame anyone in Wexford or Kilkenny for wanting a campus. If there is one in Kerry why not Wexford? Or one in Athlone, why not Kilkenny? The whole thing is daft and its hard to see how SETU will succeed in south east, being so politically fractured and dispersed. It was cooked up to prevent WIT reaching university status and in so doing , impinging on UCC and to a lesser extent UCD. UL (NIHE Limerick) escaped the Cork net by dint of political power and the Corkies never got over it. Cork has lobbied relentlessly to prevent another, shall we say traditional university emerging in the south east. UL had the political pull and regional support (from Clare, North Kerry and North Tipp) for a university of scale to benefit the mid west that Waterford never enjoyed from Wexford or Kilkenny despite thousands of kids from both those counties getting degree level education in WIT.

If Clonmel can have an LIT and a UL campus, anything is possible. The question really is what will they be doing in these small campuses? Will they suucceed? Will they have any impact on the thrid level market? How much will they cost to run and maintain? What impact will SETU have on the annual brain drain to traditional universities?

The 100 year campaign for university status in Waterford has been answered by Fine Gael with a quite deliberate solution, based on interurban envies, grounded in southeastern political realities (Hogan and Howlin and Wexford /Kilkenny) and exptrapolated thereafter for the country as a whole. It will, in my opinion anyway, cause more difficulties than the problem it was meant to address to the detriment of the south east. The more WIT grew from 1997 to 2006 the more determined politicians elsewhere in the south east became to rein it in.

Optimism is thin on the ground at present on the Cork Road I believe as politicians in FF FG Greens and SF all seek extra seats across the south east. Anything could happen and probably will.

914

Anyone want to remind the KK councillors that Kildalton College is aligned with SETU (although not an official campus) and has about 1400 students taken part in various courses in Kildalton.

fits

I can guarantee that UCC and UCD care not a joy about waterford. UCD don’t even care about students outside the Dublin area unless they are loaded or bring international fees. Waterford has an unbelievable inflated sense of its own importance.

azimuth17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656340#Comment_119656340

You are probably right. UCC and UCD care about their market share and will do everything in their power to preserve that. Waterford has always had a proper sense of its own importance being one of only four cities in the republic (til c 1990 when galway joined the list) It was on that basis that the campaign for university status started in the 1930s and no one down here has any apologies to make on that score. Why hould it bother you?

914

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40967822.html

Still no talk of new teaching buildings

invara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656340#Comment_119656340

This is both true and untrue. 99% of the university only care about education and do not think about education in commercial or strategic terms— they are curious about their own specialist project and simply want excellent students and resources.

Those who run Irish universities, the 1%, are mainly property developer types, they have borrowed millions for students' accommodation and the business cases for that accommodation (funded by EIB and the Irish Government agencies) include Irish students from the SE. This is costing the average SE family 6-9k per year which goes to the university on top of the 3k fee from the student, and the 6-10k fee paid by the government- a Dublin student is 9-13k of income for UCD, a Waterford student can be 20k. The capital payback for student accommodation is 7-10 years (building the university's balance sheet), after which student accommodation is a significant income stream for the university.

John Walsh, former advisor to Ruari Quinn wrote in his book 'An education' that he had never seen anything like the intensity of lobbying from Irish university presidents over the Waterford question.

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656340#Comment_119656340

WIT was externally assessed to be working at full university level, is the only institute of technology with a research institute and gains university level research funding. How is that “an unbelievable inflated sense of its own importance”?

Fred Daly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655981#Comment_119655981

What an on educated statement.

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119674772#Comment_119674772

😁 Learn to spell pal.

Why don’t you, using spell checker this time, make a point to discuss? Instead of posting childish one line comments.

Fred Daly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119675164#Comment_119675164

Your point was very small minded.

Fred Daly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119674772#Comment_119674772

What uneducated statement.

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119693291#Comment_119693291

My point is far from small minded. It is based on years of following regional and national politics and is perfectly valid. Your point, one woolly six word sentence! Again, why don’t you make a point to discuss? Instead of posting childish one line comments.

invara

So, Minister Harris will visit to launch SETU on the 24th. There are lots of indications and hope that he will be announcing progress on the capital projects (Crystal, PPP in Wd+Cw and Wx campus are all being talked about). Presuming he is not bringing builders in a van, it is likely that he is just announcing these projects advancing through the Dublin swamp (rather than the actual swamp of St John's Pill). How should we respond?

What quantum of funding looks serious for the TU?

With back-on-the-envelope costings- Crystal site ~20m, science & research building 60-80m (so €100m) + student accommodation on the private side of the site. PPPs in 2019 were WD 50m and Carlow 20m, guessing inflated since then. Wx is ~20m site, and 40m build to properly house existing SETU St Peter's operation with some growth.

So, on a good day, he could be announcing €250m in the next 3 years. Obviously, this is massive progress, after decades of nothing- but is it enough to deliver the gamechanger/catch aspiration of SETU? TUD is €1bn over 10-15 years, traditional universities are dropping 200-300m every 5 years, MTU had €150m agreed upfront for their merger (and that has no gamechanger element). My view, is that if done with aggression, sincerity and actual follow through it would be enough, the risk is it falls short (so €150m is not serious; 5 years is political code for never happening), and then the pattern of the last decade will reassert itself.

Can we believe it?

Even if our boat comes in (€250m+ in 3 yrs), naturally, there is huge scepticism of PR announcements, we have been burned too often to take them too seriously. Timing is vital, often these announcements are really announcing a delay in things that were already announced (like the PPPs), or even the filleting of a project (so smaller buildings such as the 2017 PPP announcement that vanished the business school building). My guess is that we will be underwhelmed and it will come over as a reannouncement of things that already should have happened a long time ago.

griffin100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704134#Comment_119704134

SETU can borrow the money to build infrastructure now can it not given that it's a University? As far as I aware IT's couldn't borrow. The EIB and the HFA can be used to borrow money at very low interest rates, although some capital grants will probable be needed. It needs to move away from the mindset of having to depend on central funding for everything.

https://www.thinkbusiness.ie/articles/ucc-investment-jobs/

https://www.ucd.ie/newsandopinion/news/2021/november/05/housingministervisitsbelfieldsnewhfafundedstudentaccommodation/

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704432#Comment_119704432

Someone please correct me if wrong but I don't think TU's have the same borrowing freedom as traditional universities and are handicapped in the same way IoT's were. Hence why many people are unhappy WIT wasn't promoted to a full standalone university or NUI. Its another reason why these TU's are really just the same old IoT's but with a name change over the door.

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704134#Comment_119704134

I would expect a big fat 0 from Harris.

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704134#Comment_119704134

€250 million for both Waterford and Carlow is what former president Willie Doyle said that was needed in order for SETU to be a success over a 10 year period I believe.

250million would welcome but leaves us short, it is also only welcome if time-frames are announced and committed to, how often have we seen the new engineering building announced?

27million was announced for waterford airport by government in 2006 for the runway and terminal expansion, talk is cheap, commitment is what we need to see.

Also the fact other TUs will also be looking to expand and the traditional Universities will continue to expand I don't see how the TU sector closes the gap on the traditional Universities.

SETU may become the top ranked TU in the country as WIT did in the IoT sector but I suspect we will never see a TU break into the University rankings.

friendlyfun

Any chance of an Engineering building? or any building at all? last building on that campus was like 2008.

griffin100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704491#Comment_119704491

The wording in the 2 Acts looks pretty similar to me, although there may be some nuances between the two.

TECHNOLOGICAL UNIVERSITIES ACT 2018 - 21. (1) Subject to subsection (2), a technological university, or any company in which the technological university has a proprietary interest, may borrow money by means of a bank overdraft or otherwise and may guarantee or underwrite a loan taken or borrowing undertaken by any person.

UNIVERSITIES ACT, 1997- 38.(1) A university may borrow money by means of bank overdraft or otherwise and may guarantee or underwrite a loan taken or borrowing undertaken by a person or a body of persons.

azimuth17

As far as I know, the relevant section of the act/s to allow IoTs or now SETU to borrow monet like the traditional universitoes has never been enacted by the minister.

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119705812#Comment_119705812

What is the, Subject to subsection (2), part? I'd that the section that has to be sanctioned by the minister.

I remember some huffing and puffing pre SETU from local politicians saying that they would be pushing and "hoping" that TUs would be allowed borrow money.

Like all things, Dublin TU and Munster TU will get the go ahead for borrowing and at best the remaining TUs will only be allowed to borrow for projects such as student accommodation

914

Subsection 2

An tÚdarás shall, from time to time with the approval of the Minister, given with the

consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister for

Finance, make rules to be complied with by a technological university in relation to

any borrowing, guaranteeing or underwriting under subsection (1) and any such rules,

which may be amended in like manner to which they are made, shall include rules

relating to—

(a) the purposes for which any proposed borrowing, guaranteeing or underwriting

may be undertaken by a technological university,

(b) the demonstration by a technological university of its ability to meet the costs

arising from any such borrowing, guaranteeing or underwriting,

(c) the identification of the potential for any such proposed borrowing, guaranteeing

or underwriting to give rise to additional costs for the State,

(d) the requirement for a technological university to obtain the prior approval of An

tÚdarás, which approval shall be subject to the consent of the Minister and which

consent is subject to the prior consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure and

Reform and the Minister for Finance, before borrowing, guaranteeing or

underwriting,

(e) the provision by a technological university to An tÚdarás of information relating

to any borrowing, guaranteeing or underwriting undertaken under subsection (1),

and

(f) the requirement to comply with the provisions of section 67 of the Credit

Institutions (Stabilisation) Act 2010

invara

For clarification- IoTs and TUs cannot borrow as the Minister has not approved a borrowing framework. In law, universities, TUs and IoTs have the same situation- the Minister needs to approve a borrowing framework.

For borrowing not to sit on the national debt state grants need to be less than 50% of the income of the body- the IoT sector has a higher block grant and lower fees (also paid by Govt) than the university sector, which the Govt has used to approve a borrowing framework for the universities. Old WIT had less than 50% income from grants (because of its high research income and campus developments), but it was lumped into the overall sector, in a opposite vein, at the time this was put in place (circa 2011/2), Maynooth relied on a state grant, but was put in the university bucket.

This is why WIT's development committee was crashed, despite it having a long history of prudent borrowing, and why WIT could not buy the crystal etc...

Harris has promised a borrowing framework for the TU sector for student accomodation, but nothing has emerged yet.

914

https://waterford-news.ie/2022/10/18/setu-president-says-multi-million-investment-needed-for-university/

Veronica Campbell said "I’m estimating at least €250m worth of capital infrastructure is needed in SETU.”

Did put going president of WIT Willy Donnelly not say SETU required €500 million to be a success.

€200 million for Waterford campus and €250 million for Carlow Campus?

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764467#Comment_119764467

There is a snowballs chance in hell that this government is going to invest even €250 million in SETU.

914

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119764940#Comment_119764940

We might see 250 but will it be of any use. New eng building, acquisition of crystal and Wexford site, new Wexford campus, new services building in Carlow and some student accommodation on the crystal site could all add up or come near to €250 million.

Would that get us near UCC, UL etc, no chance.

Interesting to hear the current president say SETU is busting at the seems just shows how little investment we have seen in Waterford.

914

Looks like any big announcement next week will be that SETU are allowed enter negotiations on the Crystal site, nothing concrete again and the minister will come arms swinging

https://www.wlrfm.com/news/waterford-crystal-setu-site-273856