Waterford University discussion

dashboard_hula

What would it be called? USE? U of W? TUWC?

Figerty

What do we think.. mickey mouse university status

Sully wrote: »

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0117/1224310362772.html

They said it would never happen, but its even closer now according to reports. Assuming this goes according to plan, can we gather up all the naysayers here on Boards and everywhere else and ask what they think now?

Good news for Waterford & The South East.

Nypd

Is this actually a good thing ?
We have to be more science oriented, so does this mean a complete reshuffle of courses,
Will the likes of Carlow get courses that are available in Waterford now meaning Waterford students having to move.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for progress I just need to understand fully what is happening.

nkay1985

dashboard_hula wrote: »

What would it be called? USE? U of W? TUWC?

TUSE I'd say.

Like a lot of others, I'm going to reserve judgement until this gets final approval and concrete plans are laid out for it. I'd love to see Waterford become the place where people go to specialise in a science or engineering course but it will require a lot of work for something like that to happen.

The point about the low level of PhDs is very interesting. I can't believe that many staff don't have one. I heard recently that to have any hope of getting a job in a university elsewhere in the country, you'd not only need a PhD but a post-doc too.

I'm also worried about the split between Waterford and Carlow. We've been left behind before and it's not like John Deasy, Paudy Coffey or Ciara Conway are going to have any weight behind them to ensure Waterford comes out of this well. We've been left behind before and I hope this won't be another example of that.

fricatus

I caught the tail end of Ivan Yates talking about the whole idea of a university for the south-east on Newstalk this morning. They were reviewing the papers, so they were clearly talking about some article or other, but I missed the start of the discussion.

Anyone got any idea what the article was? If so, can you post a link?

jmcc

fricatus wrote: »

I caught the tail end of Ivan Yates talking about the whole idea of a university for the south-east on Newstalk this morning. They were reviewing the papers, so they were clearly talking about some article or other, but I missed the start of the discussion.

Anyone got any idea what the article was? If so, can you post a link?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0117/1224310362772.html

Covered in the other thread here.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

The domains have already been registered too. Have been for quite a while.

Regards...jmcc

Guramoogah

Changing the name won't make a blind bit of difference because that's all it is: a change of name. Technological University of the SouthEast = Regional Technical College with delusions of grandeur.

gman2k

The lack of PHDs is only the beginning of the problem.
Many teaching staff have no teaching qualifications!

letsbet

gman2k wrote: »

The lack of PHDs is only the beginning of the problem.
Many teaching staff have no teaching qualifications!

What do you mean by teaching qualifications?

O Riain

gman2k wrote: »

The lack of PHDs is only the beginning of the problem.
Many teaching staff have no teaching qualifications!

Go way will ya its the same in every college/uni in Ireland, some lecturers are just away with the faeries and have no teaching skills whatsoever, as is the case with college, its up to YOU to figure it out. As ****e as that is sometimes.

djpbarry

As others have said, I'm not really sure this is a good idea? What's wrong with being an I.T.?

O Riain

djpbarry wrote: »

As others have said, I'm not really sure this is a good idea? What's wrong with being an I.T.?

Look if it means more funding, more students and possibly more courses then it is a good thing. Its certainly not a bad thing. Plus being the only Technological Institute out of technology will surely have to make it attractive to many potential students. Also its got that word University in there so will be easier for people to take it more seriously as an institution.

Anita Blow

Don't think this should be rushed just for the sake of being able to say it's a University. The other University presidents are dead right in saying letting ITs become Universities will lower our reputation unless certain standards are met.

If an IT wants to become a University then they should have a minimum percentage of lecturers with PHDs at or near the level of existing Universities. If that takes years then so be it. Our overall education standards are not something which should be sacrificed just so a few more ITs can become Universities.

djpbarry

O Riain wrote: »

Look if it means more funding, more students and possibly more courses then it is a good thing.

Where will this extra funding come from and why is a change in status required in order to secure it? And surely whether or not the change is a good thing depends on the nature and quality of the courses on offer?

O Riain wrote: »

Also its got that word University in there so will be easier for people to take it more seriously as an institution.

Virtually every third level institution in the UK has "university" in the name, but that doesn't mean they should all be "taken seriously".

MIT is lacking "University" in its name - is it not taken seriously?

There's nothing wrong with being an I.T. - intellectual snobbery should not be pandered to. If there's a good reason for this move that will improve third-level education standards in Ireland, then fair enough - I'm open to persuasion. But, to be honest, the only argument I've seen so far is "university is better than IT".

This looks like little more than a political PR stunt.

ec18

I don't think this will makes much of a difference as it says that the institute will be refocused away from what many people consider university subjects towards science and tech to meet labour needs thats what the IT's are supposed to be doing already.Besides which it looks likely that there will be one in dublin as well......probably soon after in cork as well.....just a rebranding imho, waste of time and a PR stunt

djpbarry

Anita Blow wrote: »

Don't think this should be rushed just for the sake of being able to say it's a University. The other University presidents are dead right in saying letting ITs become Universities will lower our reputation unless certain standards are met.

I think that misses the point that universities and IT’s are fundamentally different entities, or at least they are supposed to be. “Upgrading” an IT to a university is like trying to “upgrade” a train station to an airport.

ec18 wrote: »

I don't think this will makes much of a difference as it says that the institute will be refocused away from what many people consider university subjects towards science and tech...

Which wouldn’t be a bad thing. I’ve never understood why institutes of technology offer courses in areas such as business and humanities.

wellboytoo

Ahhh who lifted that rock and left all these people out into the sunlight? they never heard about this 30 year old campaign and they're going to fight it out here again now......................

mike65

Waiting for that fella from Cork to pop up.

Bards

why the two threads?

can we merge?

O Riain

djpbarry wrote: »

Where will this extra funding come from and why is a change in status required in order to secure it? And surely whether or not the change is a good thing depends on the nature and quality of the courses on offer?
Virtually every third level institution in the UK has "university" in the name, but that doesn't mean they should all be "taken seriously".

MIT is lacking "University" in its name - is it not taken seriously?

There's nothing wrong with being an I.T. - intellectual snobbery should not be pandered to. If there's a good reason for this move that will improve third-level education standards in Ireland, then fair enough - I'm open to persuasion. But, to be honest, the only argument I've seen so far is "university is better than IT".

This looks like little more than a political PR stunt.

As of now because W.I.T. is only an Institute of Technology it has next to zero international recognition. Whereas the Universitys do, just for being Universitys. It was clearly stated from the start of this Tech Uni debate that any institute looking to be upgraded will need to have more Phd level courses and more qualified teachers. This alone would make it a good thing.
I will agree though this is a complete cop out if every Institute gets rebranded as a tech uni, but hopefully this wont happen.
Another thing as well the traditional University courses some of them are completely useless, some are neccessary. Arts is neccessary to a certain extent but jesus for many people it is a complete and utter waste of time, money and resources. Way too many people doing it.

Grindylow

Wouldn't be called U__anything as it's a technological university, basically the same as an IT except with it's own awarding body like DIT has.

I seriously doubt it's going to happen any time in the near future. All that article says is they can apply from June this year, probably taking another year at least before a judgement is made on it (if a judgement is made), and I'm sure they'd have to meet a lot of requirements before they'd even be considered for it.

letsbet

djpbarry wrote: »

Which wouldn’t be a bad thing. I’ve never understood why institutes of technology offer courses in areas such as business and humanities.

That's hilarious.

djpbarry

O Riain wrote: »

As of now because W.I.T. is only an Institute of Technology it has next to zero international recognition. Whereas the Universitys do, just for being Universitys.

Well that explains why London South Bank University is the internationally acclaimed institution that it is.

O Riain wrote: »

It was clearly stated from the start of this Tech Uni debate that any institute looking to be upgraded will need to have more Phd level courses and more qualified teachers. This alone would make it a good thing.

Why? Why is increasing the number of universities in Ireland at the expense of IT’s automatically seen as a good thing?

letsbet wrote: »

That's hilarious.

Because?

Figerty

WIT would probably be the only University in the world with Apprentices!

letsbet

djpbarry wrote: »

Because?

Because it makes no sense. Technology doesn't just refer to science and IT. Should accounting not be taught? Finance. An IT should teach skills that are required in the work force not and it's a long time ago since ITs were just for trades and "high-tech" subjects. Do Universities not teach Science and IT? What a mircale that MIT became one of the best places to study business!

Psychedelic

Sully wrote: »

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0117/1224310362772.html

They said it would never happen, but its even closer now according to reports. Assuming this goes according to plan, can we gather up all the naysayers here on Boards and everywhere else and ask what they think now?

Good news for Waterford & The South East.

Not sure exactly what naysayers you're referring to - the people who said we wouldn't get university status or people who said we wouldn't get technological university status? FG and Labour promised university status pre-election, but only TU status in their programme for government when elected. In fairness to them it looks like things are finally starting to happen and they are trying to secure the TU uprage for WIT.

I would be concerned though about Carlow IT - not mentioned in the programme for government, it was all about TU status for WIT. Now it looks like Carlow IT will get to share the spoils of all the work done by WIT and the lobbying efforts of everyone in the South East (except those in Carlow) to get this upgrade. Still, it might work out, so I will reserve judgement for now.

Irish Times reporter Sean Flynn is saying there is big resistance from the Department of Education against this news:

Breaking News ! Dept denies new unis story. 100 per cent WRONG! Here's the deal ..big wheels in Cabinet want it .it will happen!

comeraghs

half the university in Carlow town & half in Waterford city with a HQ in Kilkenny town!

hmmmmm!

Sully

Bards wrote: »

why the two threads?

can we merge?

Sorry, probably better having a mega thread so iv moved mine into the old one!

djpbarry

letsbet wrote: »

Because it makes no sense. Technology doesn't just refer to science and IT. Should accounting not be taught? Finance.

Fair enough - I suppose it depends on the nature of the course.

letsbet

djpbarry wrote: »

Fair enough - I suppose it depends on the nature of the course.

It does I suppose. Anyway, the college has been getting more and more university style in the way it delivers modules and from what I see the Universities have been, to some degree, going in the opposite direction. In general, I'd have major concerns for the college if this goes ahead in the manner that many people fear. Only time will tell I suppose.

Dunmoreroader

Here's a little reading up for the uninformed ignoramuses that feel free to comment negatively every time this debate raises it's 30 year old head;
http://www.se4u.org/case.php
The case for a University for Waterford is irrrefutable, it was irrefutable 30 years ago. In fact it was irrefutable in 1845 when Queen's colleges were set up in Cork & Galway(present day UCC & NUIG).
The only reason that Waterford is the only one of our five cities not to have University status is the political stonewalling that has gone on for decades on behalf of the existing 7 Universities, the cities/town they are situated in, by the TD's in government from those cities and their allies in the permanent government i.e the dead hand of the civil service and the various other vested interests from particularly Cork & Dublin.
Ask yourself objectively who/where looses by Waterford attaining a University?
Everything else is just hot air.

Guramoogah

Has anyone noticed the Wexford University website: http://www.wexford.edu/

sonyvision

Im in WIT and tbh its a great college im in my 3rd year of college and live in Waterford city. The lectures in most cases are great they help you with any problems and encourage you to understand more of the subject and they go the extra mile.

But there is a but, the admin in the college is unbelievable, The start of this semester was monday the 16th, other time tables were put up a week before, but ours were put up the morning of the monday which is a joke, the course is very intense but I enjoy it, they put written exams on 5 days running, where the first years of the course had 4 exams split over 2 whole weeks. Even down to our exams 1 exam was missing from the timetable all together and when we asked about it we were told there would be no exam !!

Dunmoreroader

Well done the Yellowbellies, just waiting for the "Kilkenny City University" website to appear next.

O Riain

Delighted the Universities are furious, to me that means what they are giving us is something credible.

johnnykilo

With regard to the low level of PhD's in WIT, my understanding was that most lecturers while not holding PhD's had to be working towards getting them. I know personally that a lot (although probably not all) the lecturers are doing part time PhD's which obviously takes a number of years especially if doing it part-time. So while the figure of < 20% holding PhD's is probably correct, the figure including those studying towards them is probably closer to 50%.

letsbet

johnnykilo wrote: »

With regard to the low level of PhD's in WIT, my understanding was that most lecturers while not holding PhD's had to be working towards getting them. I know personally that a lot (although probably not all) the lecturers are doing part time PhD's which obviously takes a number of years especially if doing it part-time. So while the figure of < 20% holding PhD's is probably correct, the figure including those studying towards them is probably closer to 50%.

Great point. Also, the reason it will take a few years is that even those of us who are doing PhDs are teaching 18 hours a week while some university lecturers I know do 5 or 6 hours. It's a bit of a catch 22 really. In the business school ten years ago there was only 2 or 3 with PhDs. It's about 20 and rising now, which is good. It does have a way to go to catch up but the progress to date isn't too bad.

merlante

25% of the full time lecturing staff in WIT in 2010 had PhDs, up from 18% in 2007 (Institutional Review of Waterford Institute of Technology- 18- 20 May 2010). With a 7% increase in 3 years (the majority of new hires more than likely either having a PhDs or finishing one) the figure could be 30% by now. Add to that the fact that many staff are probably being kept on various types of contracts and therefore may not be counted as being in the statistics. Clearly newer staff are far more likely to have a PhD.

Also, the technological university will have to continue to run cert and diploma/ordinary degree courses, where a degree or masters may be sufficient. In fact, there's an argument to be made that it would be a waste of money having PhD staff teaching some of the more entry level courses.

That said, I think it would be difficult to get a teaching job in WIT without a PhD, especially in established areas like computing.

letsbet

Another factor that is significantly contributing to the increase in PhD percentage is the number of people retiring. At least ten have (or will soon be) retiring from the business school and only one of them had a PhD and I suppose over time that trend will continue.

dayshah

If I was studying accounting why would I want my lecturer to have a PhD?

A PhD is a qualification in research, so someone supervising a thesis should have one, but its nothing to do with teaching. Also PhDs are the standard qualification for things like economics or lots of sciences. But other subjects that are taught in WIT have their own qualification system totally distinct to academic ones are arguably more useful for undergrads.

letsbet

That's definitely true for accounting and some other subjects. Also some people do their research in areas that are way off the wall and not very applicable to what they teach but most people do use what they learn to improve their teaching imo. Obviously there are brilliant lecturers who would never even think about doing a PhD and there are those who have them who are absolutely useless lecturers but generally people who are willing to do a PhD are also willing to work very hard on improving their notes and keeping up to date with current research and business practice. There's always exceptions of course!

djpbarry

I would also be of the opinion that there is far too much emphasis being placed on the number of PhDs among the WIT lecturing staff - it really doesn't matter. I did my degree in UCD and several of my lecturers didn't have PhD's.

fricatus

From the Kilkenny People. Words fail me. Kilkenny will benefit massively from any university set up in Waterford, so why not just report the facts? I'm not aware that anyone will be stopped crossing the brige any time soon, so why do these journalists feel the need to possess it?

University for Kilkenny and the South East

MitchKoobski

fricatus wrote: »

From the Kilkenny People. Words fail me. Kilkenny will benefit massively from any university set up in Waterford, so why not just report the facts? I'm not aware that anyone will be stopped crossing the brige any time soon, so why do these journalists feel the need to possess it?

University for Kilkenny and the South East

They need something to talk about while they wait for the hurling to come back.

batm!ke

MitchKoobski wrote: »

They need something to talk about while they wait for the hurling to come back.

Ouch

djpbarry

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

Here's a little reading up for the uninformed ignoramuses that feel free to comment negatively every time this debate raises it's 30 year old head;
http://www.se4u.org/case.php
The case for a University for Waterford is irrrefutable...

I've had a quick look over the reports listed on that site and as far as I can see, they all put forward a case for regional higher education, but I'm not seeing any evidence that the upgrading of IT's to universities provides an economic benefit?

Dunmoreroader wrote: »

Ask yourself objectively who/where looses by Waterford attaining a University?

The people who have to pay for it?

mecco

djpbarry wrote: »

I've had a quick look over the reports listed on that site and as far as I can see, they all put forward a case for regional higher education, but I'm not seeing any evidence that the upgrading of IT's to universities provides an economic benefit?

The point moreso is that it's to the economic detriment of the region to not have a "top tier" (for want of a better term) institution as it is the only region without one and the region is put at a disadvantage because of this (the brain drain and lack of investment in this region that has been mentioned for years)

djpbarry wrote: »

The people who have to pay for it?

If by this you refer to taxpayers, then surely seeming as taxpayers in all regions are contributing, then taxpayers in all regions should benefit equitably?

mike65

fricatus wrote: »

From the Kilkenny People. Words fail me. Kilkenny will benefit massively from any university set up in Waterford, so why not just report the facts? I'm not aware that anyone will be stopped crossing the brige any time soon, so why do these journalists feel the need to possess it?

University for Kilkenny and the South East

All news is local.

Psychedelic

Former University of Limerick founder and former president Dr Ed Walsh shares my sentiments around the proposed amalgamation of WIT with Carlow IT into a Technological University. Unfortunately it appears that the heads of WIT are the ones actually pushing for the merger, and now with a president formerly of Carlow IT it seems inevitable we will have to settle for this.

Former UL head calls for stand alone uni in Waterford
The former President of the University of Limerick says Waterford should be a stand-alone university,and not amalgamated with Carlow IT.Doctor Ed Walsh is a long term supporter of Waterford's university ambition.This week the Irish Times reported that a Technological Univeristy of the South East incorporating Waterford and Carlow ITs has cabinet support.However Ed Walsh says an amalgamation is a mistake.

http://www.wlrfm.com/news-and-sport/waterford-news/140761.html

djpbarry wrote: »

I've had a quick look over the reports listed on that site and as far as I can see, they all put forward a case for regional higher education, but I'm not seeing any evidence that the upgrading of IT's to universities provides an economic benefit?
The people who have to pay for it?

The Goodbody Report on the Economic Impact of a University of the South East (2005) said that up to €96m would be generated in the region if WIT was made a university.