M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Jayuu

If the road is not going ahead what is the point in protecting the route? All that does is strand people who own land along the proposed route in limbo for years.

Chances are this road isn't even going to be on the agenda before 2020. If at some point a proposal to build an M20 comes back onto the agenda it can then be looked at in the context of land usage at that time.

And just because the M20 isn't being build that doesn't rule out smaller scheme to improve the quality of the current N20. In fact it potentially brings them further up the agenda.

CerebralCortex

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They will 'protect' the emerging preferred route. They will resume ( if ever) from that stage and with new and much cheaper CPOs and a new EIS.

Wonder what the story is with the section north of Charleville where they are preparing an EIS and final design??

Protect the route? There shouldn't be buildings on a national route anyway!

spacetweek

CerebralCortex wrote:

Protect the route? There shouldn't be buildings on a national route anyway!

It's not a national route until the land actually has a road built on it.

Sponge Bob

Another death.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1212/mallow.html

cjpm

Take the last 7 days, 4 incidents that I know of, and there are probably more that I am not aware of....



Last tuesday evening - Crash at Sugar Fact. Junction - approx 7 mile tailbacks heading North

Later that evening, crash north of Waterloo junction

Yesterday morning - 3 car crash at southbound Blarney off slip.

Yesterday evening - Pedestrian killed in New Twopothouse.



The Cork and Limerick politicians clearly don't care about this route, as it would definitly have been upgraded to Dual or M.Way during the "Celtic Tiger" era otherwise....

munchkin_utd

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Another death.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1212/mallow.html

sad to see a pedestrian killed by a truck,
but theres nothing to stop pedestrians walking on the motorway either (This is Ireland where the guards turn a blind eye to anything south of murder - or VRT/ Car tax offences)
Also....
If the motorway gets tolled there'll still be lorries a plenty on the "old" N20 which is what ran over this pedestrian.

corktina

nonsense kind of post isnt that?

spacetweek

munchkin_utd wrote: »

sad to see a pedestrian killed by a truck,
but theres nothing to stop pedestrians walking on the motorway either.

What absolute nonsense.

munchkin_utd

corktina wrote: »

nonsense kind of post isnt that?

nope.

re the mini rant against the guards. Indeed a little left of centre.
But the point I was making was that just because a motorway exists and has laws against pedestrians doesnt mean that people wont walk on it or respect the law.
From the Irish Independent Tuesday April 12 2011 "Carnage on our motorways as one in five killed is pedestrian"
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/carnage-on-our-motorways-as-one-in-five-killed-is-pedestrian-2616058.html
And of that statistic, 3 pedestrians were already killed in the 4 months to April 2011.
Laws are only as good as their enforcement, and the guards somethimes focus on niche interests like VRT or fuel smuggling and let laws like for instance (for decades) accompanied provisional drivers or jay walking or cycling/ walking on a motorway, go on the whole unpunished or addressed.

So, the M20 will stop pedestrian deaths as there'll not be pedestrians on the motorway? No it wont. And till people think its not ok to walk on the motorway, we'll continue to see people getting killed whilst out for a dander on their local motorway.

Another case that is being made for the M20 is that it will dramatically increase safety as the majority of traffic will no longer be on the old road and you'll have less accidents as a result.
The old road being quieter and the motorway being inherently safer being the thinking there.

If its user tolled which seems to be the only way it'll happen in the current economic climate, then it will be ignored by a large section of the commuters and hauliers in favour of continuing to use the old road.
Meaning, should the M20 be built as a toll, the old road will still be damn busy and not significantly safer than currently.

So again, the M20 isnt going to bring a miracle cure to accidents on the Limerick/Cork route should it be tolled.

I do agree that the M20 should be in place by now. But unless its toll free and the guards clamp down on muppets cycling and walking on the motorway, you wont see the safety benefits that some claim the road will bring.

dubhthach

I would imagine it would reduce the level of potential pedestrian deaths on the Limerick <-> Cork corridor mainly as there will be considerably fewer ways to get on/off the road (Motorway junction), as oppose to the current N20 which has considerable number of entrances in comparison.

SeanW

munchkin_utd wrote: »

nope.

re the mini rant against the guards. Indeed a little left of centre.
But the point I was making was that just because a motorway exists and has laws against pedestrians doesnt mean that people wont walk on it or respect the law.
From the Irish Independent Tuesday April 12 2011 "Carnage on our motorways as one in five killed is pedestrian"
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/carnage-on-our-motorways-as-one-in-five-killed-is-pedestrian-2616058.html
And of that statistic, 3 pedestrians were already killed in the 4 months to April 2011.
Laws are only as good as their enforcement, and the guards somethimes focus on niche interests like VRT or fuel smuggling and let laws like for instance (for decades) accompanied provisional drivers or jay walking or cycling/ walking on a motorway, go on the whole unpunished or addressed.

So, the M20 will stop pedestrian deaths as there'll not be pedestrians on the motorway? No it wont. And till people think its not ok to walk on the motorway, we'll continue to see people getting killed whilst out for a dander on their local motorway.

Another case that is being made for the M20 is that it will dramatically increase safety as the majority of traffic will no longer be on the old road and you'll have less accidents as a result.
The old road being quieter and the motorway being inherently safer being the thinking there.

If its user tolled which seems to be the only way it'll happen in the current economic climate, then it will be ignored by a large section of the commuters and hauliers in favour of continuing to use the old road.
Meaning, should the M20 be built as a toll, the old road will still be damn busy and not significantly safer than currently.

So again, the M20 isnt going to bring a miracle cure to accidents on the Limerick/Cork route should it be tolled.

I do agree that the M20 should be in place by now. But unless its toll free and the guards clamp down on muppets cycling and walking on the motorway, you wont see the safety benefits that some claim the road will bring.

Depressing, but true.

Wild Bill

The actual huge reduction in road deaths in Ireland in the past 5 or 6 years is primarily due to the motorway network - period.

Also the vastly improved quality of road markings, signage and remedial works at dangerous junctions etc.

Enforcement (of any traffic laws) comes far behind in terms of impact. :cool:

Ireland currently has amongst the safest roads in Europe.

cjpm

Talks bid to revive motorway

CORK county engineer Noel O’Keeffe is to lead a delegation to Dublin in an attempt to get the €800 million Cork-Limerick motorway back on track.

The county council had spent nearly €20m designing the 80km motorway before the National Roads Authority recently decided it did not have the money to proceed.

A special meeting of the council’s Northern Committee will take place shortly in Mallow to discuss the situation. It is envisaged a delegation of councillors, led by Mr O’Keeffe, will meet NRA officials and Transport Minister Leo Varadkar next month. Councillors will be pressing to reverse the decision, but may have to compromise by agreeing, to at best, the motorway being built on a piecemeal basis.

The motorway was designed to run from Blarney Business Park to Croom, Co Limerick, and was to be built through a Public Private Partnership (PPP).

The NRA also ordered the council to cancel a Bord Pleanála oral hearing which was to be held last week on the proposed junction connection to the motorway from Buttevant.

If the hearing had gone ahead and its board had decided, as expected, to approve the motorway, the council could have issued Compulsory Purchase Orders for the land required.

Mr O’Keeffe said the council had spent €19.5m to date on a project "which was now on the shelf". Even if the minister and the NRA do an about-turn the council, he said, would "unfortunately start over again".

The need for a major upgrading of the N20 has been stated time and time again as several sections of it are accident blackspots.



Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/talks-bid-to-revive-motorway-177230.html#ixzz1gavmHg2Y

Hogzy

lol good luck to him. There is not a hope in hell he will get a cent towards it until at least 2020 but hats off for trying.

€20m on design. WTF?

spacetweek

Wild Bill wrote: »

The actual huge reduction in road deaths in Ireland in the past 5 or 6 years is primarily due to the motorway network - period.

Bill, this can't be right. If lower traffic levels mean a lower accident rate, how do you explain that the accident rate was a lot higher several decades ago - when traffic levels were far lower?

I put the deaths reduction down to a combination of factors - chiefly better driver testing, less drink driving, and better roads.

it will be ignored by a large section of the commuters and hauliers in favour of continuing to use the old road.

This doesn't seem to happen much in practice. The journey time savings and increased safety that new motorways bringing always end up trumping objections to tolls.

SeanW

spacetweek wrote: »

This doesn't seem to happen much in practice. The journey time savings and increased safety that new motorways bringing always end up trumping objections to tolls.

When I lived in Dublin and visited family in Longford, I would frequently go home of a Monday evening (dodging the toll of course because it was €2.90 I could easily save) only to often find that the ENTIRE road from Enfield to Kilcock was literally one long string of vehicles going in the other direction.

Tolls = toll dodging. It's unavoidable.

Wild Bill

spacetweek wrote: »

Bill, this can't be right. If lower traffic levels mean a lower accident rate, how do you explain that the accident rate was a lot higher several decades ago - when traffic levels were far lower?

Puxxled!

I never mentioned traffic levels!

veryangryman

SeanW wrote: »

When I lived in Dublin and visited family in Longford, I would frequently go home of a Monday evening (dodging the toll of course because it was €2.90 I could easily save) only to often find that the ENTIRE road from Enfield to Kilcock was literally one long string of vehicles going in the other direction.

Tolls = toll dodging. It's unavoidable.

You dont think theres a significant amount of that traffic that live in Enfield/Kilcock/Moyvalley/Clonard commuters and people going from one of those towns to another where it would be stupid to use the tolled section? This area is commuter-land to our nations capital.

In any case, the motorway is there for people going on LONG journeys. While it does inadertantly serve as a commuter line, its primary function is inter-urban, hence why it both starts and ends in cities. And of course, that do commute daily would of course skip a toll; were not millionaires. Coming from as far as Kinnegad and beyond is madness for commuting anyway.

dee2dee

Just noticed on the An Bord Pleanala website that the M20 Cork - Limerick Motorway SchemeApplication was withdrawn on 22/11/2011.

So even if a pot of gold is found, will it now have to go back to the start again?

L1011

dee2dee wrote: »

Just noticed on the An Bord Pleanala website that the M20 Cork - Limerick Motorway SchemeApplication was withdrawn on 22/11/2011.

So even if a pot of gold is found, will it now have to go back to the start again?

The EIS, planning application etc should be fine to resubmit. I would hope the councils refuse any permission on the route as a matter of course.

Gravesend

Hi

On the Cork - Limerick Motorway I was wondering does the suspension of the project mean that the €20million spent to date is lost and that the whole process has to be started from start if and when the go ahead is given?

Thanks

Gravesend

charlemont

Gravesend wrote: »

Hi

On the Cork - Limerick Motorway I was wondering does the suspension of the project mean that the €20million spent to date is lost and that the whole process has to be started from start if and when the go ahead is given?

Thanks

Gravesend

The €20 Million is the paddy tax , Gone down the drain never to be seen again. Ireland being Ireland its quiet likely it will have to start from scratch again.

Gravesend

Amazing to think that this would be the case

Surely wouldn't the work already done be still valid for a Bord Pleanala hearing?

Why would it all have to be redone?

Wild Bill

Gravesend wrote: »

Why would it all have to be redone?

By the time we have the money to consider starting this project, several Ice Ages will have scoured the landscape - so the geomorphology will have changed utterly

hi5

Gravesend wrote: »

Amazing to think that this would be the case

Surely wouldn't the work already done be still valid for a Bord Pleanala hearing?

Why would it all have to be redone?

Because in the meantime somebody will be given planning permission for a bungalow slap bang in the middle of it.

Sponge Bob

Wild Bill wrote: »

By the time we have the money to consider starting this project,

Not quite Bill, we have learnt our lesson on the value of Motorways so there will be a Cork-Galway motorway in our lifetimes I feel.

Sure County Cork pulls in more in dole payments in an average year than the Cork - Buttevant section would cost.

antoobrien

Gravesend wrote: »

On the Cork - Limerick Motorway I was wondering does the suspension of the project mean that the €20million spent to date is lost and that the whole process has to be started from start if and when the go ahead is given?

Gravesend

AFAIK the process doesn't restart.

The EIS and other documents drawn up will be still valid. The stated intention of the government at the time of the suspension of the majority of the projects was to finish the current stage of planning so that they could be resumed from that point at an unspecified future date.

A lot will depend of the relevant county councils not giving planning permissions along the proposed routes (so as to avoid high CPO costs) and the like but theres no legal reason I know of why they couldn't restart from the current stage.

A practical reason would be the argument that they'd be better off to build the M24 Limerick to Waterford and Link it to the M8 at Cahir or Mitchelstown (there was mention of something like this in another thread), making the remaining M8 into Cork 3 lane instead of 2 lane.

antoobrien

hi5 wrote: »

Because in the meantime somebody will be given planning permission for a bungalow slap bang in the middle of it.

That won't be a problem, I know of a couple on the proposed route of the GCOB that are for it if the eastern section gets the go ahead. CPOs are wonderful in that regard (but a curse when you're losing the land). Not sure of the status of the houses in question but I think they are rented out.

bk

antoobrien wrote: »

A lot will depend of the relevant county councils not giving planning permissions along the proposed routes (so as to avoid high CPO costs) and the like but theres no legal reason I know of why they couldn't restart from the current stage.

In fairness Cork City and County Council are pretty good in this regard, just look at the excellent LUTS and CASP plans that they have been planning for since the 70's.

Cork seems to have a longer term vision then most other counties.

antoobrien

bk wrote: »

In fairness Cork City and County Council are pretty good in this regard, just look at the excellent LUTS and CASP plans that they have been planning for since the 70's.

Cork seems to have a longer term vision then most other counties.

cheers

I remember GCC knocking (fairly suddenly) a vacant house in order to build the DC on front of the racecourse (since re-designated the N6).

I suppose I should point out that the two houses in question were built after the preferred route was announced. It's suspected by many in the area that they were built to get maximum return on the CPO (you don't get much for a plot of land with PP if there's nothing on it).