M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

KrisW1001

@cjpm I have been in favour of an M20 being built since the first round of interurban dual-carriageways were upgraded to motorways in the early 2000s. M20 is an appalling road, with numerous bottlenecks and unsafe sections, and it needs a new alignment purely on safety grounds.

In both my posts above, I said that I would prefer a Type 1 DC all the way through (Type 1 DC and “motorway” are the same thing in engineering terms). The use of a 2+2 for the low-traffic section in the middle is not my preferred option, but it is one I would be happy with: the very low traffic section from north of Mallow to Croom, is, and will continue to be, well within the limits of a 2+2, and 2+2 solves the most important issue here, which is driver safety.

Also, 2+2 roads have attracted less objections than anything labelled as a “motorway”, which can be useful given the lengths to which some people are prepared to go just to stop motorways.

What would not be acceptable is 2+2 all the way to Cork, as the southern end of N20 is a major commuter corridor, and traffic volumes exceed what a 2+2 can carry. I don’t like that so much of the traffic here is car commuters, but even if you got all of those drivers onto public transport, you’d still need Type 1 DC for the commercial traffic in and out of Cork here. (The M20 approach to Limerick is already a motorway).

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628708#Comment_118628708

While you might get high speed agriculture machinery on a dual carriageway most of this would be owned by contractors. The vast majority of agriculture machinery is maxed out at 40 km/ h. There is an awful lot that have lower speeds than that

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630662#Comment_118630662

Limerick and Waterford have motorway virtually all the way I to the city. There is no reason motorway could not be carried right up to the existing DC at Blarney.

Danno

It should be M20 the whole way. Future proof it, our population is growing, vehicles are getting bigger and faster.

The motorist is fleeced in the country for charges - afford him/her a little comfort while you sip on free water.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118631088#Comment_118631088

All for a different thread, but the myth of the "hard pressed motorist" is way outside of the reasons to build the M20. The fictional "hard pressed motorist" is near enough to the worst possible reason to justify the M20

We spend enormous sums of money on ensuring that inefficient single-person vehicles can go wherever they want, to the detriment to other modes. I would say that motorists are paying nowhere near enough for that privilege. They're likely not contributing as much to the exchequer as they receive. Motoring remains the cheapest, easiest, most convenient form of transport available in Ireland. We desperately need to make other modes easier, more convenient and cheaper than motoring.

I say this as a motorist: don't go down that proverbial road!

Danno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118634849#Comment_118634849

The Irish motorist contributes €6.2 billion to the Irish exchequer each year and doesn't get within an asses roar of that figure spent on roads. (source: Motor vehicles generate €6.2bn in taxes for State, says report (irishtimes.com))

Not having a motorway between our second and third largest cities is an absolute disgrace, especially when considering what poor condition the existing route is.

I don't live near the area and would probably have to travel the N20 once a decade, but have no objections to this being full motorway. Just in case you think I have a vested interest.

As for other modes of transport - let the users of those modes pony up for what they cost. Almost every train and bus route in this country is subsidised to keep going, cause they're shyte and people don't really want to use them. They're also hopeless for bringing goods, tools and equipment.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118634909#Comment_118634909

I'm not against the M20 whatsoever, so you don't need to take issue with that.

I'm saying that justifying it by saying "motorists pay for so much" is not a good way to go. Motor related revenues are around 6.2bn. Emissions fines are something like 0.5bn, the roads budget is around 2.5-3bn, and then you add in cost of deaths, health related costs related to traffic, emissions, noise, education, etc. Cost justifications aren't a good route forward, to justify the M20.

M20 has plenty justification without needing to rely on costs. Talk about deaths, cost to the economy, costs to health by way of traffic hazard etc. These all are good justifications for an M20 but costs to end users aren't a good sell. Motoring is still by far the preferred transport mode in the country. Costs are not a deterrent right now.

Sam Russell

Mod: Keep the 'hard pressed motorist' for the motor forum. This is for discussion of the road to be built from Cork to Limerick, or, alternatively, the road from Limerick to Cork - take your choice.

Off topic posts will be deleted.

hans aus dtschl

Has there been any discussion on tolls? With proposed upcoming congestion charges, would the congestion charge negate the need for a Southern toll? Or would two charges apply? Possibly nobody knows this yet....

Sam Russell

I think tolls are off the agenda for all future motorways - they are politically unpopular.

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118654683#Comment_118654683

Demand management is the next big thing the Department will be implementing with congestion charges planned for Dublin & Cork. Some form of user charging is going to be considered for projects like this, even though it may be unpopular.

Sam Russell

The whole reason for tolls on motorways/bridges was because the funding model chosen was the PPP which meant the cost of the road/bridge would be paid for through tolls which would be linked to the Consumer Price Index. This was based on a fallacy that the cost of the road was related to the CPI but of course it is not. The major cost is interest on the finance - running cost (related to CPI) would be minor. The whole structure of PPP contracts meant the Private part took the profits while the Public part took the risks - some Partnership. [I think PPP should be interpreted as Public funds into Private Pockets.]

The idea of demand management was the reverse of trying to reduce traffic. The Gov made it basically difficult to impossible to avoid the toll by making the old road slower by reducing the speed limit, by putting up direction signs that favour the toll road and by removing the signs that directed one to the old route. The Gov had to compensate the private funder if traffic was below the minimum contracted level - a point missed by the public. The M3, the Limerick Tunnel and the Waterford bridge all suffered from this.

Limerick74

Don’t disagree with any of your comments above and PPPs ultimately cost the state more over the long term.

User charging / Demand management does not necessarily equate to PPP contracts for future road projects. There won’t be any toll plazas and the M50 shows how the state can charge users directly.

Pete_Cavan

Tolls are not intrinsically linked to PPPs. A toll is merely a way of getting users to directly to contribute to covering the cost of a road, that can be done regardless of the contractual set up for building the road. I wouldn't be surprised to see tolls being used to replace some of the revenue lost from taxes on petrol/diesel going forward.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118654683#Comment_118654683

I be flabbergasted if there is no tools on the route. I expect it to be tolled between Mallow and Blarney and maybe between Croom and Limerick. It will be an electronic system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657706#Comment_118657706

I know all the old roads from Portlaois to Borris-n-Ossary I still pay the toll every time I travel that road. It's the same with Limerick Tunnel I seldom go through the city if going out the Clare side. The tunnel has taken 30 minutes plus traveling time off many people journey.

If you were trying to get from Tipperary to Clare it used to take an hour to go through the city

Sam Russell

The tolls will remain on anywhere they are currently until the contract times out - typically 30 years. The East Link is now controlled by DCC and they have chosen to continue it, despite it causing huge congestion, both on the bridge, and on the SB bridge by people going that way and so avoiding the toll.

The toll on the Port Tunnel is actually a traffic controlling measure, designed to take HGV traffic away from the city centre, and prevent cars clogging it at busy times.

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118657706#Comment_118657706

The only correction I'd make to that - only the M3 and the Limerick Bypass had the minimum traffic clause - below which the government has to pay the toll operators compensation of sorts. None of the other tolls have that.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662238#Comment_118662238

And they were bough in because of inordinate profits on the M50 tolls as well as projected profit on the Limer and Cork motorways. It was decided to limit the potential profitability of these schemes by reducing the number of years the licience to collect tolls by if certain traffic levels were achieved. In return operator's wanted a guarantees regarding minimum income

FreedomOfSpeechAndChoice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662275#Comment_118662275

Huh?

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662275#Comment_118662275

IIRC they were brought in because the contractors wouldn't build the toll roads without those guarantees. And, AFAIR, it's worked out well on the M3 route, as the traffic levels (pre-pandemic and presumably again now) went above the guaranteed level, meaning the government doesn't have to pay anything.

marno21

Tender out for traffic surveys.

This data was already collected in 2017 and 2020 so it'll be interesting to see what this is for. Ideally for junction strategy along the preferred route

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/209107/1/0

pajoguy

Not long to go now before the big reveal

Limerick74

Announcement on 30th March according to council website https://www.limerick.ie/council/newsroom/public-notices/n-m20-cork-limerick-project-public-display-preferred-transport

Kermit.de.frog

Be prepared to end up with something half assed after interference from Ryan who wants us back in the 70's and 80's building piece meal small "bypasses" instead of the motorway infrastructure other European countries have taken for granted for decades between regional cities.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784252#Comment_118784252

Seriously, why do we have to put up with this agenda driven nonsense here? It's not accepted in other parts of the site.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784295#Comment_118784295

How is it "agenda driven"? I'm entitled to my opinion just as you are.

Cork and Limerick should have a motorway between them like everywhere else on the continent.

Please share your own opinion if you have one.

Sure, I could could throw the same nonsense at you and claim all your opinions are "agenda driven", whatever that means.

This is a discussion forum. You are going to see all sorts of opinions on any topic.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784313#Comment_118784313

Your first post was just bitching and moaning about Ryan.

You then stated your opinion that Cork and Limerick should have a motorway between them (and not "everywhere else" has one). If that isn't the selected option, then voice your opinion that you don't agree but that means nothing anyway as we have a well developed process for deciding these things. Attacking Ryan before the preferred option has been announced is just agenda driven opportunism.

Sam Russell

Mod: Cut the sniping.

Aontachtoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784295#Comment_118784295

Hear, hear. The agenda posting on this board is excessive. It seems every other post in the M6 thread is from anti-road or anti-car agenda-posters talking about public transport and cycling rather than the bypass.

I think Ryan is a fair target for criticism. He is the Minister for Transport, with chief responsibility for delivering infrastructure improvements in this country, but has an open, proud bias against new road development of almost any kind. The man is entitled to his opinion, as are the members of the party he leads, but he is not entitled to immunity from criticism if the long-promised M20 suddenly turns into the "Buttevant and Charleville bypasses and shure maybe a bit of widening by Ballybeg" on his watch. His attempts to create a regulatory environment that opposes investment in key national road infrastructure is reason enough for criticism by itself.

Hopefully we will all be pleasantly surprised with what we see in two weeks.

marno21

Eamon Ryan has repeatedly made it clear that he does not favour the M20 project. He instead wants a series of small bypasses, despite this being the less preferred option for road improvement in Ireland nowadays given the poor outcomes we’ve had with this strategy in the past.

In saying that, it’s best to reserve judgement on this particular project until the preferred route is published. It’s a Government priority and given the disquiet about roads schemes recently from FF/FG it would be hard to imagine the motorway getting canned in favour of much lesser bypasses.