M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784438#Comment_118784438

"The long-promised M20" does not exist anymore, we have the N/M20 project. Road types are not determined in advance anymore, they are selected based on TII guidelines which pre-date Eamon Ryan as MfT. We haven't even seen the preferred option and we are already getting "Ryan who wants us back in the 70's and 80's". Criticismmay be warranted but why the need to create the false dichotomy that it is either full motorway or "a bit of widening" being used to justify it?

Aontachtoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784501#Comment_118784501

Minister Ryan explicitly wants this country to return to building piecemeal bypasses. He has been very clear about this. He said in October 2021 that his preferred solution for the N20 corridor was to build bypasses for Mallow, Charleville, and Buttevant only, and then to spend the rest of the funding elsewhere.

I think you may be reading a dichotomy in my comment where there is none. I would be happy with a continuous dual carriageway from Blackpool to Patrickswell, as long as all junctions are grade-separated and the speed limit is 120 km/h. There doesn't necessarily have to be motorway restrictions.

Kermit.de.frog

Why wouldn't it be full motorway? Are people in Cork and Limerick willing to accept second rate by a minister from South Dublin?

I don't think they are. It also makes a nonsense of the rebalancing agenda when there are blue lines only from Dublin on a map.

I'm willing to hold fire until we see but I'm not confident.

As an aside I can't think of a more ineffective transport minister than Eamon Ryan. Look at the mess he wanted to contribute to the Metro fiasco asking for reappraisals and extensions that would take the timeline out to oblivion.

He hasn't done anything in transport I can think of.

If another poster would like to list achievements, feel free.

Like I say I'll hold fire but I strongly suspect we are about to see an extension of this to the M20 and that's based on his own comments.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784662#Comment_118784662

The Minister doesn't design roads, that's TII's job.

Aontachtoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784796#Comment_118784796

Yes, I think most of us know that the minister doesn't actually draw up the plans for major infrastructure projects all by himself.

Are you suggesting that TII operates with complete independence in all respects from the Minister for Transport and the government as a whole?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785156#Comment_118785156

There is a defined methodology which TII use when determining the route and type(s) of a new road. The Minister and the government as a whole have limited influence and even in that, it's worth remembering that Hildegarde Naughton is Minister of State with responsibility for Road Transport and the Green Party make up a small part of the government as a whole.

KrisW1001

I don’t believe that Ryan proposed small bypasses specifically for the N20 corridor. I remember two statements by Ryan about roads spending: one expressing concern that the Cork end of M20 would end up increasing the city’s commuter-traffic problem in the long term, and a separate comment that road funding should, as a general principle, be concentrated on smaller-scale bypasses of bottleneck towns and safety blackspots.

I think a lot of people have conflated those two points into an incorrect position.

Opposing the N20 upgrade is a bad move, politically, given the appalling safety record of the current road. That doesn’t mean there aren’t some things to be concerned with about the project - I actually agree that the northern approach to Cork city could end up becoming yet another wide traffic-jam like N25/N40/M8 if the junction placement is not done right, and by “right”, I mean in a way that treats the motorway as a long-distance inter-urban route, not a commuter corridor for Cork.

I’ll wait and see before passing judgement, but I believe that Eamon Ryan has far less influence over the construction of roads than you all give him credit for. The Department of Finance, not Transport, is the most deadly to road-building, and the biggest threat to an M20 will be cost.

Limerick74

Article in the Examiner on the transport solution announcement https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40828742.html

Aontachtoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785509#Comment_118785509

In this article from last October, he is quoted as saying that he is "very much in favour of introducing by-passes on towns such as Mallow, Charleville and Buttevant on the N20 as a first step in an upgrade as has successfully happened at Adare on the N21 and as is happening in Macroom on the N22."

To be honest, I am less concerned about Eamon Ryan directly derailing the M20 than I am about him and his fellow travellers changing the rules to make future road investment in this country almost impossible. Infrastructure construction is already extremely difficult in Ireland (especially when you compare how long it took to bring a project from start to finish in even the late 00s to how long it takes these days), and the Greens have used their power in government to try to make it even harder, whether by introducing an endless new stream of regulatory hurdles for planners to jump over, or making it so easy for objectors to delay projects for years that it becomes a fool's game to push ahead with one.

But I accept that's not on topic. Let's wait and see what has survived these stages of the planning process.

FreedomOfSpeechAndChoice

Sick of Eamon Ryan. Sooner he's out on his well funded ear, the better.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786572#Comment_118786572

Can you give examples of the Green Party "introducing an endless new stream of regulatory hurdles for planners to jump over, or making it so easy for objectors to delay projects for years"?

KrisW1001

The biggest issue for road projects is an underfunded planning and judicial review system. It should not take years for a project with funding in place to go from final design to start-of-construction, but it does. Some of that delay may be beneficial for governments, as it allows control of budgets, but overall nobody benefits.

@Aontachtoir - in the quote you gave, you’ll note he says “as a first step in the upgrade” not “instead”; this is my point. I do somewhat agree with his point, albeit from another point of view, - the cost and scale of M8 is a major barrier to getting it through planning, and meanwhile people are injured or killed on the existing road. So, why not build more limited-cost schemes: something like the N8 Cashel bypass that was absorbed into M8 directly, or the N8 Mitchelstown bypass that provided initial relief to the town, and still remained of benefit after M8 passed on the other side. I still prefer the single scheme, but if that “big-bang” is creating difficulties, then achieve the aim slowly. Had we done this from the mid 2000s, most of the route would now be improved.

Describing N22 Macroom as a town bypass is an interesting sleight of hand from someone who’s consistently portrayed as anti-road. Only a quarter of that scheme actually provides the bypass of Macroom - the project is pretty much like M20 in its scope, in that it removes a long, dangerous stretch of the national road network and replaces it with a much higher capacity road.

Chris_5339762

Ryan is a disgrace, yes, but it is Leo that is the biggest disgrace - I like the man as a politician and a leader but the biggest mistake he's made was cancelling the M20 years ago.

That said, you look back to Transport21 and the M20 should have been included in the original package that they called the Interurbans and that had to be completed by end-2010, ie the M1/6/7/8/9.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118795481#Comment_118795481

So "The whole lot should have been built years ago" posted in the M20 thread two weeks before the announcement of the preferred option for the N/M20 project didn't relate to the M20, right.

FreedomOfSpeechAndChoice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118795998#Comment_118795998

They were two sentences, fella.

I take it you can count?

If not, maybe you should consider a career in accounting.

I hear Roadbridge are looking for keyboard warriors of your caliber.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we keep on topic - the M20.

Slagging off Ministers generally does not help anything.

Posts deleted.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785216#Comment_118785216

Aontachtoir asked you a simple question "Are you suggesting that TII operates with complete independence in all respects from the Minister for Transport and the government as a whole?"

Your response above appears to suggest that TII operates independently. This is contradicted by Jari Howard's statement (7th September 2021) announcing the six month delay in publication of the outcome of Phase 2, which sounds like direct political interference.

"In anticipation of policy updates on sustainable transport infrastructure, the project team have incorporated these changes into the appraisal process for the identification of the preferred option. These changes have been incorporated to avoid potential future delays in the development of the project. As a result, the preferred option for the N/M20 Cork to Limerick Project will be announced as part of a public display during Q1 2022."

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606600#Comment_118606600

Apologies, I was out of the country and missed your question. (This is a bit off topic to the M20, but is two thirds of the options being considered under the N/M20 Project)

Significant improvements to the existing Cork-Limerick rail connection could be delivered in a fraction of the time taken to provide a new route, and at a fraction of the cost. The greatest improvement in travel time between Cork and Limerick would be delivered by the use of dedicated train-sets, eliminating the often lengthy delay at Limerick Junction. Other easily delivered improvements include track and signalling improvements in Limerick Junction, additional passing loop/s between Limerick Junction and Limerick, double tracking between Limerick Junction and Limerick. All of this can be achieved by CIE/IIR alone, if the budget is made available and it eliminates external factors such as significant land acquisition. All of the above would deliver a significant improvement at minimum cost and in the shortest possible time.

Contrast this with a new direct rail link between Charleville and Limerick. The two most likely routes Charleville to Patrickswell and then via the defunct Foynes line to Limerick or Charleville to Ballysimon and then via the Waterford line to Limerick. Both will involve significant land acquisition which will likely to be bogged down in the planning and legal process, will take at least a decade to complete, serves no intermediate points and offers a marginal improvement in travel time at enormous cost. The incremental benefit of this option is impossible to justify.

There is a huge difference in the magnitude of the cost of these two options. If unlimited funds were available, then the additional cost of the direct route would provide far more benefit if spent in the greater Dublin area, and if it had to be spent in Munster for parochial reasons, then it should be spent on improving the Cork-Limerick Junction line where it would benefit not just Cork-Limerick passengers but also the far greater number of Cork (and Kerry)-Dublin travellers.

Whatever else comes on the 30th March I truly hope that the idea of a direct Charleville to Limerick rail link is dropped.

Chris_5339762

Personally I hope we get the M20 (or a Type 1 dual carriageway N20 that can be reclassifying on the QT later), but ALSO Cork to Limerick rail improvements at Limerick Junction. Why can't we have both.

That said, I don't know how this is going to go. The politicians will know that a Green Party pushed local bypass N20 will cause riots.

Hibernicis

There are three options which moved forward from phase 1 to phase 2 (the current phase). These are

• A road option (Scenario D) which broadly follows the N20 corridor, road type and route unspecified
• A rail option (Scenario RS1) using the existing Cork-Limerick path with dedicate rollingstock (i.e. no requirement to change trains)
• A rail option (Scenario RS2) using the existing Cork-Charleville path and a new line between Charleville and Limerick

Phase 2 “will lead to the identification of the best performing option or combination of options, which will be taken forward as the preferred option.” So there is every likelihood that the next phases will involve both Road and Rail improvements. That could mean a motorway from Cork to Limerick and a improved rail service using the current Cork-Limerick path. My fear is that the road option may be gutted (and reduced to a few bypasses) to allow a trophy Rail Project which will be little more than a white elephant.

hans aus dtschl

I don't see how a road project can be gutted if I'm honest. If you're doing it piecemeal then what would you do? Cork-Mallow needs the upgrade. Mallow-Buttevant is low quality also, and Charleville needs a bypass. Altogether all you'd probably leave out is a small stretch near Croom and a small stretch near Blarney. The cost savings just wouldn't be significant.

Sorry, all IMO of course.

marno21

If I were to predict the outcome I’d say a T1DC (either planned as motorway or reclassified later) for the entire length of the scheme, coupled with double tracking of LJ-Limerick and plans for radically improved service. Possibly even a greenway between Charleville and Patrickswell.

The blowback against cancelling road projects in the South East and Westmeath would be tiny compared to the blowback of gutting this.

pigtown

That seems most likely marno. The Limerick Junction line is being double tracked anyway so I'd imagine it'll be part of the solution.

hans aus dtschl

That's where my head is too.

I suspect they might make a bit of noise about re-working old N20 alignments as quiet cycle route corridors where possible also. This trick was missed when the M8 was done, and some of the high-speed rat-running that goes on is ridiculous. I've lost count of the amount of crashes I've seen on the R639 for instance.

marno21

The Limerick Junction upgrade will be a nice cheap easy win too for intercity routes to Dublin and the South East if they want to spend money on it. Perhaps even a suburban station in Ballysimon linking in with Castletroy/Raheen bus routes and maybe a P&R.

Of course, the positive improvements for bus services that the M20 will bring are massive too. Just look at the M7/M8 bus routes. Big flexibility for last mile routing at either end too. Bus improvements will not be achieved with a cheap roundabout ridden mess

pigtown

Should an upgrade of M20 junction 1 be included in the project? If even for bus only access. That could be a big boost for intercity bus routes

Hibernicis

A few comments in response to the above.

I'd say that most users of the current N20 would be more than happy if the outcome is a continuous Type 1 DC from Blarney to Patrickswell. I live in hope of this but I fear the worst.

Much of the heavy lifting at Limerick Junction was done as part of the last upgrade, And while there is some further work to be done, the priority is the allocation of dedicated train-sets allowing an end to end "no change of train" service between Cork and Limerick. This, together with the existing "Cork Line Level Crossings Project" and the "Cork Line Rehabilitation Project" could/should shave anything up to 15-20 mins off the existing rail journey time.

There are no current plans that I am aware of to Double Track the Limerick- Limerick Junction line. It has ben mentioned on numerous occasions, but nothing has been done to move it forward. And while it is a lot more straightforward and cost effective than constructing a new rail line from Charleville to Limerick, it would still probably take 5-7 years from inception to delivery at the rate the NTA/CIE/IIR move. And it is debatable as to whether it would deliver any significant benefit in the short term as it is mainly a capacity enhancement.

A rail station in Ballysimon is very unlikely, however desirable it might appear. The N/M20 Rail Option RS2 "could connect into the existing Limerick to Dublin line outside the Limerick metropolitan area to utilise the existing line into Limerick station. The new service would have intermediate stops at Mallow and Charleville." And, for very good reason, IIR has a policy of not allowing long distance rail services to act as commuter services as they reach their destination (e.g. the Cork Dublin rail service bypasses all stations beyond Portlaoise). There has been mention (by E.Ryan so treat with scepticism/derision) of a C shaped commuter rail project for Limerick using the existing Limerick-Ennis line and the defunct Limerick-Foynes line however this is totally separate.

Roll on March 30th.

Heartbreak Hank

Please nobody lose their minds at this but would there not be merit in having the main intercity for the south running Dublin - Limerick - Cork? That would obviously need the Charleville Limerick section; a major rethink in Limerick for a through station; and major works on the Nenagh section. The upside would be the interconnection between the three cities and making more use of a single line and providing more service to more people.

The downside (other than cost/ disruption of the works) would be downgrading of services to Limerick Jct and Thurlas and the longer distance to travel for Cork (would be a reduced journey length to Limerick from Dublin or Cork though)

***puts on flak jacket and helmet***

Hibernicis

Are you Eamon Ryan in disguise.........

It might make sense if you were planning a TGV type service and starting from a clean sheet. It is unrealistic in the context of the way we plan and manage Infrastructure in this country.

Cookiemunster

There are no current plans that I am aware of to Double Track the Limerick- Limerick Junction line.

@Hibernicis It's literally part of the LSMATS plan.