M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

BestWestern

The quality of Irish Motorway services is fantastic in Comparison to the UK or Germany.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123668825#Comment_123668825

Probably not for this thread but aren't we doing away with the non serviced rest areas on our motorways.

I always thought we needed more of what they have in France

Hailtothethief

As someone who has travelled on French, German, Belgian, Dutch, Danish, Spanish and Italian motorways, our online services are shite. I'm not talking about the private ones built at junction, I'm talking about the online ones.

When travelling in Spain, I usually look for the massive petrol station sign to gauge the distance off the motorway. Sometimes you can find the distance on a small sign also. If it's too far or I can't see how far away it is, I'm not chancing it. I'll go to the next one.

I have found it close to impossible to get parking on them on a Sunday as trucks are generally not allowed drive on a Sunday (food trucks plus a few other special categories excepted)

I will admit though that the Belgian and Luxembourg motorways are nothing to write home about!

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123670091#Comment_123670091

Welcome to the thread, Patrick McDonagh

BestWestern

Seriously, the motorway services in Ireland are far better than in most European countries. However, their non commercial rest areas are much better. (I've driven in DK, DE, CZ, AT, CH, IT, ES, PT, BE, FR, LU, NL)

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123672614#Comment_123672614

It's almost like the state are driving (pardon the pun) to commercial rest stops than providing and maintaining stops themselves

over-30s-soccer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123672614#Comment_123672614

Spanish motorways are pretty decent now. Their trains are unreal.

Exiled Rebel

it'll be interesting to see what if any CPO's will be interested in bidding for these EV charging hubs.

you'd imagine the majority of ev drivers parking up at these places for the day (while car sharing or jumping on the PnR BUS) will have a home charger and have no need for the on-site ev charging facilities. similarly the cork to limerick traffic will hardly need it given the range ev's do today never mind the range cars will have in the 2030's when this road is built - as things stand we're not far off an 800km range EV.

EDIT: I know there's other places beyond cork and limerick but if you're driving from donegal to cork via limerick then you're hardly going to stop along the m20 when you're within touching distance of your destination.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123675974#Comment_123675974

These will be DC fast chargers. As you say, there's no way someone will park all day at one, as the overstay fees are punitive, and they're more expensive than home charging by a good multiple, so people who charge at home won't use them either.

Passing traffic will use them though… it's towards the end of your journey that you are more likely to need a recharge. But don't assume that everyone driving south on the Limerick-Cork motorway has a final destination in Cork city. Someone driving to West Cork would be glad of the handy opportunity to recharge just before Cork, as there aren't many fast chargers west of the city.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123675974#Comment_123675974

The charging stations are more than likely going to be ESB fast chargers. It's highly unlikely that they'll be 7kW/22kW chargers. The idea is a quick stop to top up your battery, not leaving your car charging all day.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123668825#Comment_123668825

I'd say wait for the motorway to be built and don't be getting caught up in what services will be available just yet, there's nothing to stop a service area being built after the motorway. Remember most of our motorways were built without services and had the service areas added afterwards

You say "all but one" of them will be rest stops, am I to take that one will be a full fledged service area? The proposed motorway will be ~85-90km so one J14 or plaza style stop 40-50km from Limerick and Cork would be plenty in fairness

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676303#Comment_123676303

Re “all but one”: yes, my understanding is that the freight hub will have (engine) fuel and additional welfare services. Every other area is going to be a small carpark, a couple of chargers, toilets, and if you’re lucky a semi-permanent pitch that could be rented out to someone with a food/coffee truck. Basically, like the French “Aire de repos” (rest area).

… and to be honest, that’s all that’s needed. Ireland just isn’t big enough in any direction to need overnight accommodation directly on the motorway network. The majority of car drivers who arrive into the country late at night will never be so far from their destination that they’d lose a whole night’s sleep by driving there straight away.

But speaking of “sleep”, if they add some services for camper-vans, these would be a valuable additional tourist resource. Ireland has plenty of places where you can park up a camper van, but not so many where you can fill up on water, recharge batteries, or dispose of waste.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676526#Comment_123676526

All very true, and probably not much need for more than one full motorway service area on that route. Truckers do sleep in their cabs in these places though I don't see a need for a hotel at a MSS similar to the UK and the continent.

Not sure if campsites at the side of the road would sell, usually people want to be near a town or a beach, or both, when pitching tents or caravans etc.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676551#Comment_123676551

They're not campsites, they're van parking areas... on the continent most explicitly forbid you from camping. They are more for servicing the van itself (topping up drinking water, disposal of the chemical toilet, etc) while taking a break on a longer journey.

Here, those facilities, where available, tend to be on paid camping sites, and those sites are expensive because they're in popular scenic areas.

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676526#Comment_123676526

From what is published I do not believe the Mallow Freight Hub will have diesel pumps and the focus will be high capacity EV charging and rest for drivers.

Exiled Rebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676199#Comment_123676199

I can't see the need for more than one EV fast charging hub along the route. Surely where the park and rides etc are the installation of AC chargers would be better use of resources.

By all means have one or two DC fast chargers installed in these locations but any more wouldn't make sense to me.

Hailtothethief

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676551#Comment_123676551

There's a difference on the continent between parking and camping.

Camping is where items are placed outside the vehicle (chairs, tables, BBQ, etc) and/or pitching a tent. Disconnecting a caravan from the tow car is also considered camping.

Parking is where everything is inside the vehicle.

Most people in Ireland (and I'm including motorhome/caravan users) don't understand the difference.

Parking overnight and sleeping in the vehicle (truck, motorhome, etc) in DESIGNATED AREAS is quite common. Sleeping in the vehicle in a non-designated area will get you moved on.

Parking is welcome.

Hailtothethief

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123676526#Comment_123676526

Ireland has plenty of places where you can park a campervan? Don't make me laugh!

We have bugger all official areas outside of campsites! Cork is well served by comparison (Cobh, Midleton, Fermoy, Bantry X2, Kealkil, Eyeries). Kerry has one, Sneem. Waterford had Dungarvan. Wexford had Bannow Bay and Fethard. Compare that to the 3800 places listed for Germany in the Bord Atlas book.....

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123694928#Comment_123694928

We're not disagreeing. I said there were plenty of places to park up, meaning to stop by the roadside somewhere quiet. There are very few official overnight car parks that accomodate campers.

CrabRevolution

Due to a certain cohort of Irish society, it has long been (unstated) policy to prevent there being places for caravans and campervans to set up.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123686671#Comment_123686671

Noticed on the latest ZEVI update that there are 2 rapid charge locations going in Charleville (Park hotel and nearby applegreen) and there are already 2 in the town (ESB at inver and easygo at Lidl) All bar one of these are by the northern entrance to the town so if they put the junction nearby there's a lot of electric car charging infrastructure pretty close by

KrisW1001

AC EV charging is for long-term parking (stops of 2h or more), as most new EVs are incapable of charging on AC faster than 11kW, regardless of what the charger can deliver (AC charging can deliver 35 kW). The industry decided a few years ago that AC is used for home charging, and DC is for fast charging at service areas.

The reason to have chargers at every journey is twofold. First, it needs less space, and second it avoids creating small areas of high power demand on the grid. From a provisioning point of view, it’s pretty easy to put four 100 Watt chargers each onto three sites, but not so easy to put in twelve on one site.

Exiled Rebel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123699100#Comment_123699100

"AC EV charging is for long-term parking (stops of 2h or more)"

Which is why I suggested they should located at the PnR and not bother installing power hungry DC chargers.

Hailtothethief

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123696681#Comment_123696681

True. Quite true.

However, I've seen how other countries manage it. I've seen a tow truck arrive in to a stellplatz in Germany to tow out a camper that was parked in the wrong place by members of that cohort.....

Oh how I enjoyed my popcorn that day....

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123699602#Comment_123699602

Apologies, I misread your post.

I agree. And as it’s long-stay parking, even the public 22 kW AC stations are excessive - especially as almost no cars can charge at over 11 kW on AC these days. Multiple Single-phase 7 kW stations, fed from a common 50 kVA supply would be sufficient for a P+R, and these are pretty cheap to install (plus the charger farm can be augmented by solar panels to reduce running costs of the site). At worst case, 1.6 kW, you get between 60 and 100 km of range after eight hours, depending on how efficient your car is, but that’s probably more than most people will have used to get there.

(Dublin Airport really should look into doing something like this - the average car there is parked up for 2-3 days in the Short Term parks, and that's plenty of time to fully charge anything)

Exiled Rebel

Yup. If you think about it most of those that would use the PnR facilities (e.g. Mallow) would be travelling to Cork or Limerick.

Let's say you park the car, plug it in (plug & charge will be ubiquitous long before then), wait for a bus, travel to Cork, do your thing (work, shopping, socialising etc) and then travel back, you could easily be 5-10 hours depending on what you're doing in the city. The AC charger could be limited to say 3kW (like it is in my workplace) then that's between 75km and 150km trickling away into the car. Seeing as the average petrol/diesel driver does less than 50km per day then a 3kW charge rate should be sufficient for the majority and those it does not suit could be catered to by the one or two DC fast chargers (let's say 150kW for the craic).

This sort of setup would have significantly lower capital/operational costs, many more ports could be installed and as I said earlier would be a better use of resources especially when you consider CPOs are currently struggling to get power for their existing sites.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123702599#Comment_123702599

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123699934#Comment_123699934

You are not going to use a P&R in Mallow to access Cork and definitely not Limerick. P&R's need to be much nearer the city. It also makes no sense having cars connected to a charge supply for 3++ hours. It would mean at sites like these multiple charging points are needed unless there is a parking valet system to charge and remark card. Sane at any airport. You cannot have infrastructure tied up for multiple days. It unlikely to make economic sense to operate a valet system at them.either especially with Dublin heading for 24 hours flights

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123702761#Comment_123702761

Okay, getting off topic, but there are solutions being developed for this use case. Not just airports, but it’s of interest in countries with large numbers of apartments with resident parking facilities below (so not Ireland, obviously). Nothing is in production yet, but servicing large numbers of EVs in long term parking is something that is definitely being looked at. The “chargers” you attach to become quite simple, not much more than a glorified electrical socket, with an RCD and relay and connection back to a central controller: the control of charging (and billing) is handled by that common computer system. Each station would be below 7 kW maximum, single phase, so the cabling requirements to each are no more onerous than putting in electric heaters or a shower. The expensive bit is the controller, which handles the power switching to each station, but the cost of that is shared out. A €200 per bay cost is not unreasonable (compare with single-phase standalone domestic chargers are €750 for the non-captive cable type), and that makes it something parking operators will definitely go for.

Limerick74

Another tragedy on the N20 this morning

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/breaking-news/1870522/breaking-man-40s-dies-and-woman-30s-seriously-injured-in-limerick-collision.html

Chris_5339762

Horrendous closing speeds of 200kmh and the extremely wide road gives you an impression the oncoming car is miles away. Terrible. At least when the M20 comes all of this should stop.

Pandemonium in the area this morning as traffic is being redirected through Croom.