M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Sam Russell

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is a couple complicating issues. Government ability to fund projects are limited and the NBP and the NCH will swallow funding over the next few years. As well there is strong lobbying for rail/underground transport system for Dublin which will be a very expensive project as well.

The last two motorways build Ennis-Tuam (Limerick-Galway)and Waterford to Dublin were over specified projects. Green concerns think we should all be on bike's or trains. They fail to see the demand side of this project and the fact it will act a counterbalance to Dublin population wise and a draw for industry to locate in the region. It also opens up the whole SW region. However there are still many who consider rail as an option for all transport in Ireland.

There is no excuse for this project to be canned when it was ready. The fact that Gort - Tuam went ahead is an indictment on parish pump politics - who was Taoseach at the time, and who held the purse strings?

Cork Trucker

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is no excuse for this project to be canned when it was ready. The fact that Gort - Tuam went ahead is an indictment on parish pump politics - who was Taoseach at the time, and who held the purse strings?

The parish pump politics is working terribly in Cork. Since 2016 Martin could have pulled down Kenny/Then Varadkar's governments but didn't, Coveney is the deputy head of the government and Martin the leader of the "opposition" and between those 2 they couldn't sort anything on road infrastructure. Before anyone mentions the Macroom Bypass, nearly 40 years in the waiting on that one irrespective of what tripe Michael Creed spouts.

Dunkettle Interchange pushed back, M28 legal proceedings, NRR will it ever happen? Macroom to Ovens another generation away at best, M71 god only knows,M25 same, Midleton to Youghal bypass probably utter fantasy, M20 itself is still on shaky ground due to the "Build it via Mitchelstown" brigade.

Even if Martin is Taoiseach after the next election i don't see it happening during that term of government. As per my previous post, Brexit, Children's hospital (another 50 million) National Broadband scheme and the possibility of another recession coming down the tracks for this country if things go pear shaped in Europe are all reasons why this isn't going to begin at least in the next 10 years.

This thread will be still here pending in another 10/11 years with probably the likes of Eamon Ryan as Taoiseach and then we'll be demolishing roads and planting trees and living in la la land :rolleyes:

Reputable Rog

alias no.9 wrote: »

We in Ireland have a long history of doing infrastructure on a half assed 'lower cost' basis which inevitably leads to the whole thing needing to be significantly upgraded at a later date.

This is simply the latest installment in that process mixed in with a liberal smattering of common or garden NIMBY.

Very well put, the N40 South Ring is a prime example. Built initially by direct labour. A serious amount of retrofitting has been done in the last 12 years. The ancillary road network feeding off it is like something you’d see in the Ballyhouras.

Bass Reeves

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is no excuse for this project to be canned when it was ready. The fact that Gort - Tuam went ahead is an indictment on parish pump politics - who was Taoseach at the time, and who held the purse strings?

Dublin -Waterford M( was real parish pump politics.Martin Cullen was minister at the time. It was not tolled either. It was completed at the same time as the M7&M8. A new bridge was put in place at the same time and this was not tolled either. The M18 would not have been build but all contracts were signed by the time the recession hit. It construction was delayed. The M20 was in the advanced planning stage at the time and was pulled as the recession hit all finances

AugustusMinimus

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Dublin -Waterford M( was real parish pump politics.Martin Cullen was minister at the time. It was not tolled either. It was completed at the same time as the M7&M8. A new bridge was put in place at the same time and this was not tolled either. The M18 would not have been build but all contracts were signed by the time the recession hit. It construction was delayed. The M20 was in the advanced planning stage at the time and was pulled as the recession hit all finances

What do you mean there was a bridge built which wasn’t tolled. There is a toll on the Waterford bypass. If some people had their way Waterford would be left die.

Bass Reeves

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What do you mean there was a bridge built which wasn’t tolled. There is a toll on the Waterford bypass. If some people had their way Waterford would be left die.

I am sorry if I am incorrect about the bridge but Cullen's input stopped the tolling of the Motorway.

alias no.9

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What do you mean there was a bridge built which wasn’t tolled. There is a toll on the Waterford bypass. If some people had their way Waterford would be left die.

It's the epitome of parish pump, Cullen looked after Waterford city, the good citizens of Waterford city face no toll en route to Dublin but to hell with the rest of the county, they can suck it up.

Cork Trucker

I’ve just come back in along the N20, what I didn’t realise before now is give or take a few hundred metres the Waterloo turnoff is the new city/county border with the actual exit on the county side, many of the plastic bollards are on the city side, so if they try and shut the turn off again it’ll be fun

Isambard

that slipped by me unnoticed too

Reputable Rog

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I’ve just come back in along the N20, what I didn’t realise before now is five of take a few hundred metres the Waterloo turnoff is the new city/county border with the actual exit on the county side, many of the plastic bollards are on the city side, so if they try and shut the turn off again it’ll be fun

I was only thinking about that the other day when the County said they were considering closing it. Expect an almighty row, especially with the City having to pay €13 million p.a in compo to the County.

Cork Trucker

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I was only thinking about that the other day when the County said they were considering closing it. Expect an almighty row, especially with the City having to pay €13 million p.a in compo to the County.

The “Welcome to Cork City” sign is erected hence how I knew. I think the actual exit itself is still under county control but no doubt the city side will also be lobbied. Between this now and the compo as you rightly mention we’ll have to get out the bags of popcorn.

Reputable Rog

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The “Welcome to Cork City” sign is erected hence how I knew. I think the actual exit itself is still under county control but no doubt the city side will also be lobbied. Between this now and the compo as you rightly mention we’ll have to get out the bags of popcorn.

Sometimes I wonder about this country.

Cork Trucker

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder about this country.

That’s about right, yes this country is a tad unusual

niloc1951

So much hullaballoo about that junction.
Why can't local traffic be fully accommodated. Why do locals have to surrender their traditional routes to and from the junction.
I know there were fatalities caused by bad driving decisions by some using the N20 but appropriate signage, proper lane demarkation and a reduced spped limit should render it relatively safe for all users.
A 200m stretch of the N20 either side of the junction with a reduced speed limit of 60km/h would add all of 10 seconds to the journey time of those passing through, which is insignificant compared to what is being imposed on the local population

Cork Trucker

niloc1951 wrote: »

So much hullaballoo about that junction.
Why can't local traffic be fully accommodated. Why do locals have to surrender their traditional routes to and from the junction.
I know there were fatalities caused by bad driving decisions by some using the N20 but appropriate signage, proper lane demarkation and a reduced spped limit should render it relatively safe for all users.
A 200m stretch of the N20 either side of the junction with a reduced speed limit of 60km/h would add all of 10 seconds to the journey time of those passing through, which is insignificant compared to what is being imposed on the local population

The junction a few hundred metres either side is now legally split between the 2 local authorities, the fact they are already at loggerheads over a few million in compo is more important to the county council than keeping this junction open it would seem, there are still vehicles performing U-turns to access the junction illegally.

Isambard

I've still not seen one vehicle do this and under what Law is it illegal? There are side turnings north and south where this could be performed safely and even on the main line it wouldn't actually be dangerous or illegal if care was taken.

As for special treatment for this junction with a speed limit, there are many worse and as bad junctions where this isn't done. There are as I've noted junctions north and south to access cross country routes which would add 10 seconds or so to the journey of those traditionalists, why would you delay the other 99.9% of drivers on an already over-loaded and dangerous road?

Cork Trucker

In relation to what law is being broken, i would have to go digging the statute books, too time consuming to do it this morning.

As for vehicles doing the U-Turn, i've seen just a solitary one myself, the below is from the echo and i don't know where th council got their stats from.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/N20-Waterloo-junction-closure-being-considered-by-Council--50492475-f3f4-45a6-950c-36caa6c9dc81-ds

Mr Barrett said they were still monitoring the area and it was highly likely over 2,000 dangerous manoeuvres had been carried out to date.

Isambard

Cork Trucker wrote: »

In relation to what law is being broken, i would have to go digging the statute books, too time consuming to do it this morning.

As for vehicles doing the U-Turn, i've seen just a solitary one myself, the below is from the echo and i don't know where th council got their stats from.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/N20-Waterloo-junction-closure-being-considered-by-Council--50492475-f3f4-45a6-950c-36caa6c9dc81-ds

wow, that's clearly nonsense.

Limerick74

Cork Trucker wrote: »

In relation to what law is being broken, i would have to go digging the statute books, too time consuming to do it this morning.

As for vehicles doing the U-Turn, i've seen just a solitary one myself, the below is from the echo and i don't know where th council got their stats from.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/N20-Waterloo-junction-closure-being-considered-by-Council--50492475-f3f4-45a6-950c-36caa6c9dc81-ds

CCTV cameras

Cork Trucker

Limerick74 wrote: »

CCTV cameras

Are there some at the junction? never actually looked if i'm honest.

Isambard

i've not seen any and if it's illegal or dangerous why have there been no prosecutions?

Reputable Rog

Limerick74 wrote: »

CCTV cameras

I don’t think there are any CCTV cameras there other than those on the traveller compound.

Cork Trucker

Isambard wrote: »

i've not seen any and if it's illegal or dangerous why have there been no prosecutions?

It would be considered a dangerous driving, which in itself is a 2 year ban and 5 points, but to prosecute it the Garda must catch you in the act, and lets face it, most do it in the knowledge that the chances of getting away with it are better than the chances of being caught. Many illegal acts carried out in this country night & day, they ain't all prosecuted.

AugustusMinimus

alias no.9 wrote: »

It's the epitome of parish pump, Cullen looked after Waterford city, the good citizens of Waterford city face no toll en route to Dublin but to hell with the rest of the county, they can suck it up.

What the hell are you on about. Out of all the cities in Ireland, Waterford must get the least public investment, by a distance. The place is a black hole long forgotten about by Dublin.

Cork Trucker

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What the hell are you on about. Out of all the cities in Ireland, Waterford must get the least public investment, by a distance. The place is a black hole long forgotten about by Dublin.

I’d say it’s a close second, Donegal tops that list.

corinthion

https://www.facebook.com/WaterlooAccessGroup/

There was cameras put there, i saw them myself after seeing the post above.

alias no.9

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What the hell are you on about. Out of all the cities in Ireland, Waterford must get the least public investment, by a distance. The place is a black hole long forgotten about by Dublin.

Maybe that's a result of myopic public representatives like Martin Cullen. I've got a lot of time for Waterford but there's so much that they could have done better for themselves over the years. The M9 was a piece of largesse secured by Cullen when he was a very influential member of cabinet. Not only is it way over spec for the traffic volumes, he even managed to deliver it as the only interurban motorway between 2 cities without a toll but left the country folk with a toll. Two tolls to Cork, two to Galway, one to Limerick but since you claimed the bridge in Waterford as one toll, you can count the tunnel in Limerick as a second even though neither are necessary to access the respective cities. Like I said, parish pump in the extreme, if you want better public representatives, elect them.

road_high

alias no.9 wrote: »

Maybe that's a result of myopic public representatives like Martin Cullen. I've got a lot of time for Waterford but there's so much that they could have done better for themselves over the years. The M9 was a piece of largesse secured by Cullen when he was a very influential member of cabinet. Not only is it way over spec for the traffic volumes, he even managed to deliver it as the only interurban motorway between 2 cities without a toll but left the country folk with a toll. Two tolls to Cork, two to Galway, one to Limerick but since you claimed the bridge in Waterford as one toll, you can count the tunnel in Limerick as a second even though neither are necessary to access the respective cities. Like I said, parish pump in the extreme, if you want better public representatives, elect them.

Do we have to keep having this same inaccurate conversation? No it's not over specced for the traffic volumes which are clearly available on the TII Stats website which have been quoted dozens of times here already.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we keep this between Cork and Limerick, not between the many parish pumps around the country.

Thank you.

niloc1951

There is no law against making a U-turn on any road, unless there is a sign prohibiting it.
Of course it must be made in a safe manner and not pose a risk to other traffic.