M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

wingfo

Does anyone think the announcement of the Adare by pass will slow down funding for the M20

Bass Reeves

wingfo wrote: »

Does anyone think the announcement of the Adare by pass will slow down funding for the M20

The Adare Bypass/ Foynes access is an EU funded project that has to be completed by 2025 I think to draw down EU funds. Government has limited funds to carry out capital projects so in a way yes.

Cookiemunster

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The Adare Bypass/ Foynes access is an EU funded project that has to be completed by 2025 I think to draw down EU funds. Government has limited funds to carry out capital projects so in a way yes.

It's a Ten-T project, which means that the EU will fund some of the cost, but only a small percentage. Most of the cost will come from government funds. Also it's unlikely to be ready before 2026.

As for the M20, it's years behind the M21 and won't need significant funding for 6 or 7 years.

Cork Trucker

This thread (started in 2008) will reach adulthood and we'll still be posting about when it might get going. Cork is highly neglected these days, and before anyone mentions the projects nearing a start date, just look at how long that took.

SeanW

Cork Trucker wrote: »

This thread (started in 2008) will reach adulthood and we'll still be posting about when it might get going. Cork is highly neglected these days, and before anyone mentions the projects nearing a start date, just look at how long that took.

It's not just Cork. The current government is doing just the absolute, balls-to-the-wall bare minimum necessary to prevent Dublin and suchlike places from collapsing under the weight of generations of extreme neglect. A bit of Luas here, some new train carriages there, maybe a Metro in 10 years time, Dart Underground not even on the agenda! And that's before one looks at the housing catastrophe that the power that be are happy to just let fester.

The problem in Cork is real, but it's a nationwide problem.

Cork Trucker

SeanW wrote: »

It's not just Cork. The current government is doing just the absolute, balls-to-the-wall bare minimum necessary to prevent Dublin and suchlike places from collapsing under the weight of generations of extreme neglect. A bit of Luas here, some new train carriages there, maybe a Metro in 10 years time, Dart Underground not even on the agenda! And that's before one looks at the housing catastrophe that the power that be are happy to just let fester.

The problem in Cork is real, but it's a nationwide problem.

Dublin is getting what it needs, outside it either is very very slowly or isn't at all. FG are making a car crash of the entire place, as bad as FF were from 97-11 they got alot more done than this lot up to 07 at least, so that's 10 years and FG are in power 9 years next March. If FG are elected back into government next summer then the M20 & NRR will never go ahead due to Brexit, another recession or both.

Isambard

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Dublin is getting what it needs, outside it either is very very slowly or isn't at all. FG are making a car crash of the entire place, as bad as FF were from 97-11 they got alot more done than this lot up to 07 at least, so that's 10 years and FG are in power 9 years next March. If FG are elected back into government next summer then the M20 & NRR will never go ahead due to Brexit, another recession or both.

i fear you're going to be proved correct.

Markcheese

Dublin is a disaster, traffic and public transport wise.. I'm much happier to be stuck on the south ring than the m50,
Yes I'd like the dunkettle done, it's out to tender, (and the N40, will probably be more stuffed because of it)
yes I'd like the carigaline Road done, blame the objectors,
Is the North ríng even on the near horizon??
I'd rather more effort was put into proper linked up public transport..

AugustusMinimus

SeanW wrote: »

It's not just Cork. The current government is doing just the absolute, balls-to-the-wall bare minimum necessary to prevent Dublin and suchlike places from collapsing under the weight of generations of extreme neglect. A bit of Luas here, some new train carriages there, maybe a Metro in 10 years time, Dart Underground not even on the agenda! And that's before one looks at the housing catastrophe that the power that be are happy to just let fester.

The problem in Cork is real, but it's a nationwide problem.

Name a single infrastructure project started in Cork by this government. Shovels aren’t yet in the ground in Macroom. Not a single major infrastructure project to benefit cork. Not one. You cannot day that about any other Irish city.

Cookiemunster

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Name a single infrastructure project started in Cork by this government. Shovels aren’t yet in the ground in Macroom. Not a single major infrastructure project to benefit cork. Not one. You cannot day that about any other Irish city.

Au contraire, but you can. Name the major infrastructure projects for Limerick, Galway or Waterford cities started by FG. The fact is that since 2010 there's been none. Galway is more screwed that Cork.

Cork Trucker

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Au contraire, but you can. Name the major infrastructure projects for Limerick, Galway or Waterford cities started by FG. The fact is that since 2010 there's been none. Galway is more screwed that Cork.

Who was in power when the M17/18 started?

marno21

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Au contraire, but you can. Name the major infrastructure projects for Limerick, Galway or Waterford cities started by FG. The fact is that since 2010 there's been none. Galway is more screwed that Cork.

M17/M18 as Cork Trucker said. N25 New Ross is very close to Waterford and provides quick access between Waterford and Wexford.

But over 9 years that’s still pathetic. FG over the last 8.5 years have taken the approach that we are akin to Botswana or similar when it comes to infrastructure. The whole “you have to spend money to make money” idea is unheard of by them. The whole country is creaking at the seams. Over the past 30 years the country has become very advanced but we still rely on yesterday’s infrastructure.

AugustusMinimus

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Au contraire, but you can. Name the major infrastructure projects for Limerick, Galway or Waterford cities started by FG. The fact is that since 2010 there's been none. Galway is more screwed that Cork.

What Cork Trucker said. Galway got the M17/M18 as well.

What has Cork got?

cgcsb

All this woe is me Cork stuff is tiresome. Almost no urban area in this country has appropriate infrastructure for 2019. Due to several reasons: we're a ruralised society, we love a bit of current spending and high level corruption

blindsider

cgcsb wrote: »

All this woe is me Cork stuff is tiresome. Almost no urban area in this country has appropriate infrastructure for 2019. Due to several reasons: we're a ruralised society, we love a bit of current spending and high level corruption

And where are you from?

Cork Trucker

blindsider wrote: »

And where are you from?

Probably Dublin :rolleyes:

Cookiemunster

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

What Cork Trucker said. Galway got the M17/M18 as well.

What has Cork got?

You said

Not a single major infrastructure project to benefit cork. Not one. You cannot day that about any other Irish city.

It's been pretty much universally agreed that the M17/18 was built too far away from Galway and didn't relieve traffic issues on the old N17 or N18 into Galway. and Galways Northern bypass is still years away. So my point still stands that none of the other cities (outside Dublin) have gotten anything under FG.

The woe is me attitude from Cork is frankly annoying to pretty much everyone not from Cork, because basically the whole country (outside Dublin) is in the same boat. And even then Dublin is screwed from a PT point of view due to massive underinvestment in PT infrastructure.

Markcheese

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Probably Dublin :rolleyes:

He's still right though Dublin or not ,

Cork Trucker

Markcheese wrote: »

He's still right though Dublin or not ,

It’s a difference of opinion.

hans aus dtschl

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The woe is me attitude from Cork is frankly annoying to pretty much everyone not from Cork, because basically the whole country (outside Dublin) is in the same boat. And even then Dublin is screwed from a PT point of view due to massive underinvestment in PT infrastructure.

Yeah but on the other hand, "basically the whole country" is a net drain on the exchequer, other than Cork and Dublin.
Cork gets lumped in with "de rest of rural culchie Ireland outside Dublin", rather than getting treated as a proper economically viable area, with the net result that we're getting left behind by the centralised agencies.

Look at the NTA, for instance. The NATIONAL transport authority just announced that it'd funding a new office with responsibility for Cycling Infrastructure. This office, according to the NTA themselves, will focus solely on Dublin. This is repeated again and again. When you talk to the NTA about Cork, they'll refer to Galway or Waterford. It's not an appropriate comparison to use. They're about as unalike as Cork and Dublin are.

People in Dublin don't hear "Cork probably needs an underground more than Dublin does, because Dublin has a Luas" or "there's no business justification for putting in XYZ sustainable transport infrastructure, while Cork doesn't have an M20". Because these arguments would be nonsense. And yet I've heard that Little Island doesn't need sustainable infrastructure because it's not as bad as Knocknacarra. So I personally think that the current level of "rural Cork" thinking by the NTA is actually a disgrace.

cgcsb

blindsider wrote: »

And where are you from?

When you've no counter argument start talking about where other posters are from instead of disagreeing with the substance of their post. A classic move.

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Yeah but on the other hand, "basically the whole country" is a net drain on the exchequer, other than Cork and Dublin.
Cork gets lumped in with "de rest of rural culchie Ireland outside Dublin", rather than getting treated as a proper economically viable area, with the net result that we're getting left behind by the centralised agencies.

Look at the NTA, for instance. The NATIONAL transport authority just announced that it'd funding a new office with responsibility for Cycling Infrastructure. This office, according to the NTA themselves, will focus solely on Dublin. This is repeated again and again. When you talk to the NTA about Cork, they'll refer to Galway or Waterford. It's not an appropriate comparison to use. They're about as unalike as Cork and Dublin are.

People in Dublin don't hear "Cork probably needs an underground more than Dublin does, because Dublin has a Luas" or "there's no business justification for putting in XYZ sustainable transport infrastructure, while Cork doesn't have an M20". Because these arguments would be nonsense. And yet I've heard that Little Island doesn't need sustainable infrastructure because it's not as bad as Knocknacarra. So I personally think that the current level of "rural Cork" thinking by the NTA is actually a disgrace.

You have a good point about the nta cycling office, it should be national and I suspect it will be in the near future. What most don't know is that a single project, the liffey cycle route and DCC's utter inability to deliver it is what created the nta cycle office.

As for the rest of your post, utter capal cac, the most expensive transport schemes in recent years are the Gort to Tuam and new ross bypass motorways both heavily overdesigned roads and both in regions that couldnt sustain such expenditure independently. The lack of PT is nationwide. Take the luas as an example. Completely over capacity within 10 years of opening due to under designing.

niloc1951

cgcsb wrote: »

You have a good point about the nta cycling office, it should be national and I suspect it will be in the near future. What most don't know is that a single project, the liffey cycle route and DCC's utter inability to deliver it is what created the nta cycle office.

As for the rest of your post, utter capal cac, the most expensive transport schemes in recent years are the Gort to Tuam and new ross bypass motorways both heavily overdesigned roads and both in regions that couldnt sustain such expenditure independently. The lack of PT is nationwide. Take the luas as an example. Completely over capacity within 10 years of opening due to under designing.

The best example of under designing must be the N40. Original design included a knecklace of four roundabout connections with the N25/N8, the N27, the R641/R649 and the N71. The NRA/TII had to go back and redo the latter three, to enble the N40 flow properly, at enormous expence while we probably won't see the N25/N8 connection sorted until 2023, with luck.
I suspect these QUANGO's only half do a job first time round so they'll get a second bit at the cherry later on, thereby prolonging their existance courtesy of us, the taxpayer.

marno21

niloc1951 wrote: »

The best example of under designing must be the N40. Original design included a knecklace of four roundabout connections with the N25/N8, the N27, the R641/R649 and the N71. The NRA/TII had to go back and redo the latter three, to enble the N40 flow properly, at enormous expence while we probably won't see the N25/N8 connection sorted until 2023, with luck.
I suspect these QUANGO's only half do a job first time round so they'll get a second bit at the cherry later on, thereby prolonging their existance courtesy of us, the taxpayer.

The N40 between the Bandon Road Roundabout and Rochestown predates the NRA. I’m not sure how much involvement they had in the Dunkettle Roundabout

It’s important to note though that the volume of traffic using the N40 would have been eye watering when the road was planned and a lot of the traffic is down to haphazard development in the meantime. I live less than 1km from the N40 and my house wasn’t even in planning when the South Ring Road was built there

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

The N40 between the Bandon Road Roundabout and Rochestown predates the NRA. I’m not sure how much involvement they had in the Dunkettle Roundabout

It’s important to note though that the volume of traffic using the N40 would have been eye watering when the road was planned and a lot of the traffic is down to haphazard development in the meantime. I live less than 1km from the N40 and my house wasn’t even in planning when the South Ring Road was built there

I clearly remember kicking a ball around on the South Ring Road in 1994 as the wall where Coffey's Field (Bridge by Deanrock Bar) is had a gap in it, modern H&S legislation wouldn't allow it and it was before the introduction of the Occupiers Liability Act 1995, houses shot up after that road was built.

D.L.R.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Name a single infrastructure project started in Cork by this government. Shovels aren’t yet in the ground in Macroom. Not a single major infrastructure project to benefit cork. Not one. You cannot day that about any other Irish city.

I feel your pain but can you name one in Dublin?

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

As for the rest of your post, utter capal cac, the most expensive transport schemes in recent years are the Gort to Tuam and new ross bypass motorways both heavily overdesigned roads and both in regions that couldnt sustain such expenditure independently. The lack of PT is nationwide. Take the luas as an example. Completely over capacity within 10 years of opening due to under designing.

That doesn't address the content of my post whatsoever though? I've literally been in a meeting where they rubbished the idea of provision of sustainable transport in Little Island, citing Knocknacarra as a reference point.

I fully agree that the lack of PT is nationwide: I fully agree also that this is an "Ireland" problem every bit as much as a "Cork" problem. I'm saying that the difference between "rest of rural Ireland" and Cork is that "rest of rural Ireland" wouldn't have as good a cost/benefit ratio as Cork for most sustainable transport projects.

Investing money into roads has come at a higher priority than sustainable transport investment. We agree. But we're here discussing investment in the two as though there's some kind of trade-off to be had. There's a difference between fixing the road between Westport and Castlebar and trying to reduce the level of urban motorists in Cork and they meet totally opposing needs.

I'm not accusing anyone of an "anti-Cork" bias, I'm just saying that the needs of Cork City as a predominantly urban area are not really addressed in the same way as the needs of Dublin as a predominantly urban area. It's treated like one of the other small towns in Ireland, but it's actually supposed to be working with Limerick to try to provide a counterbalance to Dublin and take the pressure off Dublin. Put simply, this is just not happening at all. We see a kind of "all over the country needs infrastructure" approach instead.

And to come back to the point of the thread, the linkage between Cork and Limerick is very poor. The idea of these two cities working together as a counterweight to Dublin, when you can't even accurately predict journey time between the two isn't realistic. Both see each other as competitors more than partners in a lot of cases and everybody loses out as a result.

AugustusMinimus

D.L.R. wrote: »

I feel your pain but can you name one in Dublin?

Luas Cross City

Isambard

M7 widening...not technically in Dublin but certainly for Dublin

AugustusMinimus

Newlands Cross flyover construction started in 2013.