M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Castlekeeper

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Just had a look at Google Maps and I would say it's c.30 km longer via Cahir (c. 126 km from N24 junction in Limerick to Dunkettle vs 97 from E20 junction in Limerick to Blackpool.
Motorway build would appear to be 30km shorter compared to going from existing N20 turn off , 86km, to N24-Cahir, 55 km.

I'd be well familiar with these roads and given the extra distance it probably wouldn't take enough traffic off the N20 to free up Charleville and Buttevant but if these were bypassed you'd never see a Motorway!

Not actually sure if we need motorways versus good roads but I think that's more a road safety consideration?

Because the present motorway comes to beyond Patrickswell the extra distance is only about 20KM. As well it would be easier to integrate the motorway here than at the Tipperary side of Limerick where you would be coming onto the part going past Limerick city.

The problem lies if you choose the Cahir option you still have a huge issue with the present N20. Now I agree if the cahir option is chosen the M20 will never be a motorway but a serious upgrade will be required. in reality from Ennis to Tuam need never have been motorways a good quality two lane carrigeway would have sufficed most of the way similar to the road from Abbeyfeale to Castleisland and the Knock bypass.

A similar road to Cahir from limerick would suffice for access to the motorway at Cahir for traffic onto Rosslare. However the N20 is different if you want to connect Limerick and Cork and use them as a hub to reduce pressure on Dublin city and counter balance the pull of economic development in Dublin then the M20 is the only option. It would also drive the development of Shannon airport as now it would be about an hour drive from Cork and less than 40 minutes from Galway.

As I said already I'm well familiar with the roads, junctions included, based on Google maps as shown above, difference would be 30km.
It's not a big deal but doing a Boris on it is annoying. If you've a different way to measure it put it up.

Castlekeeper

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The Cahir route makes a lot of sense it would obviously be cheaper and it would improve connectivity to Rosslare.
Maybe this has been done to death already and found wanting.

Not having a go at you, but this has been done every 3-6 months for the last 15 years. It's not a viable route for the majority of traffic currently using the N20, the Dunkettle Interchange can't support the volume it would add, etc etc etc. In short the N20 will need to be done regardless and is a higher priority than Limerick-Rosslare.

Oh I don't take it personally, hence my post, wasn't expecting such a general response at all from posters.
It was just in the context of nothing happening at all.

hans aus dtschl

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Oh I don't take it personally, hence my post, wasn't expecting such a general response at all from posters.
It was just in the context of nothing happening at all.

Believe me, I know where you're coming from.
If you scroll back through the thread you'll find me asking exactly the same question a few years ago.

Unfortunately the requirements are for the M20 or a shadow on the same corridor, there is no alternative. Many here would also prefer if the N40 north was done at the same time.

Regarding the green agenda, some here will know that I'm slow to advocate for more roads, but immediate safety trumps long-term climate issues, and the N20 is a death trap. By all means let's argue (demand?) for equal expenditure and action on sustainable infrastructure for the same route, toll it heavily for cars etc but the M20 needs to happen.

Sam Russell

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Believe me, I know where you're coming from.
If you scroll back through the thread you'll find me asking exactly the same question a few years ago.

Unfortunately the requirements are for the M20 or a shadow on the same corridor, there is no alternative. Many here would also prefer if the N40 north was done at the same time.

Regarding the green agenda, some here will know that I'm slow to advocate for more roads, but immediate safety trumps long-term climate issues, and the N20 is a death trap. By all means let's argue (demand?) for equal expenditure and action on sustainable infrastructure for the same route, toll it heavily for cars etc but the M20 needs to happen.

The port tunnel in Dublin does this and has been very good at controlling access for cars, particularly at peak times.

[Aside]It is a pity that do not remove the toll from the East Link and put it onto the Becket Bridge instead.[/Aside]

hans aus dtschl

Sam Russell wrote: »

The port tunnel in Dublin does this and has been very good at controlling access for cars, particularly at peak times.

[Aside]It is a pity that do not remove the toll from the East Link and put it onto the Becket Bridge instead.[/Aside]

Does anyone know if the 2+2 at Blarney is included as part of the overall M20 scheme?
Because CMATS sees a station with P&R at Station Road in Blarney. And a bus connects route down Station Road.
So it would seem to be a good idea to have a full grade separated junction at Station Road and perhaps a toll just immediately south/east of that. Does anyone know why such a junction (Station Road) wasn't created for the N20? They avoided it completely.

Cork Trucker

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Does anyone know if the 2+2 at Blarney is included as part of the overall M20 scheme?
Because CMATS sees a station with P&R at Station Road in Blarney. And a bus connects route down Station Road.
So it would seem to be a good idea to have a full grade separated junction at Station Road and perhaps a toll just immediately south/east of that. Does anyone know why such a junction (Station Road) wasn't created for the N20? They avoided it completely.

A P&R on Station Road? Been a while since i was out there but i wouldn't see where the space is unless it is on the Whitechurch side of the bridge. The Blarney Business Park could certainly accommodate it.

hans aus dtschl

Cork Trucker wrote: »

A P&R on Station Road? Been a while since i was out there but i wouldn't see where the space is unless it is on the Whitechurch side of the bridge. The Blarney Business Park could certainly accommodate it.

Between M20 and railway there's space. I'm not sure exactly what they have in mind though, because the graphics are very high-level, but they call it Blarney/Stoneview: "P&R to accommodate traffic from N20 on suburban rail". They state 10 min frequency. It's on page 64 of CMATS.

Of course as the NTA have been at great pains to repeatedly tell us, they've done absolutely nothing since the publication of CMATS, because it was the summer and the city boundary changed and employees are moving between county and city councils and because the cat had kittens etc. So no idea whether anything will actually happen there. But the idea seems to be a good one. To my mind the problem then would be the tricky job of preventing people rat-running through Blarney to avoid the toll.

Reputable Rog

Cork Trucker wrote: »

A P&R on Station Road? Been a while since i was out there but i wouldn't see where the space is unless it is on the Whitechurch side of the bridge. The Blarney Business Park could certainly accommodate it.

Dairygold

marno21

Project website launched @ www.corklimerick.ie

The website seems basic and devoid of functionality but this should hopefully mean the first public consultation is just around the corner.

Shedite27

marno21 wrote: »

Project website launched @ www.corklimerick.ie

The website seems basic and devoid of functionality but this should hopefully mean the first public consultation is just around the corner.

Looks like a website from 1998 with all the "Under Construction" signs.

marno21

Shedite27 wrote: »

Looks like a website from 1998 with all the "Under Construction" signs.

If only the M20 itself looked like that

raindodger

marno21 wrote: »

If only the M20 itself looked like that

looks more like an election poster

marno21

Some updates:

* The National Ambulance Service has been called out to 36 accidents on the N20 to date this year
* M20 design stage to continue for 18 months more, before Environmental Impact Assessment begins
* Project to be with An Bord Pleanala by 2023.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/figure-show-cork-to-limerick-road-very-dangerous-td-says-956411.html


Sobering stuff.

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

Some updates:

* The National Ambulance Service has been called out to 36 accidents on the N20 to date this year
* M20 design stage to continue for 18 months more, before Environmental Impact Assessment begins
* Project to be with An Bord Pleanala by 2023.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/figure-show-cork-to-limerick-road-very-dangerous-td-says-956411.html


Sobering stuff.

Yet Sherlock done sod all when in government? Another 8 years if it all goes plain sailing, which it won’t. We’ll have another M28 on our hands here yet.

Pale Red

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Yet Sherlock done sod all when in government? Another 8 years if it all goes plain sailing, which it won’t. We’ll have another M28 on our hands here yet.

Would it have been better to split into a few schemes. Charleville to Mallow to take out the worst part of the road first. That would also get rid of the "go by the m8" argument as the remaining stretches would be shorter distance.

Cork Trucker

Pale Red wrote: »

Would it have been better to split into a few schemes. Charleville to Mallow to take out the worst part of the road first. That would also get rid of the "go by the m8" argument as the remaining stretches would be shorter distance.

Would that drive up costs though rather than doing it all in one go? I don't think the M8 suggestion will die off until this is actually built, even then you'll still get idiots wanting that route.

roadmaster

WSP are looking for several Engineers For the M20 based out of limerick. Could the M20 finally be kicking in to gear?

Cork Trucker

roadmaster wrote: »

WSP are looking for several Engineers For the M20 based out of limerick. Could the M20 finally be kicking in to gear?

What worries me about this is, firstly how old this thread is, it was opened just as the last recession struck and the project scrapped, now if we have a no deal in that thing across the pond, another recession is forecast.Will we be driving down that motorway in 10 years or celebrating the 21st birthday of this thread.

Reputable Rog

Cork Trucker wrote: »

What worries me about this is, firstly how old this thread is, it was opened just as the last recession struck and the project scrapped, now if we have a no deal in that thing across the pond, another recession is forecast.Will we be driving down that motorway in 10 years or celebrating the 21st birthday of this thread.

As I said before the Berlin Wall stood for 10,316 days, this thread is now on 4,051 days. I predict this thread will last longer than the Berlin Wall.

Cork Trucker

Reputable Rog wrote: »

As I said before the Berlin Wall stood for 10,316 days, this thread is now on 4,051 days. I predict this thread will last longer than the Berlin Wall.

You did, in fairness I do remember you saying that.

JamesBond2010

Reputable Rog wrote: »

As I said before the Berlin Wall stood for 10,316 days, this thread is now on 4,051 days. I predict this thread will last longer than the Berlin Wall.

There has been kids born & nearly teenagers now.Waiting for the thread to turn 21is next big one now.:D:D:D.

Cork Trucker

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

There has been kids born & nearly teenagers now.Waiting for the thread to turn 21is next big one now.:D:D:D.

Those said children will be grandparents and will still be waiting for the road to be built :pac:

Chris_5339762

Still less than half the views and half the replies of my M17 thread

Cork Trucker

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Still less than half the views and half the replies of my M17 thread

Boardsies are probably looking in on that threas to see why they build that and the M20 wasn't built.

Cork Trucker

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Boardsies are probably looking in on that threas to see why they build that and the M20 wasn't built.

It was further along the process when the recession hit

Hibernicis

Pale Red wrote: »

Would it have been better to split into a few schemes. Charleville to Mallow to take out the worst part of the road first. That would also get rid of the "go by the m8" argument as the remaining stretches would be shorter distance.

AFAIK the 2008 plan was to build it in two phases, a Southern section and a Northern section. It will be interesting to see if this resurfaces this time. Building the full length (90km-100km) as a singe project would be unusually long in terms of contracts previously awarded in this country.

As a roaduser who has to drive Cork-Limerick a couple of times a week (though I now usually take the Ballylanders-Hospital-Caherconlish “freeway”) if the M20 road project were to be divided up, i would prioritise it as follows:

1. Mallow to Croom* - 45Km – Replace existing cow track with new grade separated M/HQDC

2. Cork to Mallow – 35Km – Convert from single carriage way at grade to grade separated M/HQDC

3. Croom to M20/N21 junction – 9km - Convert from single carriage way at grade/grade separated to grade separated M/HQDC

4. M20/N21 junction to M20/M7 junction – 10Km – upgrade junctions

Not sure I’d bother splitting step 3 from step 1, but if it did make a difference to the cash flow, step 1 is a far higher priority. That said, if a motorway ended at Croom and funneled into the exiting Croom to M20/N21 junction stretch, that would end up having a de-facto running speed of 125km and become a complete death trap.

* Small point - I would do Mallow to Croom rather than Mallow to Charleville as you suggest as one project given that the Croom to Charleville stretch is every bit as dangerous as the Charleville to Mallow stretch.

The M8 route would be a very poor alternative, offering nothing to East Kerry, Mallow etc, dumping another ton of traffic into the Dunkettle junction, and hitting the second lowest quality stretch of the M8 (Cashel-Mitchelstown) which would most certainly need upgrading to cope with the additional traffic.

Cork Trucker

Deleted User wrote: »

It was further along the process when the recession hit

Which makes it all the more depressing

Truckermal

Chris_533976 wrote: »

N20 needs upgrading urgently, at least between Mallow and Croom. May as well do the whole lot.

As for motorway? Well we get one chance to build this thing so lets do it properly. It'll take more traffic than the middle portions of the interurbans which are motorway.

What would the alternatives be? 2+2 doesnt hack it for the connection between the 2nd and 3rd cities on the island. 2+1 is a joke, Wide S2??? No thanks.

Motorway for definate.

Yes Chris i still agree 11 year's later!

Chris_5339762

Hibernicis wrote: »

AFAIK the 2008 plan was to build it in two phases, a Southern section and a Northern section. It will be interesting to see if this resurfaces this time. Building the full length (90km-100km) as a singe project would be unusually long in terms of contracts previously awarded in this country.

Yup. Basically the 1st section to be done would have been the Southern Section, stupidly. It would have been from Blarney to North of Buttevant. I can't remember when the Northern would have gone to construction, but it could have been AFTER the Southern was built.


That in itself was daft, imagine motorway to the north of Buttevant, then trundle through Charleville which would turn into an ungodly bottleneck and onwards along that narrow bit to the Croom bypass.

Chris_5339762

Truckermal wrote: »

Yes Chris i still agree 11 year's later!

When I think back to where I was in life 11 years ago its terrifying nothing has actually been built!!!