M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

prunudo

highwaymaniac wrote: »

It will be a PPP and likely tolled so payments spread over 30 years. Planning process is driving the timeline.

I think politics has played a huge role in this project too. Too afraid to commit to connecting the 2nd and 3rd largest cities. National politicians afraid Dublin will loose out, local politicians afraid to offend land owners who will be effected by the route. The whole thing has been going on far to long, sure look at the start date of this thread and there could well have been a previous thread that split off.

It will be 20 years plus between the first post and when this road is finished. Just let that sink in too see how badly infrastructure is prioritised in this country.

Bass Reeves

highwaymaniac wrote: »

It will be a PPP and likely tolled so payments spread over 30 years. Planning process is driving the timeline.

No tolling/PPP will only provide a small fraction of the overall cost.The main capital will come from the Government. I have heard that the new Adare Bypass and Road onto Foynes port project could be split in two with Adare Bypass being prioritised for the Ryder cup in 2026. This project was scheduled for completion by 2025 to avail of EU finiance for access to ports.

NBP and Children Hospital is looking like costing 4.5-5 billion over the next 5-8 years its a huge part of our Capital budget. The only hope is the Apple money turns up. Part may go to Capital projects.

highwaymaniac

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No tolling/PPP will only provide a small fraction of the overall cost.The main capital will come from the Government. I have heard that the new Adare Bypass and Road onto Foynes port project could be split in two with Adare Bypass being prioritised for the Ryder cup in 2026. This project was scheduled for completion by 2025 to avail of EU finiance for access to ports.

NBP and Children Hospital is looking like costing 4.5-5 billion over the next 5-8 years its a huge part of our Capital budget. The only hope is the Apple money turns up. Part may go to Capital projects.

PPP company has financial backers they provide the full funding up front. Govt pays back equal amounts over 30 years. That's €25million per year hardly need Apple money for that.

Cork Trucker

€800m is the quoted price for the project, or at least it was, this will be another Dunkettle Interchange fisaco, just about to get underway and negotiations will breakdown delaying it even further, i think it has to be built by 2050, at the rate it has gone and is going don't be surprised if we get near that deadline.

Isambard

although an M20 would be a great boon to me, I doubt by the time it is built that it will be of any use to me, although I'll have to endure some of the construction period no doubt, the prospect of which doesn't fill my heart with joy.

Bass Reeves

highwaymaniac wrote: »

PPP company has financial backers they provide the full funding up front. Govt pays back equal amounts over 30 years. That's €25million per year hardly need Apple money for that.

PPP are actually an expensive way of doing these projects. The. Private companies involved expect a 7-10% minimum return on investment over the 30 years AFAIK. On a 7%APR style return the project would cost 55million/year over 30 years.. I think the CH is a PPP as well. The government is limited on its spending even with PPP

highwaymaniac

Bass Reeves wrote: »

PPP are actually an expensive way of doing these projects. The. Private companies involved expect a 7-10% minimum return on investment over the 30 years AFAIK. On a 7%APR style return the project would cost 55million/year over 30 years.. I think the CH is a PPP as well. The government is limited on its spending even with PPP

7-10% sounds about right given they are carrying risk. Childrens Hospital is not a PPP it is a Design and Build - a PPP would have taken a lot longer to progress, hence the significant impact of the cost overruns just in the next 2-3 years. This spreadsheet has all the PPP projects the government is spending money on. committed expenditure is only €7bn across all PPP projects out to 2043-2044 (one or two projects extending past that) Link

if the M20 were tolled based on the 57km M6 scheme total govt outlay would be about €510M incl. VAT although that seems to be front loaded over the first 10 year so looking at €50M/year for 10 years - not bad. If it were no tolls then based on the M17/M18 which is also 57km total outlay would be €1350M incl. VAT which is €45M per year over 30 years. Design and land payments are extra say €200m over 5 years. Either way earliest payment to a PPP co would be 2027 so CH will have absolutely no impact on the M20.

This link has profiled TII PPP expenditure which is averaging circa €135M per year until 2040 - this is very manageable.
TII PPP expenditure

Castlekeeper

The Cahir route makes a lot of sense it would obviously be cheaper and it would improve connectivity to Rosslare.
Maybe this has been done to death already and found wanting.

JCX BXC

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The Cahir route makes a lot of sense it would obviously be cheaper and it would improve connectivity to Rosslare.
Maybe this has been done to death already and found wanting.

But it would be useless.

To be honest, I think many (not saying you in this) that support the Cahir route have yet to actually look at a map of Ireland and see how far out of the way it is.

Idbatterim

prunudo wrote: »

I think politics has played a huge role in this project too. Too afraid to commit to connecting the 2nd and 3rd largest cities. National politicians afraid Dublin will loose out, local politicians afraid to offend land owners who will be effected by the route. The whole thing has been going on far to long, sure look at the start date of this thread and there could well have been a previous thread that split off.

It will be 20 years plus between the first post and when this road is finished. Just let that sink in too see how badly infrastructure is prioritised in this country.

what the hell are you dragging dublin into this for? billions leaves dublins coffers to go to the other counties. The likes of the m20 and dublin metro etc, are top priorities etc and have been for god knows how many years!

How many billion have been spent on motorways with very little traffic!

Last Stop

prunudo wrote: »

I think politics has played a huge role in this project too. Too afraid to commit to connecting the 2nd and 3rd largest cities. National politicians afraid Dublin will loose out, local politicians afraid to offend land owners who will be effected by the route. The whole thing has been going on far to long, sure look at the start date of this thread and there could well have been a previous thread that split off.

It will be 20 years plus between the first post and when this road is finished. Just let that sink in too see how badly infrastructure is prioritised in this country.

Where do people come up with this ****e?
Too afraid to to commit to connecting 2nd and 3rd largest cities? Seriously?? I meant what kind of statement is that considering they already connected the 3rd and 4th largest cities...

The difficulty is of course the funding. €1bn is a significant outlay at anytime but especially considering the economic climate Ireland appears to be constantly stuck in at present.
I ha e always been of the view the FG don’t like capital spending. Their record over the past 10 years is incredibly poor especially when it comes to the number of schemes put through the design process. 4 PPP schemes and 1 Luas line being the highlight over a decade when we needed so much more.

Bass Reeves

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The Cahir route makes a lot of sense it would obviously be cheaper and it would improve connectivity to Rosslare.
Maybe this has been done to death already and found wanting.

The problem with the Cahir route is that it is about 35 KM longer than the M20 route when all motorways are complete. The savings is actually in the building a 64 ish KM V a 85ish KM projects so about 20Km of motorway in the difference and opens up the prospect of a Cork/Limerick to Waterford moterway and on to Rosslare. However the advantages of the M20 route is it brings Mallow and Charlesville into play as commuter town's for Limerick and Cork as well as bringing Killarney and South Kerry tourism to within 65Km of motorway via Mallow.

Even if the motorway goes via Cahir a massive road spend will be required from Croom to Charlesville and from before Buttervant to Rathduff which will end up costing much more than the Cahir option. This would be 47Km of roadway and two bypass'es Charlesville and Buttervant as well as an upgrade of the Mallow bypass. You have to have constantly driven this road to see the issue. It immaterial which route is chosen a massive upgrade of these sections of the N20 will be need if the M20 option is not chosen.

However I am of the opinion that we will not see the M20 option completed until beyond 2030.

Last Stop wrote: »

Where do people come up with this ****e?
Too afraid to to commit to connecting 2nd and 3rd largest cities? Seriously?? I meant what kind of statement is that considering they already connected the 3rd and 4th largest cities...

The difficulty is of course the funding. €1bn is a significant outlay at anytime but especially considering the economic climate Ireland appears to be constantly stuck in at present.
I ha e always been of the view the FG don’t like capital spending. Their record over the past 10 years is incredibly poor especially when it comes to the number of schemes put through the design process. 4 PPP schemes and 1 Luas line being the highlight over a decade when we needed so much more.

TBF to FG the money for major projects have no come into play until 3-4 years ago. The CH and the NBP are the real stumbling blocks. While in theory the CH should only effect healthcare capital spending it is now effecting all capital plans but the NBP is the real killer on top of that. Thrown together they will swallow about 4 billion of spending over the next 5 years or 800 million/year. On top of that the NBP will continue for 2-3 years after costing another 300 million/year. The sums on these two projects are staggering.

It really has to bring into consideration of voting for FG at the next election. However even PPP give limited spending choices. The M20 is competing with Dublin public transport spending such as the Dublin Metro. Where the thinking is that before the tunnelling equipment go'es under the ground should you consider a bigger project which would be more cost effective as the first day cost of dropping in the equipment is the real cost.

marno21

There are plans to build a motorway from Cork to Limerick and dual carriageway from at least Limerick Junction to Waterford. They are both meritorious projects in their own right and it’s justifiable to proceed with both.

Ireland is not a poor country. There is no need for either or, there is a strong case for both.

Just because we have a Government that refuses to build infrastructure and trots out bull**** doesn’t mean it’s the reality. There was a post on SSC yesterday about Transport21 from 2005 which planned motorway/DC from Cork to Letterkenny by 2015. Now the current plan is to have Cork-Tuam, Knock Airport-Sligo and Ballybofey bypassed by 2027, a plan that has been described as “ambitious”

prunudo

I stand by my post, I do believe that there are vested interests, whether they be people or politicians with personal agendas or people in various public bodies that don't want this project to happen and have successfully helped to create the delays that mean it will be another 8 years minimum for the 2 cities to be connected by motorway.
Like many projects in this country if there was political will to get them across the line they would get done.
Apologises to the mods for derailing thread with politics.

Bass Reeves

marno21 wrote: »

There are plans to build a motorway from Cork to Limerick and dual carriageway from at least Limerick Junction to Waterford. They are both meritorious projects in their own right and it’s justifiable to proceed with both.

Ireland is not a poor country. There is no need for either or, there is a strong case for both.

Just because we have a Government that refuses to build infrastructure and trots out bull**** doesn’t mean it’s the reality. There was a post on SSC yesterday about Transport21 from 2005 which planned motorway/DC from Cork to Letterkenny by 2015. Now the current plan is to have Cork-Tuam, Knock Airport-Sligo and Ballybofey bypassed by 2027, a plan that has been described as “ambitious”

In 2005 we were awash with money. We were building houses to sell to ourselves the heady days of the Celtic tiger. The collapse send us from a national debt of about 70 billion to 200 billion. Even with exceptional low interest rates we are still way over borrowed compared to what we should be. The present economic cycle is more than likely finishing which will limit our economic spend over the 5+ years. The problem is the Cork/Limerick motorway should be a top listed structural project but it is being pushed down the line behind other projects.

Castlekeeper

JCX BXC wrote: »

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The Cahir route makes a lot of sense it would obviously be cheaper and it would improve connectivity to Rosslare.
Maybe this has been done to death already and found wanting.

But it would be useless.

To be honest, I think many (not saying you in this) that support the Cahir route have yet to actually look at a map of Ireland and see how far out of the way it is.

I actually looked at the map before I posted and thought "that's not too far out" !

Castlekeeper

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The Cahir route makes a lot of sense it would obviously be cheaper and it would improve connectivity to Rosslare.
Maybe this has been done to death already and found wanting.

The problem with the Cahir route is that it is about 35 KM longer than the M20 route when all motorways are complete. The savings is actually in the building a 64 ish KM V a 85ish KM projects so about 20Km of motorway in the difference and opens up the prospect of a Cork/Limerick to Waterford moterway and on to Rosslare. However the advantages of the M20 route is it brings Mallow and Charlesville into play as commuter town's for Limerick and Cork as well as bringing Killarney and South Kerry tourism to within 65Km of motorway via Mallow.

Even if the motorway goes via Cahir a massive road spend will be required from Croom to Charlesville and from before Buttervant to Rathduff which will end up costing much more than the Cahir option. This would be 47Km of roadway and two bypass'es Charlesville and Buttervant as well as an upgrade of the Mallow bypass. You have to have constantly driven this road to see the issue. It immaterial which route is chosen a massive upgrade of these sections of the N20 will be need if the M20 option is not chosen.

Just had a look at Google Maps and I would say it's c.30 km longer via Cahir (c. 126 km from N24 junction in Limerick to Dunkettle vs 97 from E20 junction in Limerick to Blackpool.
Motorway build would appear to be 30km shorter compared to going from existing N20 turn off , 86km, to N24-Cahir, 55 km.

I'd be well familiar with these roads and given the extra distance it probably wouldn't take enough traffic off the N20 to free up Charleville and Buttevant but if these were bypassed you'd never see a Motorway!

Not actually sure if we need motorways versus good roads but I think that's more a road safety consideration?

Bass Reeves

Castlekeeper wrote: »

Just had a look at Google Maps and I would say it's c.30 km longer via Cahir (c. 126 km from N24 junction in Limerick to Dunkettle vs 97 from E20 junction in Limerick to Blackpool.
Motorway build would appear to be 30km shorter compared to going from existing N20 turn off , 86km, to N24-Cahir, 55 km.

I'd be well familiar with these roads and given the extra distance it probably wouldn't take enough traffic off the N20 to free up Charleville and Buttevant but if these were bypassed you'd never see a Motorway!

Not actually sure if we need motorways versus good roads but I think that's more a road safety consideration?

Because the present motorway comes to beyond Patrickswell the extra distance is only about 20KM. As well it would be easier to integrate the motorway here than at the Tipperary side of Limerick where you would be coming onto the part going past Limerick city.

The problem lies if you choose the Cahir option you still have a huge issue with the present N20. Now I agree if the cahir option is chosen the M20 will never be a motorway but a serious upgrade will be required. in reality from Ennis to Tuam need never have been motorways a good quality two lane carrigeway would have sufficed most of the way similar to the road from Abbeyfeale to Castleisland and the Knock bypass.

A similar road to Cahir from limerick would suffice for access to the motorway at Cahir for traffic onto Rosslare. However the N20 is different if you want to connect Limerick and Cork and use them as a hub to reduce pressure on Dublin city and counter balance the pull of economic development in Dublin then the M20 is the only option. It would also drive the development of Shannon airport as now it would be about an hour drive from Cork and less than 40 minutes from Galway.

alias no.9

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The Cahir route makes a lot of sense it would obviously be cheaper and it would improve connectivity to Rosslare.
Maybe this has been done to death already and found wanting.

It may help connectivity between Limerick and Rosslare but it doesn't come within an asses roar of improving connectivity between Cork and Limerick which is the primary goal. Why would you pursue an option on the basis that it delivers a nice to have when it fails miserably at the main objective?

Lets cut out the nonsense about being cheaper too, Cork to Mallow would still need a massive upgrade including a new Mallow bypass. Charleville will still need to be bypassed and Buttevant will still need to be bypassed including the Ballybeg bends.

If you're going to pursue the phoney cost saving agenda, why not do it properly and just put roadsigns for Cork in Limerick pointing towards Dublin and the roadsigns for Limerick in Cork pointing towards Dublin and they can interchange between the M7 and M8 at Portlaoise, you'll have the whole lot done for the price of a few roadsigns and it will be equally useful for traffic between Cork and Limerick

alias no.9

I think this image captures how human behaviour will respond to an M20 routed through Cahir

snotboogie

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Because the present motorway comes to beyond Patrickswell the extra distance is only about 20KM. As well it would be easier to integrate the motorway here than at the Tipperary side of Limerick where you would be coming onto the part going past Limerick city.

The problem lies if you choose the Cahir option you still have a huge issue with the present N20. Now I agree if the cahir option is chosen the M20 will never be a motorway but a serious upgrade will be required. in reality from Ennis to Tuam need never have been motorways a good quality two lane carrigeway would have sufficed most of the way similar to the road from Abbeyfeale to Castleisland and the Knock bypass.

A similar road to Cahir from limerick would suffice for access to the motorway at Cahir for traffic onto Rosslare. However the N20 is different if you want to connect Limerick and Cork and use them as a hub to reduce pressure on Dublin city and counter balance the pull of economic development in Dublin then the M20 is the only option. It would also drive the development of Shannon airport as now it would be about an hour drive from Cork and less than 40 minutes from Galway.

M18 did nothing for Shannon Airport. The M20 may actually have a negative impact on Shannon since it will link Limerick with a better served airport with more routes in Cork.

hans aus dtschl

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The Cahir route makes a lot of sense it would obviously be cheaper and it would improve connectivity to Rosslare.
Maybe this has been done to death already and found wanting.

Not having a go at you, but this has been done every 3-6 months for the last 15 years. It's not a viable route for the majority of traffic currently using the N20, the Dunkettle Interchange can't support the volume it would add, etc etc etc. In short the N20 will need to be done regardless and is a higher priority than Limerick-Rosslare.

Last Stop

Surely following the current route rather than the chair route would have a better cost benefit ratio given it would take mallow-cork and croom-Limerick traffic as well as Limerick-Cork.

road_high

I’m not from the area at all but I don’t see where the via Cahir route came from- this as well as all the other drawbacks will lump extra traffic on the already busy M8. I’d say the toll company near Fermoy have no objections.
The N24 badly needs an upgrade too but separate requirement to the N20

Last Stop

Bass Reeves wrote: »

TBF to FG the money for major projects have no come into play until 3-4 years ago. The CH and the NBP are the real stumbling blocks. While in theory the CH should only effect healthcare capital spending it is now effecting all capital plans but the NBP is the real killer on top of that. Thrown together they will swallow about 4 billion of spending over the next 5 years or 800 million/year. On top of that the NBP will continue for 2-3 years after costing another 300 million/year. The sums on these two projects are staggering.

It really has to bring into consideration of voting for FG at the next election. However even PPP give limited spending choices. The M20 is competing with Dublin public transport spending such as the Dublin Metro. Where the thinking is that before the tunnelling equipment go'es under the ground should you consider a bigger project which would be more cost effective as the first day cost of dropping in the equipment is the real cost.

I get what you’re saying but have to disagree.
While yes finances were tight, if you believe the figures Ireland left the recession in 2013. I know austerity went on for longer than that but the fact that all design of major projects in Ireland effectively stopped and has only really restarted in the last year is an indicative of the situation.
I think the CH and NBP further highlight FGs ineptitude. Remember they were the ones who were in government when the mater site was refused.
Surely it must come into voters thinking. I mean every bloody survey for the last 5 years has shown that 2/3 of people want services (including infrastructure) over tax cuts and yet Leo still goes on about tax cuts.
The metro will not be a PPP so I don’t foresee it being in conflict with that. The biggest risk is climate change tbh. Does the government has the bravery to invest in a motorway with the greens breathing down their neck. Common sense would tell you that the greens are always going to be a minor party but politics and common sense don’t tend to go together... the Cahir route a case in point

alias no.9

road_high wrote: »

I’m not from the area at all but I don’t see where the via Cahir route came from- this as well as all the other drawbacks will lump extra traffic on the already busy M8. I’d say the toll company near Fermoy have no objections.
The N24 badly needs an upgrade too but separate requirement to the N20

The Cahir proposal is so bat**** that I initially thought that agenda was driven by some landowner near Cahir but it seems to be Mallow centric.
It's being pushed by a group who've given themselves an import sounding name and has been advanced as supposed cost savings but scratching the surface suggests its little more than common or garden NIMBY.

road_high

alias no.9 wrote: »

The Cahir proposal is so bat**** that I initially thought that agenda was driven by some landowner near Cahir but it seems to be Mallow centric.
It's being pushed by a group who've given themselves an import sounding name and has been advanced as supposed cost savings but scratching the surface suggests its little more than common or garden NIMBY.

Is it landowners around mallow that don’t want it you mean?
This does happen with major routes- all the interurbans had various differing route proposals but broadly followed the exuding shadow N roads in the end

alias no.9

road_high wrote: »

Is it landowners around mallow that don’t want it you mean?
This does happen with major routes- all the interurbans had various differing route proposals but broadly followed the exuding shadow N roads in the end

Landowners want the route to pass through the lands of landowners in another county and attempt to cloak their argument behind a veil of fiscal rectitude.

Shedite27

Castlekeeper wrote: »

The Cahir route makes a lot of sense it would obviously be cheaper and it would improve connectivity to Rosslare.
Maybe this has been done to death already and found wanting.

I'm 100% for the Mallow route, but just to point out, I'm from Glanmire, the way to Limerick is to turn off at Mitchelstown, not Cahir. It's about 45km motorway, 50km backroads. Not sure why you'd go to Cahir to build an imaginary route.

alias no.9

Shedite27 wrote: »

I'm 100% for the Mallow route, but just to point out, I'm from Glanmire, the way to Limerick is to turn off at Mitchelstown, not Cahir. It's about 45km motorway, 50km backroads. Not sure why you'd go to Cahir to build an imaginary route.

The landowners who don't want to be impacted by a roue loosely following the existing N20 probaby have landowner friends who could be impacted by a route travelling west of the galtees to join the M8. There's simply no other reason to go north of the Galtees, it's bat**** crazy.