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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    What did I say that was wrong?

    Significant quantities of usable stone can't be assumed. Given the route is through prime agricultural land, volumes of stone excavated are likely to be at the lower end of the scale.

    As you say, cut/fill is considered at design stage. The initial route study area was huge which allowed scope to select a route with favourable ground conditions and requiring minimal cut/fill. The terrain along the route generally is quite flat.

    What stone is there would have to be tested to determine what it can be used for. If the route doesn't have much stone, and the stone that is there is poor, then you won't yield much from within the site.

    Several quarries would be supplying to the M20 regardless of it being one or several contracts. Haul distances alone would mean you'd need a huge fleet of trucks as the number of daily runs to far away parts would be low.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,831 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    To do a kilometer of road 30m wide to a dept of 600mm requires a thousand ton of stone. That is why road design makes allowances for cut/fill at tge planning of tge project. Yes stone will have to be drawn in but in general they will minimise that. Any stone found along the road design will be used in some form or other

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Cut and fill earthworks often don't involve any stone at all, its mostly soil. The recent Ballyvourney to Macroom required going through areas with a lot of rock but that project was an exception. The nature of this island means that soft ground is more likely to be an issue and large volumes of stone has to be imported.

    There is a strict specification for stone in road buildup and this comes mostly from established quarries. Any stone excavated from within the site will generally be used for making up levels elsewhere, filling in localised soft spots or embankments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 569 ✭✭✭Exiled Rebel


    Roadstone have an enormous quarry a stones throw from the proposed Mallow exit. Pun intended 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 250 ✭✭Mr.CoolGuy


    I drove to Shannon from Cork today and both my Map apps were telling me to go through Mitchelstown both directions, during rush hour and during normal traffic. This got me thinking about how many of the Cork Commuter belt never use the n20 as it currently is because it is so terrible. I bring this up because I feel the official journey numbers between the two cities are massively under reported due to this.

    I checked it out, and if I just stick to Cork city Commuter towns I got a population of 125,000 that should realistically never use the N20. This is more people than Limerick's metropolitan district! Let me know if you think I got the area wrong, but I feel everyone in this area would be better off going up the M8



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Even if the M20 was built and open people living in that area would still mainly have to travel through the city to reach it so would probably continue to use the M8.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 250 ✭✭Mr.CoolGuy


    It shows we need a proper northern bypass as part of it too, but I think if traffic was ok/normal, it would be worth going through the city (or around the current n ring road) and heading straight up a full Motorway instead of half way up the M8 and gambling you won't hit a load of tractors between Mitchelstown and Caherconlish



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,099 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I'll use the M8 route most of the time to get to Limerick, but unless you know it, it is quite a dangerous road. The few narrow bridges, the sudden badly marked speedbumps outside of Hospital and coming south, that bridge followed by a sharp left. Its not a NICE road at all. But its better than the N20.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,003 ✭✭✭gifted


    Hopefully this will move a lot faster now the greens have been removed.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 345 ✭✭rounders


    Despite peoples love to bash the greens, this has moved as fast as it could with design, route selection etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭source


    May have moved a Iittle bit faster if they didn't have to add the active travel element that the greens insisted on.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    One would hope that the next transport minister doesn't let large projects like this sit on his or her desk when they need to be brought to Cabinet for approval to move to the next stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I will not object to a short delay that has made the project much better overall. The rest area and EV charging provisions are something sorely lacking from the rest of the motorway network, and adding a high quality pedestrian/cycleway between the towns and villages on the route costs very little extra, but adds a lot of utility.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,316 ✭✭✭source


    Honestly I don't think it's of any real benefit. My daily commute is by bike so this isn't an anti cycling take. I honestly don't see it being used. It's not like it's going to be a quiet greenway, meandering through the country side along an existing former rail line, usually with mature vegetation.

    This is going to be a cycle lane running along the side of a motorway, it will be wide open, noisy and provide little to no shelter. I have cycled along dual carriageways before and they are not a pleasant place to cycle because of how open they are.

    It's nothing more than green window dressing to make them feel good about allowing a road project to progress.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    It will link Blarney to the city. There's currently no cycle infrastructure between the two. It would be an obvious commute.

    I've said it a few times, but I was previously against greenways for commuter use as I felt I wouldn't use them. But I've been proven wrong: people do use them for commuting. I also cycle dual carriageways many days on my commute, to refute your other point.

    I'd also like to take a moment to point out that the greenway was in no way the delay in this road being implemented. I understand that you might not like greenways and that you would have preferred if the road was built sooner - so would I - but the two things are not linked in any meaningful way. This road was delayed by years for reasons that are nothing to do with greenways or the Green party.

    In fact it takes significant mental gymnastics for the NM20 to be blamed on the Greens. I'll be gentle and simply use the words "bailout" and "Varadkar".

    As I said in another thread, a lot of people are in for a shock when they realise that a lot of what the Greens were being blamed for was nothing to do with them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,465 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    This is going to be a cycle lane running along the side of a motorway, it will be wide open, noisy and provide little to no shelter

    Is this actually the case or hyperbole?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Closest distance will be 10 metres from the edge of the carriageway, so 12.5 metres from any motor traffic (for reference, that’s the width of a wide single carriageway road). In many cases, the cycleway runs alongside at the normal ground level while the motorway is in a cutting or embankment. The cycleway diverts, usually along existing roads, to travel through towns.

    Have a look for yourself here, on the proposed design. The cycleway is drawn in orange (new alignment) or purple (addition to existing road), but you have to zoom in to see it: NM20 Interactive Web Map 2023



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Primarily hyperbole.

    The project team is aiming for a large separation, including grade separation, fencing, landscaping etc. They haven't formally agreed the separation width but I remember being surprised by how large they were proposing, certainly 10m, and I think I remember them saying 30m. That would be roughly what the Blackrock greenway has along the N40 in Cork.

    Thus the proposed greenway will not be along the side of the motorway but at distance from it. Large portions of the route (~35%) will be nowhere near the motorway alignment at all.

    It will not be wide open: there will be grade separation, fencing and landscaping.

    I can't speak about it being noisy until the separation distance is agreed, but the design team are explicitly aiming for it to not be noisy.

    I'm not sure about "little to no shelter" though: I don't know of any road or greenway that I could say is "sheltered" so I won't try a rebuttal there.

    Drawings available here:

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hgypxyhr1okcddkqovmhs/A1-Drawing.pdf?rlkey=4wmk8qu92ttcwgd4sp3dvsdw2&e=1&st=5isnd1ne&dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5g5uyr3jtl7s3a9bses97/Developing-Design-Active-Travel.pdf?rlkey=5hv2y4j958t2eoe7p42tsa046&e=1&st=xu3icm98&dl=0



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    We are due an update on this very soon, with an application to ABP soon after.. that is then when the fun begins.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    I'd be hopeful that the groundwork done by the project team over the last few years, especially the communication and public consultations and the subsequent reworking of the plan to take account of points raised will bear fruit and smooth the path through ABP and head off any attempt at JR. Nothing is certain, but the handling of this project is 1,000,000 miles away from the incompetence and arrogance that CCC et al displayed in relation to the M28. Hopefully this project will have a much smoother path, aided, abetted and supported by a minister that isn't e. ryan esq.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 345 ✭✭rounders


    They expect the next update to be around Feb based on the last time I spoke with the design office



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It's Eamon Ryan's changes to this project to promote active travel, EV use and public transport that will protect it from JRs on the grounds of our climate treaty obligations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Peculiar article in the SBP under the heading "Why the N/M20 Cork to Limerick project is a sustainable transport solution"

    https://www.businesspost.ie/commercial-reports/why-the-n-m20-cork-to-limerick-project-is-a-sustainable-transport-solution/



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There's a special 8 page supplement on sustainable transport in this week's paper and this is a half page article on page 2 by TII CEO Peter Walsh highlighting the sustainable nature of the proposed M20 project.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,941 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    It's not peculiar at all, if this motorway ever gets built the communities along the route will get a huge boost so sustainability is key



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I find these claims about sustainability here to be a marketing exercise. As I said before, they have some car parks which they have labelled as "hubs" but you wouldn't know much of the road is to run parallel to the rail line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Railway stations aren’t mentioned, because this is a project to build a road. The road allows for at least one P+R rail station on the approach to Cork, but the exact location is not fixed, and building it is not part of the project. If they put the exact tie-in into the road planning application it could create problems for IÉ by forcing them into a location that, by the time the road is built, may not suit their other plans. Deciding on a station location so early could also draw NIMBY protests long before any such station is built. When the M20 is built, or under construction, IÉ will submit an application to build a new station, and part of that Railway Order will be the tie-in with M20.

    As for the hubs being “just car parks” - have you ever seen all the cars parked up on the hard shoulder on the roads into Dublin? These are from carpooling agreements between commuters: one driver gets to the main road, parks up, and the second one picks them up and brings them into the city; the two (or more people) then split the fuel and parking costs. The M20 hubs allow these arrangements to be accommodated safely. Putting a bus service to the parking areas also allows trip-sharing and co-commuting for people who don’t even have a car.

    Sometimes all you actually need is “just a car park”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,309 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    But designing the road without consideration for the railway does tie IÉ into locations that may not suit their other plans. Anything IÉ may look to do will have to work with the road as designed. Had both been taken into consideration together, something may have been done differently to accommodate IÉ. As it is, IÉ want a P&R at Blarney but the obvious location for a Blarney station will have four roundabouts between it and the motorway, limiting its attractiveness as a P&R. With the way the road is being designed, they'd be better off having Blarney as a station for the town only (with a bus link). They should put the P&R at the next junction north which is beside the rail line so easy access/exit which might entice people out of their cars. I don't see any negative in considering station locations in conjuction with the road, once the road is built it definitely have an impact on future potential station locations so better to do it now.

    Regarding the "Transport Hubs", they can accommodate existing carpoolers and maybe attract a few more but it is hardly a win for sustainability as the motorway itself is going to facilitate an increase is car journeys. A place for carpooling (and probably dogging) is hardly a transport hub. P&Rs with bus services only is a hard sell as people have to get into their car to start their journey and will later face the same traffic in a bus as they would in their car. It seems like a huge missed opportunity that there will be trains running to Mallow every 10 minutes but will run non-stop for 25km between Blarney and Mallow. Yet with the €1bn road project which is supposedly big on sustainability, they are only providing "Transport Hubs" which may be served by buses (what routes, what frequency, etc. unknown). I'm sure I'll be told that the project team have nothing to do with buses which is true but without buses, these "Transport Hubs" are definitely just car parks. The rail line is there and the services are being put in place, why not connect to those?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    A lot of bus services in Ireland are privately run so a State agency like the NTA has no control over what will be provided there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    Still no sign of the preliminary business case for approval by Cabinet, so it can then be submitted to ABP?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    There is still a final design to be published so I'd imagine they cant proceed until thats complete?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,340 ✭✭✭jacool


    Probably a stupid question, but I'm renowned for them!

    is there any fear that if this motorway is successfully completed that Cork Airport comes under risk?

    I know that Galway Airport went downhill rapidly once you could get to Shannon in 45 mins (and yes Knock too).

    Galway used to serve 10 or so UK destinations, plus France, Spain and Portugal and I once flew from Cork to Galway in 20 minutes!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    As said above, it's not at that stage yet. Also no decisions like that would be made by a caretaker Cabinet anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Not a stupid question at all. Actually, I think the road could be good for both airports, as it would allow them to function as a complementary pair, rather than two isolated services.

    Right now, Shannon’s limited catchment means it struggles to get passengers, but it can do something that Cork cannot: it is capable of handling large aircraft and long-haul flights.

    I’m based in Cork. If I were travelling to the USA, my current options are to fly via a Cork-London first hop, or drive to Dublin for a more direct link. Dublin has fewer US destinations, but it has the huge advantage that I can go through the monster ball-ache that is US immigration before I board the plane… but going to Dublin means a nearly three-hour drive, making it slower than London overall. (That drive is fine outbound, but not so good when you’re seriously jetlagged on return)

    Shannon also offers that US pre-clearance, and with M20 in place it would be a little over an hour away by road. I and the other half a million people living in Co. Cork will suddenly be able to consider Shannon as a reasonable option.

    That might make you worry about Cork’s future, but the thing is, for a short haul fight, that hour of travel to Shannon isn’t worth it, unless you’re trying to avoid a connection. So, Cork will still be able to offer its short-haul and holiday flights, but the road link works both ways, and they could pick up some Limerick customers too. In this, there’s scope for both airports to offer a more complementary set of destinations, so that your choice becomes a flight out of Cork or Shannon, and everyone in the Southwest is less likely to need to go to Dublin just to fly to a nearby European city.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭pigtown


    As a Limerickman, I've never considered Cork airport. If I can't fly from Shannon I'll just get the very comfortable bus to Dublin airport. Ideally when this new road opens there will be regular direct buses between both cities and the airports, possibly a single route that goes from airport to airport stopping at both cities in between.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,602 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Nail on the head here.

    Cork is realistically not getting any medium/long haul flights anytime soon so having an airport that provides them with a seamless experience an hour away by motorway is a pretty good compromise. Additionally, if Cork people start using Shannon more and there's more demand it means the seasonal flights will have longer seasons and better frequencies. A win win for everyone involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I strongly agree both airports will benefit too.

    On top of that, improved local public transport to those airports (and from the surrounding areas like Waterford, Kerry) would allow them to start to really compete with Dublin. Not to steal Leinster passengers or anything weird like that, but at the moment a lot of Munster people are going to Dublin for flights and this doesn't need to be the case. There's a population of around 1.5million people to draw from, just that neither airport is fully connected to its population.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Out of interest, what would the travel time be Cork to Shannon and Limerick to Cork Airport?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,636 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    The Cork end will still be the issue as you'll still have to traverse the city, but via dual carriage/motorway from Blarney to Shannon Airport should only take around an hour (~80km @ 120kmph and ~20k @ 100kmph).

    If it's only 40mins from Limerick to North of Cork City though you'd get over having to traverse the city centre.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I misunderstood the question. But even now it's not too bad, I use Shannon a bit from Cork. The airports are both an absolute pleasure, once you arrive there's little stress left. It's the unpredictability of the journey between the two that's the problem currently. Think of even diverted flights - currently an annoyance of mine - it would now really only mean a reliable enough extra 90 min delay.

    I keep harping on about it, but if either airport got the local connectivity dialled it would be a game changer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 345 ✭✭rounders


    It would be a game changer if Cork and Shannon were in a group together rather than Cork and Dublin part of DAA with Shannon being independent.

    They could then really push as one voice and make the argument for the two airports to compliment each other and push for the bus connections etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,099 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    And this is still my big argument with the whole plan at the moment in that the M20 and M8 will be a few kilometers apart and pootling through Blackpool is the only option.

    The Cork Northern Distributor will help, but it is not a solution really. It will also be fought.

    The Cork North RING (the M8/M20 link part of it) is absolutely essential planning. But Eamonn Ryan didn't fund it. That needs to happen for the pure sanity of it anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    In this case, the CNRR would not make the journey any quicker. Google Maps says it's 15-40 minutes from the Killeens exit on Commons Road (roughly where M20 would meet N40), to Cork Airport. Distance is 11.5 km, so about 30-50 km/h average Using CNRR means doubling the route distance, but also adding the Jack Lynch Tunnel to the mix, so even the higher allowed speed wouldn't compensate for the longer travel distance.

    Given the time of day when most airport check-ins occur (most flights are gone before 10:30), you would almost always be better off going through the city.

    On N40 funding, I’d love to be “not funded” to the tune of a million quid. It's fairly clear when you look at what has been allocated to this project over the last five years that an initial scoping exercise was carried out, and the result of that arrived in 2023. What's also fairly clear is that it produced a number that was too big for any politician to propose in a country like this, especially with Dunkettle just done and M20 coming down the line after. More evidence is the rumour that the project would now be split into NW and NE, with NE to come first. Here's the funding figures:

    2019: €1,000,000 (first allocation for N40)
    2020: € 250,000
    2021 (post-Ryan): € 300,000
    2022: € 650,000 (plus a share of an additional € 600,000 for a TEN-T study on N40 as a whole)
    2023: € 100,000
    2024: € 0



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,258 ✭✭✭zetecescort


    apologies if there is a seperate thread for it but whats the latest on the Mallow Northern bypass?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Hibernicis




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I'd happily accept a split project if I'm honest. NE is reasonably urgent I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72 ✭✭Pale Red


    Glad to see this as I had heard a rumour that the project was torpedoed by the discovery of some rare fauna.

    https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local-news/1708875/green-light-for-commencement-of-the-next-phase-of-the-adare-bypass.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 820 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    Final design was due out in Q4. Taking their sweet time



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 345 ✭✭rounders


    The next design update is due in Feb based on the last conversation I had with the design office



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