M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Cookiemunster

steeler j wrote: »

would the m20 and m21 start together , if the m20 was pressed could it start late 21 to mid 22

The M21 should be before ABP in the next 2-3 months. The M20 is at least 2 years away from going to ABP. There's not a hope it will go to construction before 2023.

marno21

There is a not so unlikely scenario that the M21 will be complete before the M20 starts.

It all depends on how king the M20 planning process takes and what the economy is like in a few years time. It should go ahead as a matter of priority but who knows really

steeler j

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The M21 should be before ABP in the next 2-3 months. The M20 is at least 2 years away from going to ABP. There's not a hope it will go to construction before 2023.

I would have liked for the government to have pushed the m20 more and had it ready for ABP this year or next

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

There is a not so unlikely scenario that the M21 will be complete before the M20 starts.

It all depends on how king the M20 planning process takes and what the economy is like in a few years time. It should go ahead as a matter of priority but who knows really

If I'm not mistaken, M20 has the highest cost/benefit ratio of any road project in the state. The fact that it's progressing behind so many others would be hilarious, if people weren't dying as a result.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken, M20 has the highest cost/benefit ratio of any road project in the state. The fact that it's progressing behind so many others would be hilarious, if people weren't dying as a result.

Dunkettle certainly has a higher benefit:cost, the M28 also I believe and the M7 widening.

The massive capital cost of the M20 reduces the ratio as the other projects are cheaper.

Chris_5339762

I remember reading on here that the Galway City Bypass (or whatever its called now) was the absolute top of the cost:benefit ratio, of all of them.

Limerick74

M20 v M24 argument won't go away. https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-limerick-motorway-a-shocking-waste-of-taxpayers-money-lobby-group-says-913144.html

snotboogie

Limerick74 wrote: »

M20 v M24 argument won't go away. https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-limerick-motorway-a-shocking-waste-of-taxpayers-money-lobby-group-says-913144.html

Interesting that the lobby group are completely ignoring Dunkettle capacity issues and the NRR East

marno21

Limerick74 wrote: »

M20 v M24 argument won't go away. https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-limerick-motorway-a-shocking-waste-of-taxpayers-money-lobby-group-says-913144.html

A NIMBY group. How wonderful.

Peter Walsh, director capital programme at TII, said one of the core objectives of the Cork-Limerick scheme is to address the deficiencies of the existing N20. Thats not possible with a mythical eastern routing

Of course, the outright lie in there that an eastern route was not looked at the last time shows the level of homework these individuals have done

neddynasty

Limerick74 wrote: »

M20 v M24 argument won't go away. https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-limerick-motorway-a-shocking-waste-of-taxpayers-money-lobby-group-says-913144.html

"Mr Hyde's group represented landowners and businesses who were affected by the building of the M20 at an oral hearing into its construction held by An Bord Pleanála some years ago."

No surprise why they're advocating an M24 instead.

hans aus dtschl

It's frustrating but not necessarily a bad thing that this idea comes up again, even if it is just noise: I just think that the rebuttal to this concept should be well publicised as part of the M20 design.

Here's the previous rendition of this article:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/alternative-cork-limerick-motorway-route-would-save-euro250m-hearing-told-125624.html

Anyone have the results of this oral hearing handy, to forward to the rags?

Also, I googled the gentleman concerned and without getting into detail, he has business interests in Mallow, so I don't think that his business motives would be in line with preventing an M20 upgrade. I hope that's OK to say on here.

steeler j

Limerick74 wrote: »

M20 v M24 argument won't go away. https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/cork-limerick-motorway-a-shocking-waste-of-taxpayers-money-lobby-group-says-913144.html

it would be a terrible idea ,it would do nothing for the towns along the n20 ,they would still have to use the n20 to travel from Cork to Limerick

niloc1951

steeler j wrote: »

it would be a terrible idea ,it would do nothing for the towns along the n20 ,they would still have to use the n20 to travel from Cork to Limerick

People from the towns along the N20 would not be travelling 'from Cork to Limerick', they would only be travelling to a neighbouring town or to Cork or to Limerick.
The removal of inter-city traffic to the M'way could bring the N20 AADT down to within its limits, particularly if TII addressed the current local deficiencies. As has been said the savings from providing a Cahir - Limerick route would go a long way to sorting them.
And, it would be a start to providing a Motorway corridor along the rest of the existing N24 route servicing Clonmel and Carrick-on Suir and provide a continuous motorway link between our 3rd. 4th. & 5th. cities.

prunudo

No, just no. Look at the M17, perfect example of people using the old road over the new good quality but longer distance motorway (to commute Tuam to Galway)
Like the Metrolink shenanigans why can't we just do things properly in this country. Build the M20 and be done with it.

AugustusMinimus

Shocking idea. Let the M17 and M18 be the lesson.

Isambard

niloc1951 wrote: »

People from the towns along the N20 would not be travelling 'from Cork to Limerick', they would only be travelling to a neighbouring town or to Cork or to Limerick.
The removal of inter-city traffic to the M'way could bring the N20 AADT down to within its limits, particularly if TII addressed the current local deficiencies. As has been said the savings from providing a Cahir - Limerick route would go a long way to sorting them.
And, it would be a start to providing a Motorway corridor along the rest of the existing N24 route servicing Clonmel and Carrick-on Suir and provide a continuous motorway link between our 3rd. 4th. & 5th. cities.

it's a nonsense idea . The people of North Co Cork deserve better having been at the end of the queue for years.

Most traffic on the N20 is from intermediate towns, to either Cork or Limerick and vice versa.

If you don't build the M20, you'd still need to bypass the bad bits of the N20 otherwise people will continue to die on that route.

The route via Cahir is especially a non starter as it would add untold km to the journey. Even the alternative of going from Mitchelstown to Limerick is not a vaible solution. Most people would continue to use the N20 for the inter city journey.

I'm sick of people promoting their favoured route as it would advance the upgrading of their particular commute.

hans aus dtschl

Also, the Dunkettle interchange (and particularly the tunnel) can't cope with that extra inter-city traffic. It would be gridlock, and people would continue to use the N20.

pajoguy

Brian Hyde got an airing on Newstalk Breakfast this morning. It was a farcical interview. basically gave him a free run and the only question put to him was the difference in km between the 2 routes which is 9km and would save 350million. Shane Coleman thinks its a very interesting idea!!!:rolleyes:
He mentioned that ABP would have refused the M20 in 2011 but I cant recall how he came to that conclusion. Some independent guy. sorry for the sketchy details i was stuck in traffic at the time!

neddynasty

pajoguy wrote: »

Brian Hyde got an airing on Newstalk Breakfast this morning. It was a farcical interview. basically gave him a free run and the only question put to him was the difference in km between the 2 routes which is 9km and would save 350million. Shane Coleman thinks its a very interesting idea!!!:rolleyes:
He mentioned that ABP would have refused the M20 in 2011 but I cant recall how he came to that conclusion. Some independent guy. sorry for the sketchy details i was stuck in traffic at the time!

I heard it. It was complete BS. I doubt Shane Coleman has ever driven the N20. I shouted at the radio.

prunudo

Newstalk seem to be giving airtime to these crayon planners for various projects lately. If they think they're providing a balanced argument, they couldn't be further from the truth.

neddynasty

niloc1951 wrote: »

People from the towns along the N20 would not be travelling 'from Cork to Limerick', they would only be travelling to a neighbouring town or to Cork or to Limerick.
The removal of inter-city traffic to the M'way could bring the N20 AADT down to within its limits, particularly if TII addressed the current local deficiencies. As has been said the savings from providing a Cahir - Limerick route would go a long way to sorting them.
And, it would be a start to providing a Motorway corridor along the rest of the existing N24 route servicing Clonmel and Carrick-on Suir and provide a continuous motorway link between our 3rd. 4th. & 5th. cities.

This post confuses me. So you're saying the M20 would mainly be serving people from towns (Mallow, Buttevant, Charleville) along it's route so it's not really what the M20 is intended for. Alternatively you're advocating building the M24 which would serve Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir i.e. people from towns along it's route

niloc1951

neddynasty wrote: »

This post confuses me. So you're saying the M20 would mainly be serving people from towns (Mallow, Buttevant, Charleville) along it's route so it's not really what the M20 is intended for. Alternatively you're advocating building the M24 which would serve Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir i.e. people from towns along it's route

No, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm suggesting leave the N20, with some upgrades as an inter-town route and shift the intercity (Cork - Limerick/Galway) traffic to a M8/M24 route via Cahir.

When the JLT roundabout is changed to a proper free flow intersection, which btw it should have been in the original design, it shouldn't present issues to traffic from the N40 and M28 heading for Limerick/Galway. Remember the proposed northern (N22/N40 to M8) route from Ballincollig to the M8 around Cork is still light years away.
As said in my OP, a continuation of a Limerick - Cahir motorway onwards to Waterford makes some sense as it would provide a direct route to Rosslare from the west and reliever commercial traffic from having to negotiate the congestion on the M50 and be able to access the shortest sea crossing to mainland Europe

hans aus dtschl

niloc1951 wrote: »

When the JLT roundabout is changed to a proper free flow intersection, which btw it should have been in the original design, it shouldn't present issues to traffic from the N40 and M28 heading for Limerick/Galway.

Just to recap, in your dreamworld scenario, the N40 isn't already so overloaded at Douglas that Ballincollig-Limerick traffic would find it easier to use it than the N20.

I feel like we're just one step above advocating for a Tralee to Listowel motorway for the Cork Limerick traffic here.

The N40 north won't be finished. But the South and West traffic will still find it easier to go via Blarney than via Cahir. Even with the current appalling N20, we're talking about 40km (almost 40%) extra drive.

marno21

Lads this ****e again.. really

It was found in 2007/08 that routing via Mitchelstown or Cahir was a non runner because the proposed traffic volumes would not merit the construction of a motorway for the traffic that would use it. Cahir is a different story because traffic volumes including N24 would merit it, but it's too much of a diversion for Cork-Limerick traffic distance wise. Building that over an N20 would require the following

* Dualling Cork-Mallow for the traffic using that route
* A proper bypass of Mallow which would include a high level crossing of the River Blackwater
* Bypasses of Charleville and Buttevant
* Dualling of Patrickswell-Croom
* Significant realignment of the poor road including realignments at Anhid near Croom, the Ballybeg bends, the Lisballyhea-Buttevant section

It's a total non runner because the combined cost of an M513/M24 + all the above would far exceed the cost of an M20

In addition to loading more traffic into an already constrained Dunkettle Interchange

Crayons are great and everything but transport planning using crayons is not effective in the real world.

hans aus dtschl

"Is there anything to be said for another Limerick-Waterford route..."

A2LUE42

hans aus dtschl wrote:

I feel like we're just one step above advocating for a Tralee to Listowel motorway for the Cork Limerick traffic here.

Christ, I'd be afraid to even joke about that at this stage for fear some 'lobby group' latches on to the idea.

Cork Trucker

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

"Is there anything to be said for another Limerick-Waterford route..."

Hello Fr Beeching, i thought this was the Fr Ted thread for a minute.

Honestly though, who here would use the M20 if it diverted of the M8? I for one wouldn't, i'd still use the N20. It's the most stupid suggestion i've heard on this proposal, and not for the first time either.

hans aus dtschl

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Honestly though, who here would use the M20 if it diverted of the M8? I for one wouldn't, i'd still use the N20. It's the most stupid suggestion i've heard on this proposal, and not for the first time either.

I frequently start/end my journey in East Cork.
This is the best-case scenario for a Cork-M8-Limerick journey, starting outside the city, on or near the M8. I use M8-R513. I don't ever use the N24.

It's something like 30km extra, so even if it was 120kmh it'd still be a close-run thing time-wise between the two and you still have the 30km extra fuel cost.

So that's for the minority of Cork users who this route would suit most.
It gets worse for people anywhere in the city itself, or NW or W of the city.

Isambard

niloc1951 wrote: »

No, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm suggesting leave the N20, with some upgrades as an inter-town route and shift the intercity (Cork - Limerick/Galway) traffic to a M8/M24 route via Cahir.

When the JLT roundabout is changed to a proper free flow intersection, which btw it should have been in the original design, it shouldn't present issues to traffic from the N40 and M28 heading for Limerick/Galway. Remember the proposed northern (N22/N40 to M8) route from Ballincollig to the M8 around Cork is still light years away.
As said in my OP, a continuation of a Limerick - Cahir motorway onwards to Waterford makes some sense as it would provide a direct route to Rosslare from the west and reliever commercial traffic from having to negotiate the congestion on the M50 and be able to access the shortest sea crossing to mainland Europe

I think it may not have been your intention, but you did say that Mallow Buttevant and Charleville don't warrant a Motorway, but Clonmel and Carrick on Suir do.

steeler j

niloc1951 wrote: »

People from the towns along the N20 would not be travelling 'from Cork to Limerick', they would only be travelling to a neighbouring town or to Cork or to Limerick.
The removal of inter-city traffic to the M'way could bring the N20 AADT down to within its limits, particularly if TII addressed the current local deficiencies. As has been said the savings from providing a Cahir - Limerick route would go a long way to sorting them.
And, it would be a start to providing a Motorway corridor along the rest of the existing N24 route servicing Clonmel and Carrick-on Suir and provide a continuous motorway link between our 3rd. 4th. & 5th. cities.

so people in mallow never travel to Limerick or people in croom travel to Cork