Computer Application Students!

Stev_o

Guys im thinking CA as my 1st choice for a Computer course on my CAO (undecided about Trinity and UCD). Can anyone tell if its a good course with advantages over the others? Cheers

Nanaki

Seemingly the biggest difference between the course in dcu and any computer science course elsewhere, was the practical application of theory covered.
From what I can tell, this course offers alot more labs etc, where you put the theory learned into use.
For me, dcu was my favourite campus out of all the colleges I went to, which greatly influenced my choice too

ironictoaster

Can someone tell about the infamous maths side to CA. I remember at the open day that the lecturer seemed he didn't want to talk about it...

Dr. Michael Clancy teaches maths in first year CA. He's a lunatic. Clearly very intelligent and knowledgeable but he cannot teach with much aptitude. This is a serious problem as many people, including myself, got into CA with only ordinary level maths for the Leaving Cert. A huge number of people fail maths in first year.

I only passed because of compensation and an extenuating circumstances form.

Computer Applications is different from other computer science / software engineering courses as DCU is very practical and business-oriented and they incorporate this into CA through INTRA. If you're into this kind of stuff (I am not, however), it'll probably suit you.

CA is basically a "how to make money from computers" course. Much of it is about getting into "the industry", not just learning.

Will

Clancy isn't a teacher, he is a lecturer. Huge difference.

I'd huge trouble with maths also but in final year now so it's very doable if ya put in the effort

Will

Will wrote: »

Clancy isn't a teacher, he is a lecturer.

There isn't much of a difference. Teachers are more personal in their education as they will often engage students one-on-one, have much smaller classes and communication is often two-way. However, lecturers, like teachers, are expected to clearly present the material required for a student to learn and pass the module. If the notes provided don't explain something in a manner that anyone can follow, and the lectures themselves do more to confuse than educate, the lecturer is doing a poor job.

Saying it's easy if you "put in the effort" is all well and good except when it comes to people who genuinely struggle and who aren't just lazy.

Stev_o

Cheers lads this info really helps me alot!

cognos

Deleted User wrote: »

CA is basically a "how to make money from computers" course. Much of it is about getting into "the industry", not just learning.

This isn't the case. I don't recall a single element of the course other than the work placement that you could consider as being about "getting into the industry". Even the work placement placement was more about reinforcing topics that have been learnt and learning new things.

CA is really for people that want to be really good programmers, partially through having a good understanding of computer science topics and software engineering principles. They are terrible at telling people this in their prospectus / open days and other outlets though, I'm not sure they even know themselves that this is what the course is - they might have a better name for it if they did.

Carri

CA == You're doing it right.

EC == You're doing it wrong..

That is all.

cognos

cognos wrote: »

This isn't the case. I don't recall a single element of the course other than the work placement that you could consider as being about "getting into the industry". Even the work placement placement was more about reinforcing topics that have been learnt and learning new things.

The Information Systems stream existed for a reason. This was to appeal to the business types who want to spend the rest of their lives making money from using Microsoft Excel. This is now Enterprise Computing. A lot of CA is about getting into the industry and many a student, graduate and lecturer have admitted this. Very few people, especially in the current fourth year, actually have a passion for programming. They are able to memorise notes and do well in exams but couldn't even build a computer themselves. Much of it is about earning money.

CA is really for people that want to be really good programmers, partially through having a good understanding of computer science topics and software engineering principles. They are terrible at telling people this in their prospectus / open days and other outlets though, I'm not sure they even know themselves that this is what the course is - they might have a better name for it if they did.

They specifically say that no prior knowledge of programming is required for the course - only an interest in computing or computer games... :pac: No wonder there's such a horrendous dropout rate.

From this year on, the "new" CA includes the Business Game module, whose sole purpose is to prepare people for employment by techy companies.

robby^5

Carri wrote: »

CA == You're doing it right.

EC == You're doing it wrong..

That is all.

Any freshers interested in CA or EC do not listen to silly opinions like this one.

While both courses do share some common modules, they are not the same degree and EC has only been running for one semester so no one (especially not a first year) can comment on it as a course comprehensively.

The only major difference between the two in first year is that CA will do more java programming in semester two (because it is a software engineering degree afterall) while EC will start web programming. All other modules are shared in semester two.

Comparing both courses is rather futile since at the end of 4 years CA and EC students will have different degrees and different job opportunities. If you're interested in computing you need to look at what each course has to offer and decide which best suits you and what you're looking for.

Attol

Deleted User wrote: »

From this year on, the "new" CA includes the Business Game module, whose sole purpose is to prepare people for employment by techy companies.

Not really...

It's to give a basic level of business skills to students and is about the same level, if not a little below, to that of the Leaving Cert business course imo. You basically learn what it means to be in a team, what it means to be a manager and then you pretend to run a business for a few weeks and make financial and ethcial decisions that will determine how successful your company is in the market. The module is called "Management/Business Game" and it focuses more on the management side of business.

Anarking

Both streams are the same thing except the horrid little mongoloids tend to drift towards SE or whatever the new equivilent is.

robby^5

Anarking wrote: »

Both streams are the same thing except the horrid little mongoloids tend to drift towards SE or whatever the new equivilent is.

CA is now basically SE and EC would be the equivalent of IS.

H2G2

robby^5 wrote: »

CA is now basically SE and EC would be the equivalent of IS.

I don't think that is fair to say. EC is very different in years 2 and 4 to CAIS, plus EC has a 12 month Intra.

camroc

Deleted User wrote: »

The Information Systems stream existed for a reason. This was to appeal to the business types who want to spend the rest of their lives making money from using Microsoft Excel. This is now Enterprise Computing. A lot of CA is about getting into the industry and many a student, graduate and lecturer have admitted this. Very few people, especially in the current fourth year, actually have a passion for programming. They are able to memorise notes and do well in exams but couldn't even build a computer themselves. Much of it is about earning money.

Right, so IS has a heavy leaning towards business, this does not make CA a "how to make money from computers course". Like Cognos said above, SE and I would imagine the "new CA" are not very business focused. SE is designed to turn out modern software developers as opposed to more traditional computer science degrees which involve a lot of theory, much of which is not neccesary to know outside of academia.

As to the current fourth years, are you suggesting that they are not capable programmers? In order to make it to fourth year you have to complete a third year project. It is difficult to pass such a project if all you can do is "memorise notes".

Deleted User wrote: »

They specifically say that no prior knowledge of programming is required for the course - only an interest in computing or computer games... :pac: No wonder there's such a horrendous dropout rate.

From this year on, the "new" CA includes the Business Game module, whose sole purpose is to prepare people for employment by techy companies.

I agree with you that they probably shouldn't make the course sound so easy, but I didn't have any prior programming experience and I've made to fourth year (and so have many others like me), so evidently it's not necessary.

robby^5

H2G2 wrote: »

I don't think that is fair to say. EC is very different in years 2 and 4 to CAIS, plus EC has a 12 month Intra.

I said it was the equivalent of what IS was, this is true.

Computing courses can differ immensely but still offer the same learning experience and EC offers what IS did, but now as a standalone degree from year 1 not year 2. You only have to read the aims of both courses to see the obvious similarities. DCU wouldn't just scarp IS and not have something to replace it, this is the whole idea behind making CA and EC (or SE and IS if you will) two different degrees, instead of two different streams.

Also EC doesn't have a 12 month INTRA, we have IT Service Management in semester one of 3rd year. EC's INTRA will presumably be 6 months like CA, unless you can show me otherwise.

H2G2

robby^5 wrote:

Also EC doesn't have a 12 month INTRA, we have IT Service Management in semester one of 3rd year. EC's INTRA will presumably be 6 months like CA, unless you can show me otherwise.

Yes it does have 12 months INTRA.
CA328 (IT Service Management) is a part-time block release module which will run over both semester 1 and semester 2. Its worth 10 credits and is 100% continuous assessment. So EC’s will be out on INTRA for all (12 months) of 3rd year, except for occasional attendance – about one day per month (over semester 1 & 2) – for CA328, whereas CA’s do not go out on INTRA until after CA3 project (CA326) demonstrations have been completed, ie. start of April each year. This point re INTRA and CA326 was made very clear during the orientation presentation during orientation week.

robby^5

pfft I wasn't at orientation (been there, done that), but that's pretty cool looking forward to that now.

cognos

Deleted User wrote: »

Very few people, especially in the current fourth year, actually have a passion for programming.

True

Deleted User wrote: »

They are able to memorise notes and do well in exams

True

Deleted User wrote: »

but couldn't even build a computer themselves.

Dont think the abilitiy to build a computer has much relevance

Deleted User wrote: »

Much of it is about earning money.

Its not like they teach you techniques in money earning or how to pretend to know about IT so you can scam your way into a cosy little earner in a big company?! Most people will want a job after their degree though, they don't just try to give you stuff to enable you to program away for fun in your mom's basement for the rest of the life, they have to try to help you exist in the real world where programs are made for customers in exchange for money.

Deleted User wrote: »

They specifically say that no prior knowledge of programming is required for the course - only an interest in computing or computer games... :pac: No wonder there's such a horrendous dropout rate.

Yeah they are trying to sell a course they don't have - they have a potentially good software engineering/programming/comp science degree in what they call CA but they are dumbing it down when trying to sell it to the kids. It should require a high proficiency in computing and an existing interest in programming.

Deleted User wrote: »

From this year on, the "new" CA includes the Business Game module, whose sole purpose is to prepare people for employment by techy companies.

I didn't do business game (it was in IS2 in my day) but I think I would have liked it, I really liked marketing in first year too. I think a couple of business modules as options are a really good idea, theres tonnes of people, myself included, that are mad for programming and also want to make lots and lots and lots of money.

the butcher

There are merits in both CA (CASE) and now EC (CAIS). If you want a good grounding of IT and IT/business aspects go do EC. If your in any IT company you will realise its not just programming programming programming. Theres business analysts, project managers, dbas, testers etc. Finished CAIS last year and now employed as a developer/dba.

I think in this climate you have to be a jack of all trades and my personal opinion is EC will do this for you. If you soley want to be a code monkey for the rest of your life, do CA (CASE).

Intra is a great advantage to have when entering the workforce. Equipped with a more rounded CV in some type of IT related job during those 6months will help some students realise what actually goes on in companies.

BlackWizard

Unfotunately I was in the same class as the butcher . The degree is geared towards IT in general not just programming as thebutcher was saying. Some roles I know I never heard of or knew nothing about before I got out of colege: Project Management, Busienss Analyst, Support Analyst, Software Engineer, Web Developer, Technical Writer, IT sales, IT Mangement, IT support, Database Administrator, IT Trainor, IT Consultant, IT Presales Consultant, Network Engineer, IT Security, IT Recruitment... etc etc

Right now Im a Software Developer but I deal alot with software specification, UI design, creating code framworks/Libraries for the code monkeys, setting code standards etc etc So I'm diving head first into programming at the moment but I've no problem meeting clients and consulting (selling ) . Eventually I'm looking to go into PM coordination and mangement. PMI here I come!.. eventually.

But I was never interested in just programming. I've no real particular interest in any part of IT. I just like the IT field. If you feel like this then maybe you should consider EC. Because there are LOTS of IT careers out there and doing EC will really open them up for you. Or you could end up like me or thebutcher, doing general software/database development work. Which is not bad at all

P.S It doesnt really mater what degree you have. There are no jobs. Recession is an equal opportunties employer, doesn't take into account degrees or experience.

Smellyirishman

And I was with these two aswel (only in the SE/CA stream)...

The Butcher wrote:

If you soley want to be a code monkey for the rest of your life, do CA (CASE).

BlackWizard wrote: »

But I was never interested in just programming. I've no real particular interest in any part of IT. I just like the IT field. If you feel like this then maybe you should consider EC. Because there are LOTS of IT careers out there and doing EC will really open them up for you.

Don't you think it's ironic that despite listing all these other jobs... you're both in coding? :pac:

There are a lot of different fields out there as you have both pointed out but when you first start out, most of them won't be available to your standard wet behind the ears graduate.

My advice would be to go for the course you're most interested in, the one you can see yourself enjoying (as best you can), sticking to and most importantly, completing. The vast majority of these jobs will be open to you (in time) regardless of which stream you pick as long as you're willing to apply yourself, to learn, and to adapt. Sure, you might come out of EC slightly more "well-rounded" or you might come out of CA a "Code monkey" but that doesn't determine the next 40 years of your life.

paddyb125

I was in 1st year of CA up until two weeks ago, just couldn't hack it and in my opinion neither could around 70-80% of the people in there.

BlackWizard

Smellyirishman wrote: »

Don't you think it's ironic that despite listing all these other jobs... you're both in coding? :pac:

Ah yeah sure a bit of healthy coding never hurt anyone... *shakes fist at the recession*

Although i agree with your post, you did do SE so that makes you wrong. :cool: Do the right thing, do EC kidds!

ironictoaster

I have EC ahead of CA on my cao. CA sounds frightening...

Attol

I'm a first year CA and have to say, it's not frightening. I'm enjoying the course. I think a major problem is that people haven't researched what CA actually is before doing the course.

Just out of curiousity paddyb125, what aspect of the course did you struggle with?

paddyb125

Basically everything except web and most programming, I just couldn't see myself doing programming for the rest of my life. You're right though most people don't research it enough.

ironictoaster

Yeah I know, I reckon alot when people when hear Computer Applications they think "ooh computers! I love going on bebo"

I know a few graduates of CA from DCU, so I'm getting a lot of info about it. Plus, there's a computer programming club in my school!

sock puppet

There seem to be a lot of conflicting opinions on this thread. I'm leaning more towards CA but is it really true that most people in the course have no interest in it and it's dumbed down? How is it different from other colleges or are they more similar now that the 2 subjects have been separated?