Which way will you vote (if at all)

sink

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Now, did I say the site was perfect?

Maybe, you should read the rest of it with a slightly less slanted mind and then make an proper judgement!

Regards!

Well it is a very simple well know fact by anybody who has a clue about Europe and European politics. It would be the equivalent of an American thinking we're part of Britain. The fact that they got this wrong shows that don't have a clue, not a single clue!!! I read the rest of the site briefly and it's full of absolute crap just like this. I'm not going to go through it all and refute each part individually because frankly I'm sick of doing similar to other posts/sites and it's not worth the effort. All their claims I have conclusively refuted elsewhere on this board.

is_that_so

A Stong yes. Some things are bigger than the pettiness and completely unfounded mistruths that have been peddled as "fact" by the No campaign. The treaty in my view is essential for Europe and its evolution;an evolution I strongly believe we should be part of. Whatever way you vote inform yourself on the facts.

AtomicHorror

muincav wrote: »

Im voting a definite NO!
one reason for me voting NO is, that I have the FREEDOM to vote no, and I dont have to be told by all the political crooks in this country how I should vote.
If you all remember they have told us how to vote before (Nice treaty) and when we didnt comply to our allmighty rulers wishes, we had to do it all again...me thinks,,,,Mugabe and Zimbabwe..or am I the only one?

You're probably not the only one, but you are completely wrong. There are some pretty dubious tactics being employed on both sides of this referendum but to compare either of them to a fascist dictator who employs murder, violence, incarceration and intimidation as means to retain power is to severely lose the plot. Get some perspective.

As for all the "political crooks" as you call them- it's not just the government who are supporting this, it's the opposition too. Perhaps crooks too, but that does not relate to this treaty, it relates to general elections. And while I am constantly disappointed to see Fianna Fail re-elected time and again, I agree with their support of this treaty.

muincav

is_that_so wrote: »

A Stong yes. Some things are bigger than the pettiness and completely unfounded mistruths that have been peddled as "fact" by the No campaign. The treaty in my view is essential for Europe and its evolution;an evolution I strongly believe we should be part of. Whatever way you vote inform yourself on the facts.

Are you just following the party line or have you been totally brainwashed in to thinking this is good for Ireland....you should check out those "mistruths" again and maybe YOU will come across a few facts!

AtomicHorror

nag wrote: »

The reason it was passed was because when they revamped the EU Constitution into the Lisbon Treaty, they didn't put it to a second referendum. Instead, their parliament ratified it, bi-passing the people. How on earth can you call that democracy?

I can call it democracy because the governments that ratified the treaty were democratically elected. Does the Irish government, an unusually referendum-heavy example of democracy, put every decision to the people? Does that lack of consultation in itself deprive us of our democracy?

BlitzKrieg

Are you just following the party line or have you been totally brainwashed in to thinking this is good for Ireland....you should check out those "mistruths" again and maybe YOU will come across a few facts!

these *facts* that have been shot down again and again and again and again?


what I find funny is that you keep throwing the *following the party line* or *brainwashed* arguments yet it seems the people who always rip down these *facts* are the only ones who seem to actually know the treaty? Or the EU for that matter, or hell even our own constitution.

AtomicHorror

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Well there's certainly a tint of dictatorship concerning EU politicians IMO!

One reason why I'm voting NO!

Regards!

Tints? What colour is dictatorship? It'd be a good marker to watch out for in the future. The capacity of the EU to slide into continent-wide dictatorship is limited by so many factors it's barely worth discussing. What baring it has on Lisbon is anyone's guess.

is_that_so

muincav wrote: »

Are you just following the party line or have you been totally brainwashed in to thinking this is good for Ireland....you should check out those "mistruths" again and maybe YOU will come across a few facts!

I respect your position to vote No, even though you feel the need to harangue me into agreeing with you. Please respect mine.

muincav

AtomicHorror wrote: »

You're probably not the only one, but you are completely wrong. There are some pretty dubious tactics being employed on both sides of this referendum but to compare either of them to a fascist dictator who employs murder, violence, incarceration and intimidation as means to retain power is to severely lose the plot. Get some perspective.

As for all the "political crooks" as you call them- it's not just the government who are supporting this, it's the opposition too. Perhaps crooks too, but that does not relate to this treaty, it relates to general elections. And while I am constantly disappointed to see Fianna Fail re-elected time and again, I agree with their support of this treaty.

I know Fine Gael and the other opposition partie are not hectic, but are the not Politicians as in "political crooks"?......Im sure a few of them have been to a Man utd match or 2!
and as for a dictator like Mugabe, he was actually welcomed with open arms in this country back in 1983 or 1984....so he must of had something in commom with our so called Politicians sometime!

AckwelFoley

it has taken me months to make a decision but i am very much on the YES side.

The lies and outright manipulation of the facts by the No camaign is laughable.

Yes is for a better working europe whis IS a "better deal for Ireland"

Just ask yourselves what are the real motives by each orgaisation promoting a no vote, and you will find none of them if any have a genuine interest what is in the best interest of this country and its economy.

Refute my post all you want i wont be replying. Ive heard all the arguements the No side come up with.. they lack substance.

kippy

For a start I'll definetly be voting. Havent missed a vote since I turned 18.
I'll be voting yes to this one. I really dont see what the issue is with a Yes vote. No one has convinced me that its a bad thing to vote no. Haveing read the majority of the treaty and the majority of the breakdowns of it, I am confident myself that I am happy with the treaty.
The EU has done a lot for us, without it God knows where we'd be right now. This treat allows the EU to run better with more member states.
I hope people do vote and have their say on this either way. Its important to make your vote count.
It would be ironic if people who advise that we would be loosing our voting power in Europe if this treaty pass dont actually vote.
Kippy

mikemac

Irish and Proud wrote: »

OK! Pádraig Pearse!

Are you happy now??? :mad:

Regards!

Never heard of him either.
To be pedantic, the man was fluent in Irish and English and would never have used an Irish first name and an English surname

Patrick Pearse, P H Pearse and Pádraig Anraí Mac Piarais are all acceptable.
Pádraig Pearse is not.

Yes, it's a pedantic point and one that most people don't know. I learned it Talking History radio show.

Rb

Why do people feel the need to debate the treaty here? There's a load of other threads on the exact same thing going on various fora here, why not let people say how they're voting and why (if they want) and let them have their opinion? Why the constant need to debate it in every single little thread started on the treaty? If someone posted asking what kind of paper the treaty is written on, I can guarantee the same shít would happen.

AtomicHorror

malice_ wrote: »

I'm voting No basically as a Fuck You to the government. I thought they would have learnt after the first Nice treaty that you can't just basically say to the general public "Vote Yes Because We Tell You To". If questioned it essentially amounts to "It's Good For You To Vote Yes".

The thing is though, I imagine that it will go through one way or another irrespective of how Ireland votes on it.

It'll be a "f*** you" to the opposition too. The government support the treaty but voting no does not weaken them here one bit. All it does is get Europe caught in the crossfire of your dissatisfaction. If you actually want to say that to the government, vote them out of power. I plan to be right there with you in that. Or better still, ring Mary Harney and tell her in person (probably won't help with that actually).

AtomicHorror

Rb wrote: »

Why do people feel the need to debate the treaty here? There's a load of other threads on the exact same thing going on various fora here, why not let people say how they're voting and why (if they want) and let them have their opinion? Why the constant need to debate it in every single little thread started on the treaty?

Aside from that being an exaggeration, we could conversely ask why you would rather people did not widely debate such a significant and relevant topic?

Rb

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Aside from that being an exaggeration, we could conversely ask why you would rather people did not widely debate such a significant and relevant topic?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=2106938

Look how many threads there are already on this to "debate" the facts about it, why does the same shíte have to be spouted in literally every thread that's started with the word "Lisbon" in the title?

AtomicHorror

muincav wrote: »

and as for a dictator like Mugabe, he was actually welcomed with open arms in this country back in 1983 or 1984....so he must of had something in commom with our so called Politicians sometime!

I'm not sure your insinuations could be any more vague. As previously stated by many others, if you don't like the government, vote them out of power. General elections and referendums are not the same thing.

muincav

Lets say that it turns out to be a No vote that comes out on top....will we be asked to vote again? or will anyone (except the yes camp) want to vote again as in the Nice treaty....because we will all know that result! I am serious about this, if that happens again I will never vote again...I will accept a yes vote if it happens as that would be the democratic way..

LolaDub

Rb wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=2106938

Look how many threads there are already on this to "debate" the facts about it, why does the same shíte have to be spouted in literally every thread that's started with the word "Lisbon" in the title?

Ha ha ha ha brilliant!!!

I'll be voting no, i think there's too many questions that haven't been answered by Europe and i definitely think something better could be negociated for Ireland. Its a good treaty for Europe but i don't think its great for Ireland. I think the yes campaign slogan good for Europe and good for Ireland is a bit silly, we're obviously voting for whats good for Ireland!

muincav

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I'm not sure your insinuations could be any more vague. As previously stated by many others, if you don't like the government, vote them out of power. General elections and referendums are not the same thing.

you seem like an intelligent person-so you figure it out-you seem to have everyone else figured out on this thread!

AtomicHorror

Rb wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?searchid=2106938

Look how many threads there are already on this to "debate" the facts about it, why does the same shíte have to be spouted in literally every thread that's started with the word "Lisbon" in the title?

Because many different communities, as indicated by diverse forums, wish to discuss the Treaty under different contexts and with different people. You gonna do a search on Google for all the other message boards discussing it outside of Boards? It'll all be over in a few days, relax.

is_that_so

muincav wrote: »

Lets say that it turns out to be a No vote that comes out on top....will we be asked to vote again? or will anyone (except the yes camp) want to vote again as in the Nice treaty....because we will all know that result! I am serious about this, if that happens again I will never vote again...I will accept a yes vote if it happens as that would be the democratic way..

Have a look at this thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055284592
It is the one big unknown. No one can say for sure.

muincav

is_that_so wrote: »

Have a look at this thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055284592
It is the one big unknown. No one can say for sure.

I cant start on that thread as well, or I will have nightmares.....sorry..lol
Feck it lads its time to call it a night....

Tackleberry.

TBA.. would you sign a blank cheque .Lisbon is still open in so many areas i'll be voting NO, also i don't fancy being called a state and no longer the country of Ireland, small thing but it ment so much to many.

KnifeWRENCH

I'm still very much undecided (first time voting in anything so I want to get it right! )
I've been leaning slightly towards "No" but I'm gonna a lot more before I make my final decision.

Agent Smith

square_igloo wrote: »

I'm still very much undecided (first time voting in anything so I want to get it right! )
I've been leaning slightly towards "No" but I'm gonna a lot more before I make my final decision.

its not a matter of getting it right. its voting for what you believe in.

Rock Climber

I'll be voting yes.
I haven't seen a no argument yet in this forum stand up to an examination by the poster scofflaw.
It's a no brainer really.

If anyone here is seriously thinking of voting no,I'd suggest having a read of his interactions with the various no voters here.

You can do this by going through a search of his posts here .

I wouldn't say this , if I wasn't very impressed and entirely confident that they are all a good read.
I'm quite shocked at times too with the sheer quackyness of some of the stuff he has had to reply to.

Fair play and thumbs up from me.

sink

Agent Smith wrote: »

its not a matter of getting it right. its voting for what you believe in.

Well if he's a new voter he probably doesn't know what he believes yet. I voted wrong in my first election because I hadn't made up my mind about what I believed in.

Cionád

I'm voting No cause Jim Corr said that... oh wait, no, i'm voting Yes

For many reasons, i've read the treaty and made my mind up.

Jean Marie Le Pen wants a no vote apparently lol

Cionád

sink wrote: »

Well if he's a new voter he probably doesn't know what he believes yet. I voted wrong in my first election because I hadn't made up my mind about what I believed in.

lol, well this time it's a yes / no choice so it's 50/50 whether or not he gets it right I like those odds!!

sink

Rock Climber wrote: »

If anyone here is seriously thinking of voting no,I'd suggest having a read of his interactions with the various no voters here.

You can do this by going through a search of his posts here .

That link is not working try this one.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?do=finduser&u=59778

BlitzKrieg

I haven't seen a no argument yet in this forum stand up to an examination by the poster scofflaw.

Can I extend that respect to Sink and Oscar Bravo as well, the three of them have done a fantastic job of dividing fact and fiction.

Jack Sheehan

Should there possibly be an option for 'Would vote X but cannot because of Age/other mitigating factor' as distinct from the won't vote option?

Cionád

Cionád wrote: »

Jean Marie Le Pen wants a no vote apparently lol

Yup that extreme right wing man and party has something in common with the extreme left wing Mary Lou and Sinn Féin

Yeah-ya know what it is?

I'm firmly convinced that they both see Europe as a threat because it lessens the chance of their extreme fringe wackiness ideas being implemented.
Ergo they must oppose Lisbon.

I'm voting yes by the way or had I said that already?
I'll second the proposal that Sink,OB and Scofflaws posts be looked at by anyone undecided for the fact that any "no" argument I've read here has not stood up to them.

That says it all really.

Jack Sheehan

It is a little odd that Lisbon has thrown together extreme left and right isn't it?

sink

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

It is a little odd that Lisbon has thrown together extreme left and right isn't it?

It just means that whatever both extremes oppose must be somewhere in the centre.

BlitzKrieg

the thought of extreme left and right mixing makes me very worried...

KnifeWRENCH

Agent Smith wrote: »

its not a matter of getting it right. its voting for what you believe in.

By "right" I mean that I want to vote and be happy with the way I've voted. I don't wanna come out with regrets and think "Maybe I shouldn't have voted that way..."

Sorry, should have been clearer

Call Me Jimmy

muincav wrote: »

Im voting a definite NO!
one reason for me voting NO is, that I have the FREEDOM to vote no, and I dont have to be told by all the political crooks in this country how I should vote.
If you all remember they have told us how to vote before (Nice treaty) and when we didnt comply to our allmighty rulers wishes, we had to do it all again...me thinks,,,,Mugabe and Zimbabwe..or am I the only one?

what the hell is this? Did you not get to rebel as a teenager or something? I can't take this seriously can I?

Voting no because you have the freedom to vote no? How do you manage to do anything without going cross-eyed and falling down?

square_igloo I can confidently tell you that I've voted in more elections and referenda than you could shake a stick at by now [makes me feel old ] and you are not going to be completely regret free with any decision you make vote wise any time.

If we were , there would be no need for elections/referenda at all.

The best you can do is,weigh things up and decide.

Piste

Jabcity wrote: »

Definate No!! Being a part of the "united states of europe" as theyr callin it now is just showin how much we're lettin our cultural identity slip. We already lost our language to the point of near non-existence, the capital is a-wash with multiculturalism its a genuine shock when more than 10 people on the bus speak english! People are probably going to call me narrow minded or racist, but thats what I believe it comes down to, being our own culture and having control on our own country. Its "republic of Ireland" after all, not "Republic of Ireland and Europe"!

The Lisbon Treaty will not make compromise our culture, if you don't want our language to suffer then speak it! Also on that point Irish began dying out long before we entered the EEC.

Culture is something owned by the people which we all have control over, whether the Lisbon Treaty passes or is defeated Irish music will always sound like cats dying, the Polka will always be from Poland, the Italians will always have made the best opera and the French will always pwn at ballet, culture is one area with the Lisbon Treaty is least likely to affect!

AtomicHorror

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

It is a little odd that Lisbon has thrown together extreme left and right isn't it?

Tbh, in Ireland it's primarily somewhat left and a bit right. With some middle. At least in the Yes camp anyway...

Katniss everMean

DeVore wrote: »

This is just for my curiousity and general interest. Please be honest if you are or arent going to vote....

I would vote yes if I where registered >.>

AtomicHorror

Jabcity wrote: »

Definate No!! Being a part of the "united states of europe" as theyr callin it now is just showin how much we're lettin our cultural identity slip. We already lost our language to the point of near non-existence, the capital is a-wash with multiculturalism its a genuine shock when more than 10 people on the bus speak english! People are probably going to call me narrow minded or racist, but thats what I believe it comes down to, being our own culture and having control on our own country. Its "republic of Ireland" after all, not "Republic of Ireland and Europe"!

Do you find Texas culturally indistinct from New York? Federalisation itself cannot kill culture. Culture always reflects the people as they are and as they wish to be. Attempts to destroy it inevitably strengthen it. Aside from this, much of what we consider to be "Irish culture" is relatively new. An expression of a nation's desire to make itself separate and then to find itself once it got its wish. Invented, contrived in some respects, but deeply honest in others.

If we are ever faced with a United European States, I'll welcome it. I'm not afraid of losing our culture, because I'm confident that it will always reflect us. It will inevitably change, but only because we will change.

As for multiculturalism- oh heavens no. Not exposure to other cultures surely? We wouldn't want people getting new ideas, would we?

Shiminay

No option to spoil my vote - feckin E-Voting!!!

AtomicHorror

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

what the hell is this? Did you not get to rebel as a teenager or something? I can't take this seriously can I?

Yes. Fight the power. Whatever the establishment is pushing can't be good. Even if The Man offers you an ice-cream, it's probably some sort of strange Italian ice-cream. Even if it's HB, you don't want it because He wants to to take it! Vote No to "gellato", no to Lisbon and NO to HB.

Am I doing it right?

Call Me Jimmy

Yea you're doing it right, unfortunately you transcribed that guy's exact thought process about the lisbon treaty verbatim.

Winters

I will be voting Yes.

Having read the main arguemtns from both the Yes and No side in debth in the last few weeks and made my way through decent portions of the treaty itself I can wholeheartedly say that I beleve a Yes vote would be of benefit to Ireland and Europe as a hole.

I cannot see us loosing any nationality/culture besides what we as a nation are allready throwing away by adapting foreign (UK/US) culture. None of the No arguements have ever actually stood up under scrutiny, particularly when they have been debated here on boards and relevant facts are presented. A yes from me so.

TelePaul

Yes.

cherryghost

no way