Which way will you vote (if at all)

kowloon

I propose this thread be locked tomorrow night and we can compare it to the real outcome. T'would be interesting.

VoidStarNull

johnnyq wrote: »

Oh dear, hasn't anyone told you that cosmetic changes are not the same as changes in substance.;)

A document which talks, walks and looks like the rejected EU constitution certainly appears like the aformentioned rejected document.

Everyone agrees that it is 96% plus the same.......

Here, I fixed your quote for you

BTW there's a pretty detailed (but plain english) discussion of the treaty on
wikipedia. Includes a description of the differences between Lisbon and the Constitution.

Funnily enough, after rejecting the constitution the French went on to elect Nicholas Sarkozy - a strong supporter of Lisbon - as their president.

Irish and Proud

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Silly catchphrases aside, I'm voting no because the only reliable and half understandable info I could find is the amendment to the Constitution.

Currently if the politicians (them) want to change it they have to ask the electorate (us) to do so.

If the change on Thursday goes through, they will be able to change it without asking us.

Kinda defeats the purpose of having a constitution in the first place!

Anyways, if you don't believe me that's great, go and make up your own mind, the amendment and the Lisbon Treaty are available for download on the Referendum Commission's site.

The Constitution change is easy enough to read, the Treaty is a little bit complicated though...

Yep, I agree!

We are being asked to vote on a constitutional amendment allowing Ireland to ratify God knows what! What people say is the Lisbon Treaty seems to be an interpretation of it - the actual text is said to be virtually unreadable - Why???

I'm voting NO!

Regards!

Irish and Proud

VoidStarNull wrote: »

BTW there's a pretty detailed (but plain english) discussion of the treaty on
wikipedia. Includes a description of the differences between Lisbon and the Constitution.

Funnily enough, after rejecting the constitution the French went on to elect Nicholas Sarkozy - a strong supporter of Lisbon - as their president.

I heard that he promised the French people a referendum in relation to EU reform! Correct me if I'm wrong though!

Regards!

kmart6

Go me....333 no vote:D

PrivateEye

The good thing about not calling it a Constltution is that no one can ask for a referendum on it."

- Giuliano Amato, speech at London School of Economics, 21 February 2007

450 Million people without a vote?
I hope these people are remembered on Thursday

G

HydeRoad wrote: »

I have trawled all the arguments too.

I have not found one single substantial reason for voting yes, other than lots of woolly, ethereal stuff about it being 'better' for Ireland and 'better' for the EU. Better how? Spell it out.

NO.

On the money. I haven't wasted my time trawling all the arguments as I've heard enough at this stage. "Ireland's done well out of Europe..." ... "I believe in Europe..." etc etc.

I believe in Europe too, and we have done very well. But that doesn't mean we bend over a barrel and watch Ireland get shafted.

As far as I'm concerned anybody who votes yes is either fooling themselves or simply doesn't have the common sense to tell the difference. I'm voting no.

Call Me Jimmy

Hmmm but are we not shafting europe by taking the money and running? For example if the other states of the union had taken our attitude we wouldn't have gained so much would we? We wouldn't be in this position...

I dunno it seems immoral and against the spirit of cooperation. Everyone is judging it solely on the what is in it for us, but it's a treaty that updates the way europe works, we still punch above our weight! We can't ask that we get everything our way all the time. Like the guy on prime time was saying, they in spain had 2 commissioners for example and are now willing to sacrifice things like that for the greater good as part of a compromise. Everyone has to compromise for it to work better I think and it seems we, arrogantly are not interested in any sort of compromise.

sink

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Everyone has to compromise for it to work better I think and it seems we, arrogantly are not interested in any sort of compromise.

I think it has to do with the recent boom in our economy. People who have grown up during the good times expect to get their own way all the time. As a society we seem to be getting more and more selfish. I am not basing this purely on the reaction to the Lisbon treaty nor to people on boards, but I see it in my friends (I'm 25) and family as well. I am not trying to get on my high horse, I don't feel any gratification in saying this. It just makes me fear for the future of our society.

muincav

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

what the hell is this? Did you not get to rebel as a teenager or something? I can't take this seriously can I?

Voting no because you have the freedom to vote no? How do you manage to do anything without going cross-eyed and falling down?

If you read the post correctly JAMES I said ONE reason I was voting no was...etc
and when I was young I was more involved in politics than most my age, and then had the sense to get out of it as I was a REBEL and not a fecking crook....

Give me 10 proper good reasons to vote yes from someone not involved in politics and I MAY change my mind, but until then, I have the FREEDOM to vote how I chose and not how some brow-beater tells me!!!!!

Monsoon26

this is mad, I agree with most of these posters, be they yes or no camp !! so close to thursday & I wanted to have my mind made up by now...!!

VoidStarNull

Monsoon26 wrote: »

this is mad, I agree with most of these posters, be they yes or no camp !! so close to thursday & I wanted to have my mind made up by now...!!

Check out the wikipedia page I mentioned earlier:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

It's plain english, and has a concise panel setting out the main changes in the treaty (scroll down to see it). If you're especially interested in any one of them there's also a more detailed section explaining it in full.

As you'll probably see, Lisbon is actually a pretty boring house-keeping exercise. I guess that's why everyone feels free to interpret it whatever way they want

muttsnutts1

Im voting NO to preserve democracy from greedy politicians,Ireland is the only country where true democracy is being tested ,power of the people, they have denied the people of Europe the right to vote.
Remember referenda is VOX Populi, the voice of the people,Why give power to the rich man's club of politicians corrupt or otherwise. Vote no and save democracy and simply if you don't Know then Vote No:rolleyes:

cglanton123

Seriously though which way do ya think the ballot will sway?

muttsnutts1

Looks like a sizable NO, on two other Fora one has the NO at 81% and the other at NO 62% N0. The No campaign won the debate on Monday night at Q&A on RTE, hosted by John Bowman.The threat by the French today gave me 100% resolve to VOTE NO for the sake of Democracy,

sink

muincav wrote: »

Give me 10 proper good reasons to vote yes from someone not involved in politics and I MAY change my mind, but until then, I have the FREEDOM to vote how I chose and not how some brow-beater tells me!!!!!

I am not affiliated with any campaign, nor am I a supporter of any particular party. My 8 top reasons for voting yes are.

1. Increase of power to the European Parliament.

The parliament currently votes on only 80% legislation, the Lisbon Treaty increases this to 95%. The parliament currently only approves 20% of the budget, this will be increased to 100%

2. The commission is slimmed down fairly and all states are represented equally

Under the Nice treaty the commission will be slimmed down in 2009. However the rules are not yet set, Lisbon sets those rules in a manner which gives 100% equality to all states big and small. The larger states originally wanted a permanent commissioner and all the small states would rotate. The Irish delegation got them to agree to agree to a binding system of equality. If the treaty does not pass this is back on the table.

3. Permanent President of the European Council

The current system for President of the European Council rotates between states every six months. The head of government of each state fills the role, this causes the President to push his/her countries agenda often against the will of others. The Lisbon treaty replaces this system with an elected President by the European council for a two and a half year term. The new President will be obligated to do what is best for everyone not just one individual state.

4. The Councils must meet in the open.

At present the European Council and the Council of Ministers meet behind closed doors. This arouses suspicion in the public as they do not get to see how deals are reached. Under the Lisbon treaty the Councils must meet in the open providing valuable transparency.

5. Energy and the Environment become greater EU competencies

Ireland has a minuscule amount of power and influence in these areas. The EU can provide better legislation and act more effectively for our benefit than we can on our own.

6. Greater role for EU peacekeepers

The treaty provides for a greater role for EU militaries to co-operate on UN mandated peacekeeping missions, while guaranteeing our neutrality.

7. Includes charter of human rights

For the first time EU all laws will be based on a charter of rights guaranteeing all EU citizens human rights.

8. Increases co-operation in Justice and Policing

The treaty increases the ability of national police forces and judiciary to combat international crime such as drug smuggling and people trafficking.

edit: just thought of another two

9. The two foreign policy posts are merged into one

The Lisbon creates an new role as the High Representative For Foreign affairs. It merges the two positions of 'High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy' with the 'European Commissioner for External Relations and European Neighbourhood Policy'. This is to provide a coherent and consistent voice for Europe in the international sphere. Currently there are so many people representing the foreign policy of the EU, few governments are clear who to contact in regards to specific areas.

10. Three pillar structure scrapped and merged into one structure

The Lisbon treaty merges the three pillars of the EU into one single organisation. This is designed to improve strategic alignment trough better communications and control and to cut down on costs and bureaucracy by eliminating unnecessary duplicate rolls and reducing staff.

kippy

Online fora are not really a great representation of the voting public in general but the results here and on other fora will be interesting come Friday/Saturday.
I personally thought from the start this would end up as a NO result and still think this.
Kippy

oscarBravo

thebaldsoprano wrote: »

Silly catchphrases aside, I'm voting no because the only reliable and half understandable info I could find is the amendment to the Constitution.

Currently if the politicians (them) want to change it they have to ask the electorate (us) to do so.

If the change on Thursday goes through, they will be able to change it without asking us.

This is completely and utterly untrue.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

We are being asked to vote on a constitutional amendment allowing Ireland to ratify God knows what!

The amendment is absolutely crystal clear on what it allows Ireland to ratify.

What people say is the Lisbon Treaty seems to be an interpretation of it - the actual text is said to be virtually unreadable - Why???

The text of the treaty is written down in black and white. The effect of the treaty on the other treaties is widely available, and has been for some time.

Seriously, of all the things to argue about, the ones that are actually written down in English are not among them.

muincav

sink wrote: »

I am not affiliated with any campaign, nor am I a supporter of any particular party. My 8 top reasons for voting yes are.

1. Increase of power to the European Parliament.

The parliament currently votes on only 80% legislation, the Lisbon Treaty increases this to 95%. The parliament currently only approves 20% of the budget, this will be increased to 100%

2. The commission is slimmed down fairly and all states are represented equally

Under the Nice treaty the commission will be slimmed down in 2009. However the rules are not yet set, Lisbon sets those rules in a manner which gives 100% equality to all states big and small. The larger states originally wanted a permanent commissioner and all the small states would rotate. The Irish delegation got them to agree to agree to a binding system of equality. If the treaty does not pass this is back on the table.

3. Permanent President of the European Council

The current system for President of the European Council rotates between states every six months. The head of government of each state fills the role, this causes the President to push his/her countries agenda often against the will of others. The Lisbon treaty replaces this system with an elected President by the European council for a two and a half year term. The new President will be obligated to do what is best for everyone not just one individual state.

4. The Councils must meet in the open.

At present the European Council and the Council of Ministers meet behind closed doors. This arouses suspicion in the public as they do not get to see how deals are reached. Under the Lisbon treaty the Councils must meet in the open providing valuable transparency.

5. Energy and the Environment become greater EU competencies

Ireland has a minuscule amount of power and influence in these areas. The EU can provide better legislation and act more effectively for our benefit than we can on our own.

6. Greater role for EU peacekeepers

The treaty provides for a greater role for EU militaries to co-operate on UN mandated peacekeeping missions, while guaranteeing our neutrality.

7. Includes charter of human rights

For the first time EU all laws will be based on a charter of rights guaranteeing all EU citizens human rights.

8. Increases co-operation in Justice and Policing

The treaty increases the ability of national police forces and judiciary to combat international crime such as drug smuggling and people trafficking.

edit: just thought of another two

9. The two foreign policy posts are merged into one

The Lisbon creates an new role as the High Representative For Foreign affairs. It merges the two positions of 'High Representative for the Common Foreign and Security Policy' with the 'European Commissioner for External Relations and European Neighbourhood Policy'. This is to provide a coherent and consistent voice for Europe in the international sphere. Currently there are so many people representing the foreign policy of the EU, few governments are clear who to contact in regards to specific areas.

10. Three pillar structure scrapped and merged into one structure

The Lisbon treaty merges the three pillars of the EU into one single organisation. This is designed to improve strategic alignment trough better communications and control and to cut down on costs and bureaucracy by eliminating unnecessary duplicate rolls and reducing staff.

Sorry-I should have said 10 good reasons for IRELAND and not just reasons which will benefit the bigger states.....after all, you mention equality but Ireland will be far from equal if the treaty is not re-negotiated and you know that as well as everyone here--but honestly I do think it will be a win for the No campaign, and not just because it is the way I will vote.....sorry

sink

muincav wrote: »

Sorry-I should have said 10 good reasons for IRELAND and not just reasons which will benefit the bigger states.....after all, you mention equality but Ireland will be far from equal if the treaty is not re-negotiated and you know that as well as everyone here--but honestly I do think it will be a win for the No campaign, and not just because it is the way I will vote.....sorry

Our voting weight per-citizen is higher than states bigger than us in both the council and the parliament. Where exactly in the treaty does it favour the bigger states?

muincav

sink wrote: »

Our voting weight per-citizen is higher than states bigger than us in both the council and the parliament. Where exactly in the treaty does it favour the bigger states?

When it drops down to 0.8% from 2.0%!

VoidStarNull

muttsnutts1 wrote: »

Vote no and save democracy and simply if you don't Know then Vote No:rolleyes:

I would urge people NOT to vote NO simply because they don't know. Voting either YES or NO will have real consequences for both Ireland and Europe. Good explanations of the treaty in plain English are available on the web at the referendum commission site and other links which have been posted in this thread.

sink

muincav wrote: »

When it drops down to 0.8% from 2.0%!

Not it roughly stays at 2%. You are only counting one requirement for the new QMV system, there are two but the NO campaign politely forgets to tell you about the second. The council at the moment has a QMV system which give each state a weighted vote which does not match their population size (e.g. Germany has 16% if the population but only has 8% of the vote, Ireland has 0.8% of the population but has 2% of the vote) and a 75% majority is required. It replaces this with a double QMV system whereby there are two requirements for legislation to pass. First it has to have 55% of member states in agreement, this currently gives each member state an equal 3.75% say. Second those member states in favour must represent at least 65% of the population, so here we have 0.8% weight and Germany has 16% weight. This double QMV the voting system roughly balanced in favour of smaller countries as it did before, in that an individual Irish citizens vote is still more powerful than a German citizens.

alexanderomahon

what is so wrong with the current arrangements?

Dev 17

Almost 33% of No voters responding to a poll in today's Irish Times, said they were voting against the Treaty because they did not understand it. - RTE

Does this worry anybody else. As far as I'm concerned an uninformed 'no' is as bad as an uninformed 'yes'. I agree with Cowen when he says that the 'No' campaign are lying.

alexanderomahon

Dev 17 wrote: »

Does this worry anybody else. As far as I'm concerned an uninformed 'no' is as bad as an uninformed 'yes'. I agree with Cowen when he says that the 'No' campaign are lying.

Why should I agree to something I don't understand?
It is the salesman's job to convince me i need what is on offer. The problem with the yes campaign is that people don't want the EU to change because they are happy with how it is.

sink

alexanderomahon wrote: »

what is so wrong with the current arrangements?

Some counties which have large population differences still have the same voting weight e.g. Germany, France the UK and Italy all have 8% voting weight, but there population sizes are 16.6%, 13.0%, 12.3% and 12% respectively. The new voting system accounts for these differences.

bogwalrus

Rock Climber wrote: »

I'll be voting yes.
I haven't seen a no argument yet in this forum stand up to an examination by the poster scofflaw.
It's a no brainer really.

If anyone here is seriously thinking of voting no,I'd suggest having a read of his interactions with the various no voters here.

You can do this by going through a search of his posts here .

I wouldn't say this , if I wasn't very impressed and entirely confident that they are all a good read.
I'm quite shocked at times too with the sheer quackyness of some of the stuff he has had to reply to.

Fair play and thumbs up from me.

i second that.

Even printed off a few pages to show my "voting no" friends.

I only young and was going to vote no but did my research and looked at the different debates and heard the radio shows etc.............it is good for Ireland. Europe will develop more efficiently ad quicker. A no vote will slow Europe down a few more years and by then who knows what state the world will be in. It will definitely piss off alot of European countries that we vited no also so who know what underlying consequences that might hold.

Think about all the issues growing outside Europe and tell me we should just be conservative. Europe needs to be bigger and stronger so that other countries of the world can benchmark off us. Oil will be gone soon and there is definitely another few wars ahead of us "world wars" so to make Europe stronger we need to make the tough (but easy) decisions.

Boggy

johnnyq

muttsnutts1 wrote: »

Looks like a sizable NO, on two other Fora one has the NO at 81% and the other at NO 62% N0. The No campaign won the debate on Monday night at Q&A on RTE, hosted by John Bowman.The threat by the French today gave me 100% resolve to VOTE NO for the sake of Democracy,

Good for you muttsnutts1. I guess the yes's on this forum must be a small blip on the radar:D;)

nesf

muttsnutts1 wrote: »

Looks like a sizable NO, on two other Fora one has the NO at 81% and the other at NO 62% N0.

Hopefully this will follow the trend of the boards polls before the last general election, you know the ones that had FF losing by a landslide....