DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

sinnerboy

topcatcbr wrote: »

SB I disagree with your interpetation of the words "largest public room". When you take into account the reason for calc the area of the living room (Mean internal temp) it becomes apparent that they mean the room which would normally be kept at a higher temp than the rest of the dwelling. This would not be a Kitchen/Dining.

I think what they mean by "largest public room" is when you have a choice of two or more living/ Lounge/ Tv/ Games/Play/ room you then take the largest.

Clear as mud TC - ( not a criticism of YOU , TC ) . The largest public room could be be a seldom used Formal Dining Room - 18 degrees for 360 days of the year . Only used at Christmas etc . Some "live" in the Kitchen Diner - so it would be kept at 21 degrees . ( Assisted by cooking activities ) . Oh my head hurts :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Do-more

What's the current situation regarding labelling for existing buildings?

I see training companies are running courses, but has SEI made the new software available yet? Has SEI started running exams yet?

Do you think that this will go ahead as planned on Jan. 1st. 2009 or will they need to defer for 3 or 6 months?

As I understand it the home owner will be responsible for providing a detailed spec of their house for the BER assessor to provide the label from, who do you see carrying out the survey? And what is the likely cost of a survey?

Sorry for all the noob questions, but I'm just trying to get a handle on how this will effect somone selling a house next year.

Thanks

D-M.

topcatcbr

The test for existing dwellings is not published yet. The new software has not been released yet. Both were planned for the end of sept but this is now to be november as far as i know.

See link below for SEI page
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1574&docID=-1

No6

topcatcbr wrote: »

The test for existing dwellings is not published yet. The new software has not been released yet. Both were planned for the end of sept but this is now to be november as far as i know.

See link below for SEI page
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1574&docID=-1

I know there's not much moving on the property market but if it takes as long to do the course, get the results, do the sei exam, get the results and register as an assesor for existing dwellings it will be june before anybody cal sell or rent an exisitng dwelling with a BER at this rate!!!

sinnerboy

topcatcbr wrote: »

The test for existing dwellings is not published yet. The new software has not been released yet. Both were planned for the end of sept but this is now to be november as far as i know.

See link below for SEI page
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1574&docID=-1

See here

http://www.constructireland.ie/vb/showthread.php?t=545

Do-more

I was looking at a show house recently in a development which is advertised as having an A3 energy label unfortunately there was no one on site who I could query about it.

I'm very dubious about the claim, the houses are heated by air to water heat pumps with UFH. There are also solar panels for DHW. But there's no MHRV just trickle vents in the PVC windows. As I say there was no one to ask about the other construction details but the wall construction appeared to be a standard block construction as there was natural stonework on the front. Inside it was possible to see at some unfinished sockets that insulated slabs had been used OK.

Is it possible for a house without MHRV to reach an A3 rating?

sinnerboy

I would be sceptical . Trickle vents would seriously devalue a whole window U value - the window typically being the biggest heat losing enclosing element to start with . Strict adherence to accredited details would also be essential to claim the max 0.8 "Y" value . Was there a chimney / open fire ?

I have a 300m2 house here -
U Values
floor 0.13
walls 0.18
roof 0.13
windows 2.1 ( default - expect to get evidence of average 1.8 )
6m2 flat solar
UFH
no air tight test yet but expecting Q50 = 7
not expecting sign off accredited details so Y = 0.11
hole in wall vents
Result B1 101 kwhr/m2/year

IF

Q 50 = 5
HRV ( 0.5 / 90 % )

Result would be B1 79 kwhr/m2/year

If on top of that
sign off accredited details and Y = 0.08

Result would be B1 75 kwhr/m2/year

Need 74 kwhr/m2/year to creep into A3 .......

topcatcbr

sinnerboy wrote: »

See here

http://www.constructireland.ie/vb/showthread.php?t=545

Any sign of the new DEAP or manual. there is nothing about it on the sei website.

sinnerboy

don't make me :pac::pac::pac::pac:

No6

topcatcbr wrote: »

Any sign of the new DEAP or manual. there is nothing about it on the sei website.

I saw somewhere around here that it will now be november, but there's no rush, nothing will be selling!!!

No6

Do-more wrote: »

I was looking at a show house recently in a development which is advertised as having an A3 energy label unfortunately there was no one on site who I could query about it.

I'm very dubious about the claim, the houses are heated by air to water heat pumps with UFH. There are also solar panels for DHW. But there's no MHRV just trickle vents in the PVC windows. As I say there was no one to ask about the other construction details but the wall construction appeared to be a standard block construction as there was natural stonework on the front. Inside it was possible to see at some unfinished sockets that insulated slabs had been used OK.

Is it possible for a house without MHRV to reach an A3 rating?

I've done a preliminary assessment for a house and got it to A3 without MHRV, strangely enough when I put in MHRV it dropped back considerably to a B1 rating due to electricty usage.

sydthebeat

No6 wrote: »

I've done a preliminary assessment for a house and got it to A3 without MHRV, strangely enough when I put in MHRV it dropped back considerably to a B1 rating due to electricty usage.

single storey house by any chance???

No6

sydthebeat wrote: »

single storey house by any chance???

No it a two story house with a large single story portion.

sydthebeat

HRVs get a raw deal in DEAP.....

the more i use it the less useful it becomes....

i think ill have to figure out how to use the phpp to calculate specific energy demands.... rather than an assumed generic one.

No6

sydthebeat wrote: »

the more i use it the less useful it becomes....

I know what you mean syd for example why spend thoudsands on insulation specification improvements to gain a few points on DEAP when you can just convert to 100% low energy lighting and gain more. You should also try expalining why a wood pellet boiler is only given a 60% efficiency in DEAP and makes a rating rubbish!!!

DOCARCH

I see a certain training provider is still saying:

In excess of 150,000 buildings will require a BER certificate each year. The BER assessment market is worth an estimated €72 million per year. In the present economic downturn, BER assessments provide construction professionals with an excellent business opportunity. The HES Scheme (expected to launch in January 09) will require a further 40,000-50,000 houses to be assessed as part of a government grant to improve the energy efficiency of homes.

If I was a betting man........I wouldn't! Ha :rolleyes:

sydthebeat

No6 wrote: »

sydthebeat wrote: »

the more i use it the less useful it becomes....

I know what you mean syd for example why spend thoudsands on insulation specification improvements to gain a few points on DEAP when you can just convert to 100% low energy lighting and gain more. You should also try expalining why a wood pellet boiler is only given a 60% efficiency in DEAP and makes a rating rubbish!!!

those are only two of a litany of issues i have with it... most of the others have been well addressed in this thread.
DEAP doesnt understand the see-saw relationship between increased insulation and air tightness to heating system and control. This can be easily shown in low energy and passive builds. With new part l requirements this is going to cause serious problems when house A can be certified passive but get a b1 rating because its heating source is an electrical element, whereas house B which isnt passive gets an A3 because the 'theoretical' u values are low and theres a 30K geothermal UFH system.

The requirement to divide the q50 result by 20 is daft. They should simply have let the software use the air permiability figure and do whatever mathematical augmentations it needs to do in the background to provide an more specific figure. They ask for an 'air permeability per m2' test to be carried out yet DEAP requires an 'air change per hour' figure to be inputted....

sydthebeat

DOCARCH wrote: »

I see a certain training provider is still saying:

In excess of 150,000 buildings will require a BER certificate each year. The BER assessment market is worth an estimated €72 million per year. In the present economic downturn, BER assessments provide construction professionals with an excellent business opportunity. The HES Scheme (expected to launch in January 09) will require a further 40,000-50,000 houses to be assessed as part of a government grant to improve the energy efficiency of homes.

If I was a betting man........I wouldn't! Ha :rolleyes:

best laugh ive had in ages.....

No6

DOCARCH wrote: »

The BER assessment market is worth an estimated €72 million per year.

To the training providers, advertising providers, thermal imaging camers & blower door equipment suppliers!!! Currently worth sweet F all to the poor BER assessors!!! :eek: Its a bit like a dead carcass being over run by maggots !!!

sinnerboy

No6 wrote: »

I've done a preliminary assessment for a house and got it to A3 without MHRV, strangely enough when I put in MHRV it dropped back considerably to a B1 rating due to electricty usage.

No 6 - did you input Appendix Q values - or leave at DEAP default ? In my earlier example HRV helped a lot

No6

No sinnerboy just used DEAP defaults, I was only experimenting, I'll have to look at inputting appendix Q values

topcatcbr

Good news from Brian Lenihan. Maybee those who missed out last time can get included. (If they would like to).

sinnerboy

No6 wrote: »

No sinnerboy just used DEAP defaults, I was only experimenting, I'll have to look at inputting appendix Q values

Dis you re look No 6 ? - try 90% / 0.5 settings

sinnerboy

topcatcbr wrote: »

Good news from Brian Lenihan. Maybee those who missed out last time can get included. (If they would like to).

Any details TC ?

topcatcbr

an additional 15 million for 2009. SEI had plans all along to make the scheme nation wide but this depended on the state funds being available. This year was a pilot scheme which included Parts of Tipperary, Limerick, Clare & Dundalk town. Im not sure but i think this was valued at 5 million. This was increased in todays budget to 20m.

sinnerboy

Any word on the Greener Homes scheme budget ? ( subsidies for wood pellet boilers / heat pumps / solar panels )

topcatcbr

sinnerboy wrote: »

Any word on the Greener Homes scheme budget ? ( subsidies for wood pellet boilers / heat pumps / solar panels )

I didnt hear anything on this apart from the HESS complementing the Greener Homes scheme.

sinnerboy

http://www.budget.gov.ie/2009/downloads/CombinedBudgetEstimates2009&SPCP.pdf

page 30 here ( adobe page 65 ) item D2 . It looks like the SEI budget has swollen to meet the insulation schemes . But the expensive "renewables" grant aid remains in place . Shame . The lions share should go to aleiviating fuel poverty , upgrading the existing housing stock .

topcatcbr

sinnerboy wrote: »

Any word on the Greener Homes scheme budget ? ( subsidies for wood pellet boilers / heat pumps / solar panels )

Got paper today I. I. Greener homes scheme = 5 million.

topcatcbr

sinnerboy wrote: »

Dis you re look No 6 ? - try 90% / 0.5 settings

I have played around with this and have only found gains from imputting rediculous figures for energy usage and effeciencies. therefore for the purposes of DEAP i think HRV is not a good idea. (the software must be calculating it wrong)