DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

Jimbo

topcatcbr wrote: »

Its new of it has never been sold or rented before.

But how would that work for owner-occupied houses?

topcatcbr

The same to a point i would think. If it was completed before jan 2007 i would say its second hand as the previous Building regulations would apply. If after jan 2007 then new. If you have plans to work from use them.

No6

I'd say that it is a new house until it is first occupied, it may be exempt from a BER if the planning application was pre 2007 and it was substantially complete by 30th June 2008 and sold before the 1st Jan 2009. (after that it will the exemption will no longer apply so if its not sold it needs a BER)

Any house that has been occupied is not a new house:)

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

Any house that has been occupied is not a new house:)

Not necessarily true.
You cannot do a BER on a home which is no completed. You can only do a provisional cert for homes off plans which will require a final cert after completion or occupation. In the case of one off it will be normal to do a BER for a new home which is occupied already. This will not of gone for sale or let.

The end result will remain the same for either new or existing. The main difference is the amount of information is greater for new as you have drawings and spec and can usually talk to the site supervisor and or builder.

No6

Have you seen the new Non Domestic qualification Criteria

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/Non_Domestic_Buildings/BER_Assessors_for_Non-Domestic_Buildings/

Good news for some of us level 7 degree people we can now get in at level 3 which will do small basic existing non domestic units, subject to training (i'll post the cost when I get it) and exam which costs 750 to sit :eek:

sydthebeat

No6 wrote: »

Have you seen the new Non Domestic qualification Criteria

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/Non_Domestic_Buildings/BER_Assessors_for_Non-Domestic_Buildings/

Good news for some of us level 7 degree people we can now get in at level 3 which will do small basic existing non domestic units, subject to training (i'll post the cost when I get it) and exam which costs 750 to sit :eek:

my dip arch tech is level 7.. i assume that will be ok....


i will contact SEI on this and post here when i know more....

No6

sydthebeat wrote: »

my dip arch tech is level 7.. i assume that will be ok....


i will contact SEI on this and post here when i know more....

I'm not sure on that Syd it does say degree but since a level 7 degree and a diploma is the same thing in the eyes of the NSQAI then you're probably right!! You do need to be in a professional body also, RIAI Tech or MCIAT & ACIAT are currently accecptable!!!

sinnerboy

No6 wrote: »

Have you seen the new Non Domestic qualification Criteria

http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/Non_Domestic_Buildings/BER_Assessors_for_Non-Domestic_Buildings/

Good news for some of us level 7 degree people we can now get in at level 3 which will do small basic existing non domestic units, subject to training (i'll post the cost when I get it) and exam which costs 750 to sit :eek:

Makes sense that non domestics should be sub divided according to complexity and therefore that different assessor grades are required .

BUT - it is odd that level 7 is ok for simpler EXISTING non dom's but not new .....

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

I'm not sure on that Syd it does say degree but since a level 7 degree and a diploma is the same thing in the eyes of the NSQAI then you're probably right!! You do need to be in a professional body also, RIAI Tech or MCIAT & ACIAT are currently accecptable!!!

If you arecurrently ACIAT and are offering professional services do you not have to register as a profile member of CIAT. thus changing membership grade. and then you cannot register as level 3. Catch 22

No6

Possibly an ACIAT in employment and an assessor in employment, but you'r right about the self-employed bit!! I would have thought it was the TCIAT and MCIAT grades that should be listed after all you have to do POP records for both of these, ACIAT is as long as you are employed and have been to college!! Probably a misunderstanding on SEI's part, but at least the door is opening to us level 7 qualification holders, I think that that is very important. I'm sure it will be possible to get to level four with further training eventually. I think level 5 is going to be very specialised.

rjp123

Supposing a BER cert is issued for a dwelling and at the time of assessment the apartment had 0% Energy Efficient Bulbs. That Cert is then valid for 10 years (full BER on existing). In the mean time if the owner changes to CFL bulbs (which appears to be a mandatory enforcement in a few years) - what happens the CERT - surely it is now technically invalid and void now matter how small the effect.
I know there is some guidance on this kind of thing provided there are no major material changes to the building over the 10 year period - Im just wondering is there more specific guidance on this? Cheers

sinnerboy

rjp123 wrote: »

Supposing a BER cert is issued for a dwelling and at the time of assessment the apartment had 0% Energy Efficient Bulbs. That Cert is then valid for 10 years (full BER on existing). In the mean time if the owner changes to CFL bulbs (which appears to be a mandatory enforcement in a few years) - what happens the CERT - surely it is now technically invalid and void now matter how small the effect.
I know there is some guidance on this kind of thing provided there are no major material changes to the building over the 10 year period - Im just wondering is there more specific guidance on this? Cheers

One can obtain a new assessment ( BER Cert ) at any time

rjp123

sinnerboy wrote: »

One can obtain a new assessment ( BER Cert ) at any time

so no cert issued now is likely to last the full 10 years if they go ahead and phase out standard lightbulbs! I guess the obligation is on the houseowner to make sure that they highlight any changes done since the last assessment - I predict a lot of certs going around that aren't right in a few years.

sydthebeat

rjp123 wrote: »

so no cert issued now is likely to last the full 10 years if they go ahead and phase out standard lightbulbs! I guess the obligation is on the houseowner to make sure that they highlight any changes done since the last assessment - I predict a lot of certs going around that aren't right in a few years.

if the alteration of light bulbs is going to have a significant affect on a rating it may be worth getting a second one done, but in reality it wont really unless your starting from a E or D rating.....

If your at a B2 rating it MAY get you to a B1... so no real significant difference...

The law states:

A BER certificate and related advisory report shall be rendered invalid if there is any material change in the building to which it relates which could affect its energy performance, including-
(a) any significant deterioration in the fabric of the building; or
(b) any extension of the building; or
(c) any change in the heating system for the building or in the type of fuel used by that system.

rjp123

sydthebeat wrote: »

if the alteration of light bulbs is going to have a significant affect on a rating it may be worth getting a second one done, but in reality it wont really unless your starting from a E or D rating.....

If your at a B2 rating it MAY get you to a B1... so no real significant difference...
The law states:

A BER certificate and related advisory report shall be rendered invalid if there is any material change in the building to which it relates which could affect its energy performance, including-
(a) any significant deterioration in the fabric of the building; or
(b) any extension of the building; or
(c) any change in the heating system for the building or in the type of fuel used by that system.

But if you allow that level of ambiguity into it (i.e the householder deciding if he'll get another cert for doing a few improvements here and there) then it is flawed.(SEIs problem really)
I also would have considered B2 to B1 a good improvement?
If i read the first line of the law bit it states that "any material change ..." so I think that answers it for me.
As an assessor all you can do is tell them if they change anything then they need a new assessment - whether they do or not is another story.Thanks all

sinnerboy

rjp123 wrote: »

But if you allow that level of ambiguity into it (i.e the householder deciding if he'll get another cert for doing a few improvements here and there) then it is flawed.(SEIs problem really)
I also would have considered B2 to B1 a good improvement?
If i read the first line of the law bit it states that "any material change ..." so I think that answers it for me.
As an assessor all you can do is tell them if they change anything then they need a new assessment - whether they do or not is another story.Thanks all

No ambiguity exists . Syd's post is clear . Onus is on the owner to comply

ardara1

rjp123 wrote: »

Supposing a BER cert is issued for a dwelling and at the time of assessment the apartment had 0% Energy Efficient Bulbs. That Cert is then valid for 10 years (full BER on existing). In the mean time if the owner changes to CFL bulbs (which appears to be a mandatory enforcement in a few years) - what happens the CERT - surely it is now technically invalid and void now matter how small the effect.
I know there is some guidance on this kind of thing provided there are no major material changes to the building over the 10 year period - Im just wondering is there more specific guidance on this? Cheers

The Irish DEAP is a copy of the UK SAP - with a couple of subtle changes - for instance when it comes to energy efficienct lighting it is the FITTINGS that are installed that accept EE bulbs ONLY - not the bulbs themselves - makes more sense.

topcatcbr

Not to contridict you but i was under the same impression until i did the HESS course run by sei and they were of the opinion that it was the bulbs. and infact a fitting with multiple bulbs has to have all EE bulbs fitted to be clasified as EE.

Another misconception i had was that a fitting was any series of fittings connected to a single switch eg spots but this is only the case with if they are on the one bar or appliance. Single spots connected in series are not considered the same.

sydthebeat

topcat is correct...

all clarification from SEI have said that they accept low energy bulb installation as a means to meet the measures to use as 'low energy lighting'.

any assessment with this needs to have a signed undertaking from the occupiers...... not a perfect situation by any means, but acceptable to the administrators of the BER process!!!!

DOCARCH

Another general trashing of BER on Derek Mooney show on RTE! Like a carbon copy of Joe Duffy a couple of months ago.

topcatcbr

At least Paula Rice was on to give some intelligent info. The hard questions were asked but unlike the JD show they were answered. JD never gave any opportunity to respond and as usual only allowed one side of the argument to be heard. I think the debate today was far more positive.

No6

Damn Missed it again!!!

sydthebeat

what were the issues dealt with??

was it just an advert by SEI of the BER system??

DOCARCH

topcatcbr wrote: »

I think the debate today was far more positive.

Ehhhhh.....Derek got a bit/very heated about the whole cost thing and the whole thin ended with Derek reading out comments like 'jobs for the boys', 'sacm', 'rip-off', 'it costs £50 in the UK'.

Not very positive imho!

Is there an agenda in RTE???

topcatcbr

I just cought the end but from what i heard it wasnt too bad. I heard the price comments from derek but i thought Paula answered questions well. There was an element of negitivity put across but nothing as one sided as the JD show. I didnt get the whole interview so i cannot give a difinitive opinion.

Mossyfields

Look on the positive side , its air time for the subject. It may be negative but it better than nothing.

PS> See there is a free workshop on air tightness for assessors in Galway..
reference www.berassoc.ie

Villain

Whats competition like lads? What kind of prices are been charged for existing dwellings?

sydthebeat

anyone know what the turn around period is in SEI at the moment from sending the assessment to recieving the cert??

Villain

To answer my own question prices seem to vary a lot from a google, from around €225 to €500!!!

I would warn anyone reading this who needs to get a BER cert done to shop around, seems some people may trying to make a little too much hay!

sinnerboy

Or some people are not offering a proper service . I won't be doing any certs for €225 ....

Villain

sinnerboy wrote: »

Or some people are not offering a proper service . I won't be doing any certs for €225 ....

Whys that Sinnerboy?

No6

Is 225 for new or existing!! for one very small unit or a big one or multiple units??? Its hard to know how long a piece of string is!!:D

Villain

It's for an existing 3 bed semi

sinnerboy

Villain wrote: »

Whys that Sinnerboy?

I don't believe it's possible to discharge a professional service at that rate . Site visit and measure - estimate time 4-6 hours ( including travel ) . Data input 2 hours . Min 1 day . Equates to €28 per hour gross . Expenses and incomes taxes to be met .

Now maybe if the economy continues to evaporate that will look attractive but untill then ....

Villain

Well if you exclude travel costs I don't think many people at the moment can look for more than €225 for a days work, and tbh the market will dictate the price.

Also is it true that auctioneers are now allowed to carry out BER certs just not on buildings on their books?

muffler

Hope this is the right thread but could someone PM the name of a cheap BER assessor.

Villain

Well the price was quote to a friend over the phone, the prices listed by this organisation on another forum are below:

Apartment to 60 sq m €175
Apartment / House to 80 Sq m €200
House to 100 sq m €250
House to 150 Sq m €325

No6

Villain wrote: »

Well the price was quote to a friend over the phone, the prices listed by this organisation on another forum are below:

Apartment to 60 sq m €175
Apartment / House to 80 Sq m €200
House to 100 sq m €250
House to 150 Sq m €325

So to get your 225 for a 3 bed semi you are going for a house under 80m²??? plus 25 SEI fee. It may be possible if its a really old house, most semi's in the last few years would be between 100 and 125m² (125m² was the old first time buyers grant max size!!) which would put it at 325!! Not quite a cheap then is it. Plus VAT!!:D I like this pricing structure it makes you think its cheap but its not as cheap as you think!! what the charge for 150m² plus houses (virtually every one off house in the country!!!)

sinnerboy

I think it's akin to the ****air affect . The headline price is not really the price

No6

How about this!!! Existing Dwellings BER assessments for free!!! :eek: Just pay for expenses, and in very very very small text (sei fee eur 25, travel 10c per m, Printing 50c per A4 sheet.)

so say I'm doing an assessment 1.5km away and using 100 a4 sheet (U value calculations with condensation analysis (about 10 pages per element!!) it will cost 25 + 300 + 50 = 375 and you thought it was for free!!!!

sinnerboy

Villain wrote: »

Well if you exclude travel costs

will you pick me up and drop me home Villain

Villain wrote: »

I don't think many people at the moment can look for more than €225 for a days work, and tbh the market will dictate the price.

We will have to see of course . Just let say that in my case , thankfully , that rate does not motivate .

Villain wrote: »

Also is it true that auctioneers are now allowed to carry out BER certs just not on buildings on their books?

It is true .

Paradoxically I do see myself doing certs for clients as part of the overall service - "thrown in" if you like . I never saw myself chasing the existing market like you are outlining Villain .

2 types of customer will emerge -

Type 1 - get the cert for cheap , not really interested in rating , just want "the piece of paper " . Now MAYBE if an assessor gears up for that market and can obtain and process 2+ assessments per day ( may be possible to become very , very proficient if that is all you do ) , then a reasonable income can be made

Type 2 - will want pre cert assessment , followed by planned and cost/benefit assessed works follows by maximised BER cert rating and , more importantly , a better house .

No6

sinnerboy wrote: »

Paradoxically I do see myself doing certs for clients as part of the overall service - "thrown in" if you like . I never saw myself chasing the existing market like you are outlining Villain .

Funnilly enough I have been doing this (well I charge for doing the BER) with a specification improvement service thrown in for free for my clients and I've had no interest from them whatsoever. I'm doing the certs alright but I cannot get them interested in improving their houses beyone the reg standard. (typical Mayo People!!) I'm charging my non architectural clients a reasonable fee for doing this and when they take me up on it it works out to be a very useful excercise, everyone starts wanting an A rated house untill they cost it out!!!:D

Villain

No6 wrote: »

So to get your 225 for a 3 bed semi you are going for a house under 80m²??? plus 25 SEI fee. It may be possible if its a really old house, most semi's in the last few years would be between 100 and 125m² (125m² was the old first time buyers grant max size!!) which would put it at 325!! Not quite a cheap then is it. Plus VAT!!:D I like this pricing structure it makes you think its cheap but its not as cheap as you think!! what the charge for 150m² plus houses (virtually every one off house in the country!!!)

The quote was for a house that is 98m² and they quoted €225 thats 1050sqft pretty normal size in my area.

Sinnerboy I accept what you say about 2 different type of clients but I think the number of people needing just cert's for houses they are renting or selling will be far far more than those who are building and want to improve their rating

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

anyone know what the turn around period is in SEI at the moment from sending the assessment to recieving the cert??

You can print the cert immediatly after publishing to SEI website.

topcatcbr

sinnerboy wrote: »

I don't believe it's possible to discharge a professional service at that rate . Site visit and measure - estimate time 4-6 hours ( including travel ) . Data input 2 hours . Min 1 day . Equates to €28 per hour gross . Expenses and incomes taxes to be met .

Now maybe if the economy continues to evaporate that will look attractive but untill then ....

It is easy to do 2 a day. I have done 5 in a day and that included traveling up to 30 min between houses.

I think you have to be realistic when pricing for this. If I can earn €400 in a day Im quite happy. And I will offer the service my client requires. If they want an improvement spec on top of the standard advisary report they will pay for this.

No6

Topcatcbr is on speed!!!:D was that 5 surveyed in one day or five surveyed and inputed into Deap?

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

Topcatcbr is on speed!!!:D was that 5 surveyed in one day or five surveyed and inputed into Deap?

Just the survey
The DEAP took another day

DOCARCH

topcatcbr wrote: »

If I can earn €400 in a day Im quite happy.

€ 400 a day.....I wouldn't bother getting out of bed!

No6

topcatcbr wrote: »

Just the survey
The DEAP took another day

so completed exisitng ber's is 2.5 per day!! not to bad if you can get 2.5 per day!!!

topcatcbr

No6 wrote: »

so completed exisitng ber's is 2.5 per day!! not to bad if you can get 2.5 per day!!!

I dont think there are too many doing just BERs so if you get 3-4 a week it is an extra few quid on top of what you would of been earning already. Now i dont want to make it sound like a great number becuse it is far from this but I wouldnt be doing it if there was nothing in it for me. I am doing it for a year now and started training and setting up for it 18 months ago. I am only now getting to break even now. That said the running costs now are quite low and it dosnt add greatly to my workload and as i have said before i would of done it anyway as CPD for Arch Tech. I would not recomend anyone to set up soley to do BERs as there is no living in it but as an add on to an existing relevent bussiness i could justify it.