DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

No6

I'd be the same doing it as an add on to an existing buisness, I would hope to break even at some stage this early year!!! :eek:

berass

The workshop in Galway for ber assessors is now full.:cool:
Further workshops are in the pipeline for Dublin and Waterford.;)

Further information is available on www.berassoc.ie

bennybronko

Couple of questions for anyone who has done the course.

I have a construction trade background but am not too well up on computers, can anyone tell me how knowledgeable you have to be on computers, how difficult the course is and any recommendations on good instructors to take the course with.

1st post on boards, thanks.

topcatcbr

Hi Benny.

If you can post here you obviously have some knowladge of computers. It is no harm to be fairly profecient and if you could work excel all the better but the computer end of things is not difficult. If you can use excel you should have no probs if you cant id have a look at excel first and if someone could show u the basics it would be great. now it is not all excell but the DEAP program is similar in its function. you could get away without it.

It depends what construction trade backround you come from. If you are familiar with building regs and can do a u-value calc its a great help. you will be shown but a week is a short time if you cannot do some of the basics.

How difficult it is is a relitive question. What you might think is easy i might find difficult.

bennybronko

Cheers TC,
Email and Internet's about my limit, I'll have a browse on excel to try to get the basics, I have an excel training CD which I've never bothered to learn somewhere in the house.

Plastering background however I'm familiar with most building materials and construction procedures.
I've only been thinking about this course in the past few days and I've learned to receive the certificate in March I will have to complete the course in the next two weeks, otherwise I'll have to wait until September when the next batch are issued.
I am considering starting on Saturday for €1,500 as the other available courses in the coming weeks are €2,000. The assessment is the following Saturday.
Do you think it's a lot to learn in one week, for the average Joe.

BTW, I have 20 years experience in construction, I see it as another avenue to provide for my family if the phone calls for work continue to decline.
I would certainly take the occupation seriously and give a thorough and professional service.

topcatcbr

Do I think its allot to learn for the average Joe in one week. Yes. There are assumptions made by the trainers. Firstly they wiil expect that you already have a good grounding on the Building Regs TGD particularly part L. But they wont go too deep into this on the course. It is only a week. (It took me much longer for me to be familiar with them).

You will be thought how to do a U-Value calc on the course. But this is meant as refresher training.

Im sure you will get through it but what happens then. Do you go and teach yourself all the things you didnt learn on the course. This is not an ideal situation.

I dont mean to patronise and i apologise if i sound like i am i am trying to give honest advise because i have seen the trainers take money from people who should never of considered doing this.

As I have said else where this is not a stand alone career but something which should tie in with other services eg Architecture, Engineering, Building Surveying, Renewable energy services, etc.

I could be wrong but i dont see it being offered with a plastering service.

Think about the investment you have to make.

€1500 - €2000 for course
€1215 SEI Fee inc VAT
€900 approx PI & PL Insurance.
Each cert €25 + Vat
Computer

With the average cert costing approx €275 inc Sei fee and VAT and this price is falling all the time it may be along time before you break even on your investment.

I hope this helps.

I am in this now but i would have done it as part of an architectural service anyway. I see it as part of my job.

sydthebeat

quick q on doing an existing BER...

if one room has a suspened timber floor.. and the rest solid...

do i still input 'no' when asked if there is a suspended timber ground floor in the ventilation section.... im thinking i should put in 'no'....

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

quick q on doing an existing BER...

if one room has a suspened timber floor.. and the rest solid...

do i still input 'no' when asked if there is a suspended timber ground floor in the ventilation section.... im thinking i should put in 'no'....

This is how i have been doing this. However it will be treated sepretly under floor uvalues

Are you a member of the beraa

If so they have a tech questions section for members

Its quite good for this type of question.

Bigger resource of assessors

Eurorunner

sydthebeat wrote: »

quick q on doing an existing BER...

if one room has a suspened timber floor.. and the rest solid...

do i still input 'no' when asked if there is a suspended timber ground floor in the ventilation section.... im thinking i should put in 'no'....

If memory serves me, its its either in the deap manual or the guidance doc. that came with the latest software. You work on the assumption of whichevers in the majority.

bennybronko

TC, thanks a million for taking the time and effort in your detailed reply.

I agree with you that assessors should have been limited to Architectural and Engineering professions and the integrity of the surveys have been compromised already by people out to make a quick buck and without the required knowledge.

I spoke to a guy today whose brother has an estate agency practice and he said that his brother has a deal with a friend of his who is a qualified assessor to do the surveys for €200, the agent is charging €400. It looks like this will not be uncommon practice, as we all know how some estate agents work.

I'm going to have to give this more consideration over the coming weeks.

In addition; It's an absolute scandal that operators are charging €2000 x 15 pupils for a weeks work. There are obviously costs involved but these rates are outrageous.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my query.

topcatcbr

No prob Benny glad to help.

Mossyfields

bennybronko wrote: »

TC, thanks a million for taking the time and effort in your detailed reply.

In addition; It's an absolute scandal that operators are charging €2000 x 15 pupils for a weeks work. There are obviously costs involved but these rates are outrageous.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my query.

TC has not mentioned that this is actually a very interesting industry. The training costs are too high , but very informative for anyone who has an interest or who has worked in construction.
As an investment , you would be better buying shares in the banks. As a long term career , hopefully it will prove to be worthwhile and rewarding

bennybronko

Mossyfields wrote: »

TC has not mentioned that this is actually a very interesting industry. The training costs are too high , but very informative for anyone who has an interest or who has worked in construction.
As an investment , you would be better buying shares in the banks. As a long term career , hopefully it will prove to be worthwhile and rewarding

Cheers Mossyfields,

I agree with you on your point, I just hope the industry doesn't become wrapped up by estate agent and backhanders which I fear it might do.

I think I'll give it a month or two to brush up on a few skills before embarking on the course.;)

Matt Simis

Who were you thinking about using for training? Any pros and cons of one or the other?

RKQ

bennybronko wrote: »

I spoke to a guy today whose brother has an estate agency practice and he said that his brother has a deal with a friend of his who is a qualified assessor to do the surveys for €200, the agent is charging €400. It looks like this will not be uncommon practice, as we all know how some estate agents work.

Sad days indeed. Hope this type of corruption won't destroy things for the honest BER Assessors. I agree the course is overly expensive.

bennybronko

Matt Simis wrote: »

Who were you thinking about using for training? Any pros and cons of one or the other?

The only information I have is from the various course providers websites.
Haven't had any personal recommendations.

Would appreciate recommendations for any Dublin course providers.

mossysheehan

I'm doing my first assessment this week for a property developer i used work for on a block of appartments in a refurbished townhouse. Refurbished about six years ago. He has no evidence as to what type of insulation is actually in the walls, either photo's or invoices. I actually worked on the house for him so i know the walls have insulated plasterboard. Is there any way around using the default of a stone wall. Seems a bit harsh.

Mossyfields

mossysheehan wrote: »

I'm doing my first assessment this week for a property developer i used work for on a block of appartments in a refurbished townhouse. Refurbished about six years ago. He has no evidence as to what type of insulation is actually in the walls, either photo's or invoices. I actually worked on the house for him so i know the walls have insulated plasterboard. Is there any way around using the default of a stone wall. Seems a bit harsh.

You are obliged to do an accurare reading and a correct result. To enter what you know to be incorrect information would be wrong.

No6

Any drawings and or specifications in a file anywhere, planning files even!!

No6

Paula Rice is now on the last word, holding her own (just about!!)

Smcgie

Dam i missed the feckin thing! Howd she do No6?

No6

She did ok(ish) Matt was gig her a hard time about an article in the Sunday Times where three different assessors got three different ratings for three different prices on the same house. :eek: She mentioned SEI audits and appeals procedure (where someone gets a rating they don't like (god help us!!) also that we're all supposed to have a minimum level 6 construction qualification, prices between 300 and 500 !!! (we wish!!) She wasn't too bad in fairness!!

Smcgie

No6 wrote: »

She did ok(ish) Matt was gig her a hard time about an article in the Sunday Times where three different assessors got three different ratings for three different prices on the same house. :eek: She mentioned SEI audits and appeals procedure (where someone gets a rating they don't like (god help us!!) also that we're all supposed to have a minimum level 6 construction qualification, prices between 300 and 500 !!! (we wish!!) She wasn't too bad in fairness!!

Good, good!.. i'm after emailing matt there, i hope he reads it out before he goes off. i was saying that an end user is unaware of the training and registering cost for assessors and that if reg was cheaper and cert print out fee cancled then maybe it would be cheaper for an end user.

Villain

Anyone know how this is going to be enforced? I think it would be a shame now if the Government didn't enforce it properly if this doesn't get a good start then the BER could be disregarded before it even gets going.

sinnerboy

Local authories are charged with enforcement Villain - remains to be seen how they do so

I think SEI do have a tough sell if they can't move the arguments away from what the cert costs to obtain and onto the benefit the purchaser / renter .

2 houses same street both look similar ( for sale or let ) , you are looking to buy or rent . But one house only has spanking new boiler, lots of lel's , insulation upgrade = better BER - so like when buying a fridge you can compare products which are superficially the same .

That's when the penny will drop as to the value of BER's that is what should be emphasized

Villain

Oh dear local Authorities! Could be a tough time trying to get it going so.

Obviously house sales will be easy to enforce problem is there is not a lot of them happening, if the rental market is enforced this could really suffer to get going, which would be very dissapointing imo

Smcgie

SEI are apparently going to enforce it. I do see them coming down on people and making examples of people for not having a BER Cert. Another way of supposed enforcement is getting the certs added into a planning application but this is only for new builds, as for existing dwellings... maybe An post can do this one as well

sydthebeat

Smcgie wrote: »

SEI are apparently going to enforce it. I do see them coming down on people and making examples of people for not having a BER Cert. Another way of supposed enforcement is getting the certs added into a planning application but this is only for new builds, as for existing dwellings... maybe An post can do this one as well

sei 'administer' the system..... but its up to building control in local authorities to 'enforce' it......

sinnerboy

Smcgie wrote: »

SEI are apparently going to enforce it.

no , they won't

Smcgie wrote: »

I do see them coming down on people and making examples of people for not having a BER Cert.

Why ? - because they can't do this - only local authorities

Smcgie wrote: »

Another way of supposed enforcement is getting the certs added into a planning application

no .... SI 666 of 2006 and it's provisions is how , actual , not supposed , enforcement is legislated for

Smcgie wrote: »

but this is only for new builds, as for existing dwellings... maybe An post can do this one as well

..... yeah ... maybe An Post will

RKQ

Smcgie wrote: »

Another way of supposed enforcement is getting the certs added into a planning application but this is only for new builds, as for existing dwellings... maybe An post can do this one as well

Planning Permission is a terrible idea as BER options are finalised at tender / Contract stage!

IMO the easiest way to enforce it :- New Build - Law Society request it with Final Stage Payment.

Rent :- Tax office require BER for tax relief!

No extra cost, no new planning forms - simple!!!

No6

Sure theres some builders around here still coming to terms with the whole idea of the Building Control Act 1991 and the planning act (The 1963 one!!!) Enforcement is'nt that a Clint Eastwood Film???:D:D

sinnerboy

Do ya feel lucky .... punk :cool:

sinnerboy

RKQ wrote: »

Planning Permission is a terrible idea as BER options are finalised at tender / Contract stage!

IMO the easiest way to enforce it :- New Build - Law Society request it with Final Stage Payment.

Rent :- Tax office require BER for tax relief!

No extra cost, no new planning forms - simple!!!

IMO - enforcement could be as simple as - LA's require Estate Agents ( selling / letting ) and solicitors ( selling ) to demonstrate to them that they are seeking BER certs . SI 666 2006 empowers LA' to demand cert from the building owner or agent

REFLINE1

Hi,This is my first post on this board bear that in mind if this ends up in the wrong thread!

Im a degree qualified Engineer working with a leading Irish Main Contractor.I have almost 5years experience on sites ranging from Residential (Apts etc) to Commercial projects.

Im in the process of signing up to do the BER asessor training course..probably with DIT.Ive convinced my employer to cover the costs of this training as part of my CPD.

Im thinking of getting into this as a sideline income but amen't sure wether its viable or worth the hassle! I have a solid understanding of insulation techniques heating systems etc as it stands.

Has anyone thoughts on this? Good idea/Bad?!

Im guessing id need PI to do this also?
How much work is involved in a cert for a typical semi detached 3 bed for instance? (Hrs-Approx)

You guys seem to be well up on this topic so id appreciate the advice,
cheers

No6

Nice to have someone pay for it for you, you wouldn't be able to assess your employers buildings though when you qualify, if I were you I'd spend a hour or two reading all of the posts relating to BER on this site, theres a few threads, you should have PI & Pl too, Look on the SEI's website plenty of information there too.

No6

sinnerboy wrote: »

Do ya feel lucky .... punk :cool:

Its not called the wild west for nothing you know!!! now wheres my horse!!!:D

brianmacl

Smcgie wrote: »

SEI are apparently going to enforce it. I do see them coming down on people and making examples of people for not having a BER Cert. Another way of supposed enforcement is getting the certs added into a planning application but this is only for new builds, as for existing dwellings... maybe An post can do this one as well

There is a slight problem with SEI enforcing it, as SI666 from 2006 was badly written. Part 3 talks about properties "offered for sale or letting" however in general estate agents invite to treat rather than offer for sale, this may sound petty but this could mean that no one could be prosicuted for not having a BER cert.

Then they tried lump estate agents in with the property owner, in relation to resposibility, by using the term "agent" which could also refer a solicitor but they didn't really define the term. So there may be a whole bunch of Solicitors juping up and down to help any estate agent who SEI try go after so they can make sure that SEI can't go after themselves.

Smcgie

I'm quite confused as to who's policing this, on my training course the BER Trainer said that SEI will be taking on people in mid-09 to do door-door visits on properties being built, or advertised for sale or rent. The course was in Nov of last year so maybe has gone over my head.

The training provider clearly stated that SEI are going to police this and they have already started employing TV Licence type men to call to on new built houses,

Obvious to reading your post this is hearsay. :rolleyes:

sinnerboy

@ brianmcl -

From Part 3 SI 666 2006

(2) A person who offers for sale or letting (whether in writing or otherwise)—
(a) a building of a class referred to in subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4) construction of which commences on or after such date specified for that class in the said subparagraphs, hereinafter referred to as a ‘new building’, or
(b) on or after 1 January 2009, a building that is in existence on or before 1 January 2009,
and any agent acting on behalf of such person in connection with such offering, shall produce a printed copy of the BER certificate and advisory report in relation to the building to any person expressing an interest in purchasing or taking a letting of the building and, on demand, to the building control authority in whose functional area the building is situated.


I am not a legal expert - ( perhaps you are ) . My interpretation is that agent is not defined , perhaps delibrately , so to include solicitors and estate agents .

note that local authorities , not sei have power to demand

Also from part 3 - enforcement

Production of BER certificate
9. (1) A building control authority or an authorised officer thereof may demand, from the owner of a building, or the agent of such owner, within the functional area of the authority, the production of a printed copy of the BER certificate required in respect of the building by these Regulations, and if the building owner or the agent of such owner as the case may be refuses or fails to produce without reasonable excuse the printed copy of the BER certificate then and there, he or she, unless within 28 days after the day on which production was demanded he or she produces a printed copy of the BER certificate to the authority, commits an offence.


It seems clear to me - on what basis are you saying the SI is flawed ? - to clarify - I am not "challenging" you , you may see something I don't

Smcgie

sinnerboy wrote: »

no , they won't



Why ? - because they can't do this - only local authorities



no .... SI 666 of 2006 and it's provisions is how , actual , not supposed , enforcement is legislated for




..... yeah ... maybe An Post will

I love the way you tear a thread apart when its wrong :P

brianmacl

You have just provided the section that is flawed, i have underlined and made bold the wording that I beleive is wrong.

Houses are not offered for sale. A washing machine or fridge is offered for sale in a shop, if there is a price tag on it and you pay the shop keeper that amount you get the fridge or washing machine. However houses are sold with an "asking price" or "AMV" and people are invited to make an offer on the property, if you offer the price being asked for you are not entittled to get the house, this method of sale is described as an invitation to treat. The house is not offered for sale while being marketed.

This may make prossecutions under SI666 virtually impossible

To me it looks like who ever drew up this legislation coppied and pasted from the legislation that was introduced so that household appliences that were offere for sale should include an energy rating slicker and propbably forgot first year contract law.

sinnerboy wrote: »

@ brianmcl -

From Part 3 SI 666 2006

(2) A person who offers for sale or letting (whether in writing or otherwise)—
(a) a building of a class referred to in subparagraph (a) or (b) of paragraph (4) construction of which commences on or after such date specified for that class in the said subparagraphs, hereinafter referred to as a ‘new building’, or
(b) on or after 1 January 2009, a building that is in existence on or before 1 January 2009,
and any agent acting on behalf of such person in connection with such offering, shall produce a printed copy of the BER certificate and advisory report in relation to the building to any person expressing an interest in purchasing or taking a letting of the building and, on demand, to the building control authority in whose functional area the building is situated.


I am not a legal expert - ( perhaps you are ) . My interpretation is that agent is not defined , perhaps delibrately , so to include solicitors and estate agents .

note that local authorities , not sei have power to demand

Also from part 3 - enforcement

Production of BER certificate
9. (1) A building control authority or an authorised officer thereof may demand, from the owner of a building, or the agent of such owner, within the functional area of the authority, the production of a printed copy of the BER certificate required in respect of the building by these Regulations, and if the building owner or the agent of such owner as the case may be refuses or fails to produce without reasonable excuse the printed copy of the BER certificate then and there, he or she, unless within 28 days after the day on which production was demanded he or she produces a printed copy of the BER certificate to the authority, commits an offence.


It seems clear to me - on what basis are you saying the SI is flawed ? - to clarify - I am not "challenging" you , you may see something I don't

brianmacl

A couple of things I have went for proffesional indemnity as well as public liability total cost is anywhere from €850 ish to €1,500 for the lot.
Just remember if you are going to do this a side line you will also be paying SEI €1,215 to register and a further €30+ ish per assessment so with the price per BER Assessment dropping you may have to do a fair number of jobs before you break even.

I think it is worth doing the course and understanding this stuff.

People suggest that it can take from 1 hour to half a day to do an assessment on an average house. I am sure that as people do more they will get into a better rythem and will be able to tell you with more precisson how long it can take.

REFLINE1 wrote: »

Hi,This is my first post on this board bear that in mind if this ends up in the wrong thread!

Im a degree qualified Engineer working with a leading Irish Main Contractor.I have almost 5years experience on sites ranging from Residential (Apts etc) to Commercial projects.

Im in the process of signing up to do the BER asessor training course..probably with DIT.Ive convinced my employer to cover the costs of this training as part of my CPD.

Im thinking of getting into this as a sideline income but amen't sure wether its viable or worth the hassle! I have a solid understanding of insulation techniques heating systems etc as it stands.

Has anyone thoughts on this? Good idea/Bad?!

Im guessing id need PI to do this also?
How much work is involved in a cert for a typical semi detached 3 bed for instance? (Hrs-Approx)

You guys seem to be well up on this topic so id appreciate the advice,
cheers

topcatcbr

The prices are dropping quickly. This may in part be due to those who have already recovered the initial investment and can thus reduce prices. It is going to be harder for someone setting up from now on as it will take so much longer when prices are low to recover this and thus make it less worthwhile in starting at all.

There is a limit on how low they can go and i think it has reached this.

brianmacl

topcatcbr wrote: »

The prices are dropping quickly. This may in part be due to those who have already recovered the initial investment and can thus reduce prices. It is going to be harder for someone setting up from now on as it will take so much longer when prices are low to recover this and thus make it less worthwhile in starting at all.

There is a limit on how low they can go and i think it has reached this.

I think that SEI are possibly assisting in making this the lowest possible price. If they dropped the fee from €25 to €5 I would suggest that this would trigger a further serrious cut as people could do more jobs at a lower price before hitting the €37,500 turn over limit to avoid charging VAT.

Worst / best case scenario
Now assuming that some people are willing to earn before personal tax €24,000 a year then and they have to have a gross business income of €31,000 to acheive this then they will be able to carry out over 1,051 assesments in a year, thus would be able to charge about €36 per cert. that is of course not allowing for an increas in expenses due to the extra travel, etc it also assumes that a person could do about 5 assesments a day, 5 days a week for 48 weeks a year allowing for some sick time and time to manage a business.

No6

Brian I think you're living in the wrong Country if every assessor currently registered (About 1200 of them) did 1000 assessments a year there would be 1,200,000 sales and rentals a year!!!! do we even have that many houses in the country!!! Could we invade England perhaps!!! or Spain the weather is better!!!:D

sinnerboy

brianmacl wrote: »

You have just provided the section that is flawed, i have underlined and made bold the wording that I beleive is wrong.

Houses are not offered for sale. A washing machine or fridge is offered for sale in a shop, if there is a price tag on it and you pay the shop keeper that amount you get the fridge or washing machine. However houses are sold with an "asking price" or "AMV" and people are invited to make an offer on the property, if you offer the price being asked for you are not entittled to get the house, this method of sale is described as an invitation to treat. The house is not offered for sale while being marketed.

This may make prossecutions under SI666 virtually impossible

To me it looks like who ever drew up this legislation coppied and pasted from the legislation that was introduced so that household appliences that were offere for sale should include an energy rating slicker and propbably forgot first year contract law.

You may well have a point in law , i simply don't know . New legislation is often found to have weaknesses when tested in courts we know that .

But this will not change matters much , BER is here to stay . Perhaps a test case may trigger a Minister to issue short amending SI if required to tighten up the legislation .

sinnerboy

Smcgie wrote: »

I love the way to tear a thread apart when its wrong :P

I'll take that as a compliment

brianmacl

No6 wrote: »

Brian I think you're living in the wrong Country if every assessor currently registered (About 1200 of them) did 1000 assessments a year there would be 1,200,000 sales and rentals a year!!!! do we even have that many houses in the country!!! Could we invade England perhaps!!! or Spain the weather is better!!!:D

I don't think that the 1,200 registered Assessors or the other 1,200 that are going to be registered over the next while are going to work in this area full time or even close to full time. Further more those numbers are a bit more of a mind experiment than actual reality but, it does show that there is scope for further drops in price but I believe that the SEI's fee €25 + VAT fee per property has made any further drop in price quite difficult.

muffler

brianmacl wrote: »

but I believe that the SEI's fee €25 + VAT fee per property has made any further drop in price quite difficult.

I think thats a very lame excuse to use.

brianmacl

sinnerboy wrote: »

You may well have a point in law , i simply don't know . New legislation is often found to have weaknesses when tested in courts we know that .

But this will not change matters much , BER is here to stay . Perhaps a test case may trigger a Minister to issue short amending SI if required to tighten up the legislation .

I do have a point of law:), one that SEI have been made aware of and are unable to answer at this point but will probably result in an amendment to SI666. The point is until the amendment comes, SI666 may be fately weak and unenforcable. If a test case was brought it would probably be thrown out in less than 5 minutes along with any future cases until the amendment.