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DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)
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And only your second post too. I can see we are going to have some fun with you. If you want to post here be a bit more civilised. Infracted.mantoreilly wrote: »That’s bull****.0 -
Yeah - sounds like a bit of a rip-off at those sort of figures! A big FO I think. I thought, as suggested above, it might be a voluntary association. I wonder what SEIs view on this is?
I suspect these 'associations' are being set up by people who thought they could make a career out of BERs but have now realised the truth! Nice little earner! Don't see any real advantage to it - probably more than enough information here on Boards.
I have been registered since February but have only had 1 enquiry about doing a BER (I have not actually done one!). I suspect SEI may have assessors dropping off the registration list next year?
I too have been registered since late last year and so far have had few enquiries and virtually all of them were for people with existing houses looking for BER certs on them. In fact I have turned off my google add words campagin due to the extremely poor response.
People do not understand what the BER cert is and what its for at all. I am doing a number of certs for houses under construction most of which I designed but i will be suprised if I have any finalised before the end of the year. I definately think assessors need an association but its got to be run by assessors for assessors on a voluntary basis at no cost untill the whole system gets up and running.
Being a BER assessor was pushed as an alternative career for people by all the training providers which it obviously is not for most of the assessors involved. I cant wait for the next SEI assessors workshop!!!:D0 -
And it still is by all and sundry! A few weeks back I remember someone on Today FMs Last Word suggesting that this could be an outlet for some of the construction headz that are out of work.Being a BER assessor was pushed as an alternative career for people by all the training providers which it obviously is not for most of the assessors involved. I cant wait for the next SEI assessors workshop!!!:D
All in favour of deregulated/free market industry - but there should be accurate & responsible info being put out - as people are wasting a lot of time, money and effort if they go forward for training, registration and basic business setup - when they could have been doing the same with something that theres an adequate demand for..0 -
I dont know if ive posted this before but...
With the introduction of the 'new dwellings' regulation last 1st july, there came a requirement for a DEAP assessment to be done on a dwelling in order for a certifier to certify that the build is in compliance with building regs, namely Part L.
Now i can see a situation where either the certifer or his/her office will be/have a registered BER assessor on hand to do these calculations. Thus when the BER cert is required the certifier will be the one requested to publish it. This will push out the 'yellow-pack' assessors and also some independant assessor, unless somehow 'tied' with certifiers. the reason for this is simple, why would a client pay twice for the same service???
The argument may be made that the BER assessors report will show compliance or non-compliance, but i, for one, cannot see why certifiers, who would have visited the dwelling during the build, would accept a statement of compliance from an assessor who wouldnt have visited the build and may not be educted from a construction background. Also, many offices would like to be able to offer the client a 'one-stop shop' service.
This will push independent assessors into either the non-dwelling sector, which is HIGHLY restrictive as regards initial education competencies, or the 'existing dwellings' sector..... which i can see becoming dog-eat-dog, with estate agents creating a nice little cartel between themselves because of the apparent lack of necessity to declare independence.
Therefore, i see the future of BER assessments for new builds in a positive light, with assessments being prepared by competant construction professionals. However the 'existing dwelling' BER may fall into disrepute unless SEI can stamp authoruty over the independence of assessors.0 -
Post of the day Syd...
Thats more or less the situation as I see it.
As someone mentioned already, there is going to be some crack at then next assessors work shop.0 -
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sydthebeat wrote: »with estate agents creating a nice little cartel between themselves because of the apparent lack of necessity to declare independence.
You can throw the renewable energy installers in here too, they'll be improving everyone's energy rating by selling the most expensive renewable system they have to every poor householder they can get their hands on.
The SEI need to follow up on the the assessors code of conduct and find a few who are in breech of it and throw them out. I may be wrong but i would think that estate agents have a financial interest in the value of a property.0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »I dont know if ive posted this before but...
With the introduction of the 'new dwellings' regulation last 1st july, there came a requirement for a DEAP assessment to be done on a dwelling in order for a certifier to certify that the build is in compliance with building regs, namely Part L.
Now i can see a situation where either the certifer or his/her office will be/have a registered BER assessor on hand to do these calculations. Thus when the BER cert is required the certifier will be the one requested to publish it. This will push out the 'yellow-pack' assessors and also some independant assessor, unless somehow 'tied' with certifiers. the reason for this is simple, why would a client pay twice for the same service???
The argument may be made that the BER assessors report will show compliance or non-compliance, but i, for one, cannot see why certifiers, who would have visited the dwelling during the build, would accept a statement of compliance from an assessor who wouldnt have visited the build and may not be educted from a construction background. Also, many offices would like to be able to offer the client a 'one-stop shop' service.
This will push independent assessors into either the non-dwelling sector, which is HIGHLY restrictive as regards initial education competencies, or the 'existing dwellings' sector..... which i can see becoming dog-eat-dog, with estate agents creating a nice little cartel between themselves because of the apparent lack of necessity to declare independence.
Therefore, i see the future of BER assessments for new builds in a positive light, with assessments being prepared by competant construction professionals. However the 'existing dwelling' BER may fall into disrepute unless SEI can stamp authoruty over the independence of assessors.
All true . My initial reservations that BER will simply be " a thing you ( meaning architects) do anyway" will come to pass . No additional income stream . Just more expense more liability , less return0 -
I would say SYD is probably correct, but I do think there is an increasing number of people building one off homes who don't engage an Architect as such, a lot of people know someone who does drawings on the side i.e. someone who knows how to do a planning application and will draw plans, they also know someone who will do the stage payments and now most likely they will get to know someone who does certs.
A lot of people rather deal with 2 or 3 people rather than relying on 1 person for everything and tbh anyone I know that has used an architect has had the issue of slow response. I used a mate for for my drawings, I used a contact for stage payments and if I wanted a BER cert I know someone who would do it and all 3 added together would be cheaper than using an architect. So while the market may be small there is a market imo0 -
The following is an Email I sent to the SEI in November 2006.They were aware of some of the pitfalls before the implementation of the EPBD directive
To whom it may concern.
>Is it the SEI intention to have all 2000 assessors trained within the first
>year of implementation or will training be phased? It has been suggested
>that full time assessors will be required .150, 000 units a year divided by
2000 at 100 Euros covers the cost of the course it is hardly a career
>option an average nixer at best.
>Also the current available course only covers new build. Will another 2000
>euro plus another 1000 euro to the SEI be required to complete a course for
>existing dwellings?
>Is it true that the SEI definition of an independent assessor allows for an
>architect to provide a certificate on his own design also will the larger
>construction companies provide independent assessors from within their own
>ranks to assess their own work?
>Is it true that energy certificates will be calculated from drawings
>without an as built survey? As an engineer working in Ireland it is common practice
>to make amendments to a drawing by fax the building
>in a lot of cases does not resemble the original drawings.
>Will measuring off drawings be sufficient to provide an accurate energy assessment?
>Talking to a number of people involved in the construction industry >who have closely followed the
>EPBD directive. It is the general consensus that the SEI have not been forthcoming
>about how this directive will effect individual assessors many asking can we make
>a living from this? One individual who is on the SEI mailing list suggested
>to me that all messages from the SEI should be treated as spams and deleted
>as such. It is beginning to look like a money making racket only its
>government funded. 2,000,000 to the SEI is a handy windfall. I look forward
>to your reply0 -
Can you tell us the point of this post or what exactly are you trying to say?mantoreilly wrote: »The following is an Email I sent to the SEI in November 2006.They were aware of some of the pitfalls before the implementation of the EPBD directive
To whom it may concern.
>Is it the SEI intention to have all 2000 assessors trained within the first
>year of implementation or will training be phased? It has been suggested
>that full time assessors will be required .150, 000 units a year divided by
2000 at 100 Euros covers the cost of the course it is hardly a career
>option an average nixer at best.
>Also the current available course only covers new build. Will another 2000
>euro plus another 1000 euro to the SEI be required to complete a course for
>existing dwellings?
>Is it true that the SEI definition of an independent assessor allows for an
>architect to provide a certificate on his own design also will the larger
>construction companies provide independent assessors from within their own
>ranks to assess their own work?
>Is it true that energy certificates will be calculated from drawings
>without an as built survey? As an engineer working in Ireland it is common practice
>to make amendments to a drawing by fax the building
>in a lot of cases does not resemble the original drawings.
>Will measuring off drawings be sufficient to provide an accurate energy assessment?
>Talking to a number of people involved in the construction industry >who have closely followed the
>EPBD directive. It is the general consensus that the SEI have not been forthcoming
>about how this directive will effect individual assessors many asking can we make
>a living from this? One individual who is on the SEI mailing list suggested
>to me that all messages from the SEI should be treated as spams and deleted
>as such. It is beginning to look like a money making racket only its
>government funded. 2,000,000 to the SEI is a handy windfall. I look forward
>to your reply
Posting an email that is nearly 2 years old is a bit confusing.
Please also post in the reply box instead of copying and pasting from another doc.0 -
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Calm down.Dont be sooo padantic.0
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No calming needed at all. You either post in a civilised manner and post something thats sensible or you wont post here at all.mantoreilly wrote: »Calm down.Dont be sooo padantic.
You have got an infraction for your outburst above and if there's any more you will be history.
Now take that as a final warning and its not up for debate on this thread.0 -
mantoreilly wrote: »>Is it true that the SEI definition of an independent assessor allows for an
>architect to provide a certificate on his own design
Being one providing certs for my own designs I don't see a problem with it as I am certifying compliance for the building anyway, dont forget the engineers and surveyors they certify their own designs too!! What was your issue with it? In generaly though you wen't too far off on the issues you raised even if it was two years ago, I think its become more of a money making racket for the training providers etc,I think there's some training providers out there who would train my dog if I paid them or got FAS to fund him!!!, I nearly sent him to the bank for a loan last year :rolleyes:
SEI in slight (very slight) fairness to them have reduced the annual registration fee from the original annual 500 to 100, (Initial registration is still to be 1000)0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »I dont know if ive posted this before but...
With the introduction of the 'new dwellings' regulation last 1st july, there came a requirement for aDEAP assessment to be done on a dwelling in order for a certifier to certify that the build is in compliance with building regs, namely Part L.
As far as I can see from Part L is that the calculated energy & carbon are 'limited' and proven by CALCULATING - not CERTIFYING by DEAPNow i can see a situation where either the certifer or his/her office will be/have a registered BER assessor on hand to do these calculations.
I think ANYONE can complete a DEAP calculation for design purposes - a 'registered BER Assessor' is not a requirement.Thus when the BER cert is required the certifier will be the one requested to publish it. This will push out the 'yellow-pack' assessors and also some independant assessor, unless somehow 'tied' with certifiers. the reason for this is simple, why would a client pay twice for the same service???
This is the crux of the issue - A BER CERTIFICATE WILL BE REQUIRED - and is being thought about - after the event. I would say that most architectural practices have sent at least one member of staff on a BER course - but has the been qualified - are the able enough to produce a competent certificate?The argument may be made that the BER assessors report will show compliance or non-compliance, but i, for one, cannot see why certifiers, who would have visited the dwelling during the build, would accept a statement of compliance from an assessor who wouldnt have visited the build and may not be educted from a construction background. Also, many offices would like to be able to offer the client a 'one-stop shop' service.
This stands for the production of a BER - not for a compliance calculation - a compliance CERT does not have to be produced. The question is - would a BER assessor take written/statement of build PERFORMANCE from a builder - thermal bridging/permeability for instance without evidence being produced?
I think to be honest that the BER's lot will not be an easy one - they will be seen by architects and builders as the bad-guy - the one who's putting the pressure on for evidence - unless of course that evidence has been collated during the design & build process. It is evident that this is the most practical way of issuing an accurate BER. The question is - can you get paid for that work. IF NOT - WILL ANY/ENOUGH EVIDENCE BE FORWARDED TO YOU? and in the form of what?
This will push independent assessors into either the non-dwelling sector, which is HIGHLY restrictive as regards initial education competencies, or the 'existing dwellings' sector..... which i can see becoming dog-eat-dog, with estate agents creating a nice little cartel between themselves because of the apparent lack of necessity to declare independence.
Therefore, i see the future of BER assessments for new builds in a positive light, with assessments being prepared by competant construction professionals. However the 'existing dwelling' BER may fall into disrepute unless SEI can stamp authoruty over the independence of assessors.
YOu have to remember that when doing the existing sector that the standard of insulation/build/technologies were so basic that difference in any of them whilst inputting will make practically no difference to a bad label any way. 2 inches of fibre in a roof space will get the same label as 3" and probably 4" - the same with the walls - and a wide margin of boiler efficiencies also.
They're also the jobs that you'll make the biggest impact on in the label - and the homeowner by throwing insulation in the loft/insulating pipework and putting a cylinder jacket on and putting draught strip around the door - NOW - there's where you'll get teh feel good factor in you task as a BER assessor - and perhaps the odd hug - I'm not expecting to get any from building contractors!!!0 -
So if already registered for New build, renewal will only be 100? Will they be looking for another additional registration fee of 1k for existing build when that comes on stream - for those of us already reg'ed for existing??SEI in slight (very slight) fairness to them have reduced the annual registration fee from the original annual 500 to 100, (Initial registration is still to be 1000)0 -
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As far as I can see from Part L is that the calculated energy & carbon are 'limited' and proven by CALCULATING - not CERTIFYING by DEAP
yes, the calculation is done with DEAP but the certification is doneby teh certifier. The certifier will use the results in DEAP to see whether it passes or not. DEAP has the facility (or will have when its upgraded) to show compliance or non compliance.I think ANYONE can complete a DEAP calculation for design purposes - a 'registered BER Assessor' is not a requirement.
again, technicially correct, but my point is that, in my view, these assessments will be done by the assessor, because the client wouldnt/shouldnt have to pay twice for the same service. It would actually result in a much more exact and proper assessment if the assessment is done by a trained construction professional in an architectural or engineering office (who understands what BR 443 is!!), who has been on site at various stages to inspect the build, thus confirming or not the issues you raised such as thermal bridging factors etc. It would actually lead to a more continuity of the project as the DEAP calculation can be done initially from design plans, something which architectural offices should be doing anyway!!.This is the crux of the issue - A BER CERTIFICATE WILL BE REQUIRED - and is being thought about - after the event. I would say that most architectural practices have sent at least one member of staff on a BER course - but has the been qualified - are the able enough to produce a competent certificate?
I would have more faith in a member of an architectural office being able to product a competent cert, that someone coming from a non-construction background ie estate agents, farmers, soldiers etc.
I agree that its somewhat counterproductive that the BER is only officially required after the 'event'. Most information thats required to complete the assessment is to be provided by a non-construction person.1. I think to be honest that the BER's lot will not be an easy one - they will be seen by architects and builders as the bad-guy - the one who's putting the pressure on for evidence -
2. unless of course that evidence has been collated during the design & build process. It is evident that this is the most practical way of issuing an accurate BER.
3. The question is - can you get paid for that work. IF NOT - WILL ANY/ENOUGH EVIDENCE BE FORWARDED TO YOU? and in the form of what?
1. Not if the BER assessor is the architect or a member of the office, and theres a co-relation between ensuring the builders best practises before issuing of stage payments.
2. yes, completely. unfortunately theres no legal / practical requirement for this.
3. Yes, if you can absorb it into a joint inspection / BER engagement. No, if solely a BER engagement....0 -
No definately only 100 annual renewal, of course you do have to pass the SEI exam, perhaps the SEI have found significant differences in the training and competencies of the various people who have done the trainins, there should have been an independant exam from the very start.So if already registered for New build, renewal will only be 100? Will they be looking for another additional registration fee of 1k for existing build when that comes on stream - for those of us already reg'ed for existing??
There is also now 3144 people trained as assessors (SEI's August Report) with 722 registered assessors. A lot of people who have done the training are not registereing as they are realising there is not a new career here and at best it will be an add on service for the marority of people.
They only give percentages of ratings achieved so far not numbers, I'd love to know how many BER's are now published on the register as in April it was only around 500.
The existing dwellings will be a messy market for a while, landlords and sellers will have to get certs done to sell or rent their house and will be only interersted in getting them done as cheaply as possible, householders who don't actually need them (unless they're going for a grant) will want them done in conjunction with improvement works they're think about but they definately need an assessor who is not a renewable eneregy installer!! It will probably be quite busy next year with all existing dwellings on the market being done in a short time but then it will level off again, of course knowing most people they wouldnt actually get the BER cert done untill someone has actually made an offer on the property which could be a while in the current climate.0 -
YOu have to remember that when doing the existing sector that the standard of insulation/build/technologies were so basic that difference in any of them whilst inputting will make practically no difference to a bad label any way. 2 inches of fibre in a roof space will get the same label as 3" and probably 4" - the same with the walls - and a wide margin of boiler efficiencies also.
They're also the jobs that you'll make the biggest impact on in the label - and the homeowner by throwing insulation in the loft/insulating pipework and putting a cylinder jacket on and putting draught strip around the door - NOW - there's where you'll get teh feel good factor in you task as a BER assessor - and perhaps the odd hug - I'm not expecting to get any from building contractors!!!
I have done a good few as part of the HESS Pilot and the impression i got from a lot of people is that this is only hassle they dont need. I felt that some were under the impression that as an assessor i would have some magic formula that wouldnt involve adding any insulation in attic or walls (predominantly drylining stone). The homes which most need the work done are also the ones who can least afford it in my experience so far.
PS. I didnt get any hugs as yet0 -
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My issue at time was with the term independent. You cannot be independent if you have a vested interest in somthing.It goes against the definition of the word.Being one providing certs for my own designs I don't see a problem with it as I am certifying compliance for the building anyway, dont forget the engineers and surveyors they certify their own designs too!! What was your issue with it? In generaly though you wen't too far off on the issues you raised even if it was two years ago, I think its become more of a money making racket for the training providers etc,I think there's some training providers out there who would train my dog if I paid them or got FAS to fund him!!!, I nearly sent him to the bank for a loan last year :rolleyes:
SEI in slight (very slight) fairness to them have reduced the annual registration fee from the original annual 500 to 100, (Initial registration is still to be 1000)0 -
As a professional who is signing off on the building we are supposed to be independant already, other than our professional fees (which we would get irrespective of an A or a G rating) we wouldn't have a financial interest in a building and are therefore independant with no vested interest in to building. On the other hand if you are an auctioneer whos fees are based on a % of the sale price or a renewable energy supplier who sell nice expensive kit to improve your rating then you would have a vested interet in the building. Thats not to say that there wouldnd't be a few in the professions who would have an interst a development and abuse the system, there's a few bad eggs in every basket, just look at the legal profession this year.mantoreilly wrote: »My issue at time was with the term independent. You cannot be independent if you have a vested interest in somthing.It goes against the definition of the word.0 -
mantoreilly wrote: »My issue at time was with the term independent. You cannot be independent if you have a vested interest in somthing.It goes against the definition of the word.
I agree with No6 on this. As a designer one already has an objective of designing the best performance. Doing the BER dosnt change this it just makes the designer more aware of what is required.0 -
question for those who have completed a training course....
does a kitchen diner account for the living area fraction if its the largest public room??
when i did my training it was explained that it was to be included... however, a collegue who recently completed a course was taught NOT to include it if there is another room marked 'living' or 'lounge' etc even if itis larger.....
what are others experience of this??0 -
my understanding is that the living room does not include the dining room unless they are both in the one space eg open plan. The kitchen/ Dining is not the living room even if it is the largest room. The living room will be kept at 21'C the rest of home is kept at 18'C.0
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From The manual - I think you count the kitchen/diner ( as the relevant area ) so Syd
7.2 Living area fraction
The living area is the room marked on a plan as the lounge or living room, or the largest public room (irrespective of usage by particular occupants), together with any rooms not separated from the lounge or living room by doors, and including any cupboards directly accessed from the lounge or living room. Living area does not, however, extend over more than one storey, even when stairs enter the living area directly.0 -
SB I disagree with your interpetation of the words "largest public room". When you take into account the reason for calc the area of the living room (Mean internal temp) it becomes apparent that they mean the room which would normally be kept at a higher temp than the rest of the dwelling. This would not be a Kitchen/Dining.
I think what they mean by "largest public room" is when you have a choice of two or more living/ Lounge/ Tv/ Games/Play/ room you then take the largest.0 -
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the reason i ask is because i did one of the first courses and was taught that the kitchen diner could be included......
also, why would the kitchen diner not be heated at 20-21 deg?? its a public room probably used more often than a living room.
Ill email SEI for clarification0
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