Cashless Society

bonkey · 27-02-2008 2:14pm

So it can turn my coins into a credit receipt that I can hand up at the checkout....which doesn't cost me anything in privacy.

The previous point I made was relevant to the previous post...that the system could issue a voucher card with the credit on it.

So basically, it seems I have three options:

1) Get a receipt, go the the cashier, get cash. No privacy implication.
2) Get a voucher-card, which is anonymous. No privacy implication.
3) Load a smart-card, which is not necessarily anonymous and could have privacy implications.

So in 2 of the three options, and regardless of whether or not cash is issued for my coinage, there are no privacy implications.

IN other words...like so many of these other alleged-doomsday scenarios, we find that in actual fact, you only sacrifice your anonymity should you choose to.

oscarBravo · 27-02-2008 2:45pm

I'm still curious how this company is going to take cash out of circulation.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-02-2008 3:14pm

bonkey wrote: »

So it can turn my coins into a credit receipt that I can hand up at the checkout....which doesn't cost me anything in privacy.

The previous point I made was relevant to the previous post...that the system could issue a voucher card with the credit on it.

So basically, it seems I have three options:

1) Get a receipt, go the the cashier, get cash. No privacy implication.
2) Get a voucher-card, which is anonymous. No privacy implication.
3) Load a smart-card, which is not necessarily anonymous and could have privacy implications.

So in 2 of the three options, and regardless of whether or not cash is issued for my coinage, there are no privacy implications.

IN other words...like so many of these other alleged-doomsday scenarios, we find that in actual fact, you only sacrifice your anonymity should you choose to.

Remove the privilages of option 1 and 2 and then you are left with with option 3.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm still curious how this company is going to take cash out of circulation.

It is just one means of discretly moving cash out of society abd charging you for it at the same time. Check out their website, they encourage you to collect coins from around the house.

djpbarry · 27-02-2008 3:28pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Remove the privilages of option 1 and 2 and then you are left with with option 3.

So you're assuming that they WILL be removed, even though this would most likely inconvenience a large number of customers?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It is just one means of discretly moving cash out of society abd charging you for it at the same time.

You still have not explained how exactly this company is taking coins out of circulation?

humanji · 27-02-2008 3:29pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Remove the privilages of option 1 and 2 and then you are left with with option 3.

And if you remove option 3, you're left with options 1 and 2. You're making a mountain out of a flat peice of land, tbh.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It is just one means of discretly moving cash out of society abd charging you for it at the same time. Check out their website, they encourage you to collect coins from around the house.

They're not moving cash out of society. They are collecting small change and replacing it with notes. This change is then given to the banks who send it back into circulation.

bonkey · 27-02-2008 3:59pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Remove the privilages of option 1 and 2 and then you are left with with option 3.

Correct. As humanji pointed out, remove option 3 and you're left with options 1 and 2. Remove option...well, you get the idea. We all know how to subtract options from a set of them.

You argue that this is all a plot to remove cash and force us to use traceable systems. Your justification for this is that if all cash options are removed, all that remains are traceable systems. No-one questions that logic from a mathematical standpoint, but rather the grounds on which you base your belief that this is what will happen.

So far it seems to be that what we've been given is more choice. What the next generation will give us is even more choice. You look at all of this and conclude that we're being given more ways to do things so that some of those choices can be removed.

Here's a quick test...can you thnk of any method of transferring money which has ceased to exist since, say, the start of the 20th century? Some (such as the use of cheques, or wiring money) may be less common, but still exist....but honestly...if you think this is all a plot to remove choice, then show precedent. Show that choice has been removed.

It is just one means of discretly moving cash out of

People have been claiming that electronic money transactions have been a plot to remove hard cash from society since their inception. To date....it hasn't happened. Instead, we have more choice than ever.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-02-2008 4:10pm

humanji wrote: »

And if you remove option 3, you're left with options 1 and 2. You're making a mountain out of a flat peice of land, tbh..

Option 3 is unfortunitally the way our society is heading whether you like it or not. We are alreadyy gearing up for cashless toll booths and an intrigrated smart card transit service. As soon as the majority of the population have baught into this card system as a "convenience" the cash options will be eliminated.

humanji wrote: »

They're not moving cash out of society. They are collecting small change and replacing it with notes. This change is then given to the banks who send it back into circulation.

I said it is a subtle means of removing cash. People are not going to waste time and take their jam jars of cash down to the bank, the Central Bank had enough difficulty chasing old Irish coins after the Euro was introduced.

If the World bank/ EU/ US Government whatever was to suddenly demanded that cash no longer to be legal tender and demand that each country remove it, there would be widespread suspicion, uproar and protests. By gradually removing from society and subtly introducing "wonderful" smart cards people are not going to notice at all. If you are going to poison someone you are not going to give them a bottle of cyanide and say drink this, you will put poison their meat!!

djpbarry · 27-02-2008 4:14pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

As soon as the majority of the population has baught into this card system as a "convenience" the cash options will be removed.

You mean the way people bought into the convenience of a credit card? Or a debit card? Still plenty of cash transactions taking place...

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I said it is a subtle means of removing cash.

How?!? Who is this company "subtly" taking cash out of circulation?

humanji · 27-02-2008 4:20pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Option 3 is unfortunitally the way our society is heading whether you like it or not. We are alreadyy gearing up for cashless toll booths and an intrigrated smart card transit service. As soon as the majority of the population has baught into this card system as a "convenience" the cash options will be removed. I said it is a subtle means of removing cash.

Again, this is just another unwarranted assumption. There is nothing but paranoia saying that this will happen. I think it was Bonkey who pointed out before that it's always been "10 years away".

You have taken a line in the bible and twisted it to mean that everyone will have chips in there head or arm. Because of this, you're assuming that it must happen and it must happen soon. And that is ignoring the fact that the bible doesn't actually have a timescale for any of this. You're interpreting the facts to mean what you want them to.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

People are not going to weaste time and take their jam jars of cash down to the bank, the Central Bank had enough difficulty chasing old Irish coins after the Euro was introduced.

But people bring their jam jars of cash to banks all the time. And it's unlikely to stop any time soon. And the central bank didn't really have any problem chasing down coins. They gave a cut off date and let people come to them. Simple as that, really.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If the World bank/ EU/ US Government whatever was to suddenly demanded that cash no longer to be legal tender and demand that each country remove it, there would be widespread suspicion, uproar and protests. By gradually removing from society and subtly introducing "wonderful" smart cards people are not going to notice at all. If you are going to poison someone you are not going to give them a bottle of cyanide and say drink this, you will put poison their meat!!

This is nothing but a theory, though. You have nothing but assumptions on your side.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-02-2008 5:20pm

humanji wrote: »

Again, this is just another unwarranted assumption. There is nothing but paranoia saying that this will happen. I think it was Bonkey who pointed out before that it's always been "10 years away".

You have taken a line in the bible and twisted it to mean that everyone will have chips in there head or arm. Because of this, you're assuming that it must happen and it must happen soon. And that is ignoring the fact that the bible doesn't actually have a timescale for any of this. You're interpreting the facts to mean what you want them to. .

When the Bible states that one day you will need a character in your hand in order to make a commercial transaction it is going to happen whether you like to believe it or not and it will happen. I dont like putting times on prophecys but the technology to make such a system happen has only recently been availible and particularly since september 11th has the global political climate being ripe for such a tight security system to be implimented.

humanji · 27-02-2008 5:47pm

Those profecys can be interpreted in many many different ways, meaning many different things. It's the same with all prophecies. They're all vague enought so that they can be interpreted to fit certain events.

You assume they are coming true, so you are fitting any available evidence to fit your arguement. It's happened everytime people have claimed the coming of the end. It's happened for hundreds of years (at least). And for some reason, you assume because RFID is available, there's no alternative to having them installed in us. It's a bizarre conclusion to jump to.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-02-2008 6:21pm

humanji wrote: »

Those profecys can be interpreted in many many different ways, meaning many different things. It's the same with all prophecies. They're all vague enought so that they can be interpreted to fit certain events.

You assume they are coming true, so you are fitting any available evidence to fit your arguement. It's happened everytime people have claimed the coming of the end. It's happened for hundreds of years (at least). And for some reason, you assume because RFID is available, there's no alternative to having them installed in us. It's a bizarre conclusion to jump to.

Many believed that the "mark of the beast" was something back in Neros time. However the "mark" in question is IN the hand or IN the forhead and not on the hand. Corrupt modern Bibles state that the mark is on which could be some dab of paint inforced by Nero. Another factor, Nero or anyother empire in the past was local. What we have now is a Global government. Another coincidence is that the guard bars of every UPC/EAN code have contained the number 666 in it since 1974.

We are told to be vigilant and watch out for this number which involves "wisdom". The bar code which started off as a voluntary stock takling aid is now used in global commerce and is now manditory in almost every country on this planet and serious fines are imposed globally for its mis use. I do not believe the Barcode is the mark in question however I do believe it is a lead up to the next development.

Actual advertisemnt from IBM the same company that developed the Hollerith punch card technology for counting up Jews for extermination during WW2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDyqhcy1L-0

bonkey · 27-02-2008 6:53pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Another coincidence is that the guard bars of every UPC/EAN code have contained the number 666 in it since 1974.

If, as you believe, the barcode isn't what the bible prophecies, then...so what?

We are told to be vigilant and watch out for this number which involves "wisdom".

The bar code which started off as a voluntary stock takling aid is now used in global commerce and is now manditory in almost every country on this planet and serious fines are imposed globally for its mis use.

There are no such "serious fines" imposed globally for the misuse of barcodes. And no...barcodes are not mandatory in almost every country on the planet.

Actual advertisemnt from IBM

Wow...an advertisement showing one shopper using RFID where a ton of others queue up normally, doing shopping the old-fashioned way. Seems just like what I and others have been saying - the new possibilities will be offered in addition to existing methods of payment.

Not only that, but it shows teh goods being scanned remotely. It doesn't for a second suggest that the auld dear has a chip in her hand or in her forehead which is how she paid.

humanji · 27-02-2008 8:04pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Many believed that the "mark of the beast" was something back in Neros time. However the "mark" in question is IN the hand or IN the forhead and not on the hand. Corrupt modern Bibles state that the mark is on which could be some dab of paint inforced by Nero. Another factor, Nero or anyother empire in the past was local. What we have now is a Global government.

So this global government controls the entire world now does it? Every country on the planet bows down before it? Or is it just like all the other empires throughout history, just on a larger scale? We're a long way off one global government.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Another coincidence is that the guard bars of every UPC/EAN code have contained the number 666 in it since 1974.

This was debunked in the thread on the Christianity forum. The bars don't contain 666.

Actual advertisemnt from IBM the same company that developed the Hollerith punch card technology for counting up Jews for extermination during WW2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDyqhcy1L-0[/quote]

A slight misrepresentation of the truth here, IBM developed the technology which was used for counting the Jews. They didn't develop it for that purpose.

meglome · 27-02-2008 8:05pm

Seriously Run_to_da_hills you're a professional muck thrower. You just keep flinging it in the hope something will stick eventually. Nearly all of your theories have been shown in here to have little or no merit. But you keep flinging, well I respect your perseverance if nothing else (and there really is nothing else). I really really wouldn't want to inhabit the super paranoid world you live in. Honestly not trying to insult you, just making an observation.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-02-2008 8:46pm

bonkey wrote: »

There are no such "serious fines" imposed globally for the misuse of barcodes. And no...barcodes are not mandatory in almost every country on the planet.

Re Fines http://fzj.sz.gov.cn/en/246.asp Article 19, 20, 21. I said the UPC/EAN manditory in almost every country. Name any one country in the world that dose not comply to EAN or UPC?.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-02-2008 9:14pm

humanji wrote: »

We're a long way off one global government.

so, whether its 5 years or 50 years its still coming.

humanji wrote: »

This was debunked in the thread on the Christianity forum. The bars don't contain 666. .

It was never debunked in the Christianity forum. Just that some people were unable to work out a simple mathematical problem. Of the thousands of both religious and secular websites on this subject I have only found a handful of websites disputed thhe theory and these came from sceptics with absolutly no foundation most were very poorly presented.

humanji wrote: »

A slight misrepresentation of the truth here, IBM developed the technology which was used for counting the Jews. They didn't develop it for that purpose.

The IBM and NAZI link http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

Run_to_da_hills · 27-02-2008 9:25pm

meglome wrote: »

Seriously Run_to_da_hills you're a professional muck thrower. You just keep flinging it in the hope something will stick eventually. Nearly all of your theories have been shown in here to have little or no merit. But you keep flinging, well I respect your perseverance if nothing else (and there really is nothing else). I really really wouldn't want to inhabit the super paranoid world you live in. Honestly not trying to insult you, just making an observation.

You would probably be the very person that would sit back and admire George Bush and his global policies twards "fighting terrorism".

humanji · 27-02-2008 10:05pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

so, whether its 5 years or 50 years its still coming.

Any evidence of that other than a book who's validity can fairly easily be called into question?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It was never debunked in the Christianity forum. Just that some people were unable to work out a simple mathematical problem. Of the thousands of both religious and secular websites on this subject I have only found a handful of websites disputed thhe theory and these came from sceptics with absolutly no foundation most were very poorly presented.

Yes it was debunked, you just refuse to acknowledge it. The only way barcodes can have the 666 as is described is if you completely misread barcodes. Barcodes are made up of lines and spaces. You have to completely ignore the spaces to get the 666 and by then, the barcode is no longer valid. It's simple to understand and was described in detail over and over before.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The IBM and NAZI link http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

Again, IBM technology was used. IBM didn't make it for the holocaust. Even read the article. It was subsiduary comapnies in Germany. There's are German companies that work for the German government who have a connection to IBM. It's like blaming me for the IRA because I'm also Irish.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-02-2008 10:29pm

humanji wrote: »

Yes it was debunked, you just refuse to acknowledge it. The only way barcodes can have the 666 as is described is if you completely misread barcodes. Barcodes are made up of lines and spaces. You have to completely ignore the spaces to get the 666 and by then, the barcode is no longer valid. It's simple to understand and was described in detail over and over before.

It may not be identified through a scanner as "666" but to the eye it is obvious when you break down the codes. You have yet to show me a web site with detailed explained charts debunking this theory. I have been aware of this hidden code along with millions of others around the world. whether you believe in it or not it dosent bother me.

humanji wrote: »

Again, IBM technology was used. IBM didn't make it for the holocaust. Even read the article. It was subsiduary comapnies in Germany. There's are German companies that work for the German government who have a connection to IBM. It's like blaming me for the IRA because I'm also Irish.

Read Edwin Black's book "IBM and the Holocaust". interesting stuff.

oscarBravo · 28-02-2008 12:16am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It may not be identified through a scanner as "666" but to the eye it is obvious when you break down the codes.

Barcodes are not intended to be read by the eye, but by a scanner. They have no meaning, except to a barcode scanner. If the scanner can't read "666" in a barcode, it's not there.

Run_to_da_hills · 28-02-2008 1:08am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Barcodes are not intended to be read by the eye, but by a scanner. They have no meaning, except to a barcode scanner. If the scanner can't read "666" in a barcode, it's not there.

Scripture says nothing about scanners. It mentions of a mark synonymous with buying and selling. The UPC/EAN Bar code is a mark and is synonymous with buying and selling. It also mentions of a numerical combination to be calculated within that said mark which equivilates to the number 666. This number can be manually calculated by working out a simple binary mathematical calculation (Without the aid of a scanner or a computer) This number has been incorporated in every UPC/EAN barcode since 1974..

meglome · 28-02-2008 2:21am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You would probably be the very person that would sit back and admire George Bush and his global policies twards "fighting terrorism".

No I certainly wouldn't be doing "that".

Can I assume you believe that the fact the Gardai use the numbers 666 at the beginning of their phones numbers is also a link to some sort of evil? Since at least that really is 666, as opposed to those bar codes which haven't actually got 666 in them.

meglome · 28-02-2008 2:25am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Scripture says nothing about scanners. It mentions of a mark synonymous with buying and selling. The UPC/EAN Bar code is a mark and is synonymous with buying and selling. It also mentions of a numerical combination to be calculated within that said mark which equivilates to the number 666. This number can be manually calculated by working out a simple binary mathematical calculation (Without the aid of a scanner or a computer) This number has been incorporated in every UPC/EAN barcode since 1974..

Going by this you could potentially find 666 almost anywhere, which seems to make it meaningless (if it wasn't already).

oscarBravo · 28-02-2008 10:47am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Scripture says nothing about scanners. It mentions of a mark synonymous with buying and selling. The UPC/EAN Bar code is a mark and is synonymous with buying and selling. It also mentions of a numerical combination to be calculated within that said mark which equivilates to the number 666. This number can be manually calculated by working out a simple binary mathematical calculation (Without the aid of a scanner or a computer) This number has been incorporated in every UPC/EAN barcode since 1974..

No, it hasn't.

You're claiming something is there by, in essence, redefining the alphabet. You're incorrectly claiming that two narrow bars with a space between them represent the digit 6. This isn't true.

A UPC barcode consists of spaces and bars. All the spaces and bars are multiples of a nominal width. I'll represent the spaces, bars and their respective widths using 's' for a single-unit space and 'B' for a single-unit bar.

The start guard pattern is BsB. The end guard pattern is the same. The centre guard pattern is sBsBs.

Before the centre guard, the digit 6 is represented by sBsBssss. After the centre guard, it's represented by BsBsBBBB.

Looking at the barcode, the start and end guards, and part of the centre guard, look like part of the digit 6 - but only as it's represented after the centre guard.

So, no: the digits 666 are not included in a barcode.

humanji · 28-02-2008 11:00am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It may not be identified through a scanner as "666" but to the eye it is obvious when you break down the codes. You have yet to show me a web site with detailed explained charts debunking this theory. I have been aware of this hidden code along with millions of others around the world. whether you believe in it or not it dosent bother me. Read Edwin Black's book "IBM and the Holocaust". interesting stuff.

Why is a website with charts needed when it's very simple. OscarBravo has explained it to you. You're misrepresenting what "6" is in a barcode. You're seeing something similar and that's good enough for you.

bonkey · 28-02-2008 11:03am

So I had a look at that link...

The first thing which set my spidey-senses tingling was the following sentence :

These Rules are formulated according to relevant state regulations and in combination with the actual circumstances of Shenzhen Special Economic Zone (hereinafter referred to as the special zone) in order to push forward the progress of coding products in the special zone...

Why, I asked myself, would anyone need to "push forward the progress of coding products" if, as you claim, it is mandatory to code every product? The only conclusion I could reach is that it is not mandatory at all, but rather is encouraged.

I said the UPC/EAN manditory in almost every country.

Yes, you did, and I said that no, they're not.

Name any one country in the world that dose not comply to EAN or UPC

There is a difference between countries that comply with these standards and country that mandate that products must carry the barcode.

So far, the only example you've provided are a set of regulations encouraging the use of product codes, using language that makes it clear that they are not already univsersally adopted in said region. It does not mandate their use.

You also have yet to show anything supportive your claim regarding the "serious fines" that are "imposed globally" for the misuse of codes.

It may not be identified through a scanner as "666" but to the eye it is obvious when you break down the codes.

UPC and EAN are defined in terms of how they are read by a scanner. If the scanner does not read 666, then there isn't a 666 there.

If you define your own decoding, then the results are meaningless. Either you can show that the breakdown according to the spec is 666, or you don't have a 666 there.

Scripture says nothing about scanners

How surprising.

It mentions of a mark synonymous with buying and selling. The UPC/EAN Bar code is a mark and is synonymous with buying and selling.

Indeed...but you've already stated that you don't believe that the barcode is what was referred to in scripture, so this is irrelevant.

But speaking of scripture...a thought occurred to me on the way home. You have stated that you believe that the prophecies of scripture must come to pass. You (apparently) believe that the RFID chip, inserted into the hand, is the Mark of the Beast. So basically, what you're saying is that this is going to pass, because God has fore-ordained that it will happen.

Now...given all of that...explain to me why its a bad thing that you want to warn people against? Its the Will of God...but you want society to somehow try and prevent the inevitable that GOd has willed.

Run_to_da_hills · 28-02-2008 1:00pm

meglome wrote: »

No I certainly wouldn't be doing "that".

Can I assume you believe that the fact the Gardai use the numbers 666 at the beginning of their phones numbers is also a link to some sort of evil? Since at least that really is 666, as opposed to those bar codes which haven't actually got 666 in them.

I am not one bit superstitious about the number 666, I had it in a phone number for years, I am also aware of the Gardai using it. It is the only number ever mentioned in scripture that we are told to be vigilant of and it concerns global commerce and an identity.

Run_to_da_hills · 28-02-2008 1:08pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, it hasn't.

You're claiming something is there by, in essence, redefining the alphabet. You're incorrectly claiming that two narrow bars with a space between them represent the digit 6. This isn't true.

A UPC barcode consists of spaces and bars. All the spaces and bars are multiples of a nominal width. I'll represent the spaces, bars and their respective widths using 's' for a single-unit space and 'B' for a single-unit bar.

The start guard pattern is BsB. The end guard pattern is the same. The centre guard pattern is sBsBs.

Before the centre guard, the digit 6 is represented by sBsBssss. After the centre guard, it's represented by BsBsBBBB.

Looking at the barcode, the start and end guards, and part of the centre guard, look like part of the digit 6 - but only as it's represented after the centre guard.

So, no: the digits 666 are not included in a barcode.

I want to see charts. If I can produce them why cant you?

bonkey · 28-02-2008 1:35pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I want to see charts. If I can produce them why cant you?

http://www.indiana.edu/~atmat/units/barcodes/bar_r1.htm

Includes a definition of the encoding scheme, as well as some images for ppl who have problems visualising.

As OscarBravo says - the 6 to the left of the center guard is coded differently. You can verify this in both the images and the specification.

You can also verify that the spec defines all three guards as being three bits wide (thin line, thin space, thin line), and all encoded digits as 7-bit. From this perspective alone, its impossible for a guard to be a 6.

Cashless Society

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