Irish gov determined to bulldoze Top Ten ancient discovery

L1011

lostexpectation wrote: »

I mean Tara. Tara is a a group of monuments its pinnacle being located on the hill named Tara. I figure Tara was there bofore the village.

I see I already corrected you on this before and pointed out that it was the gombeen politicians using the phrase 'bulldozing the hill of tara', not the campaigners

You haven't "corrected" me on anything, and continue to make the word deliberately ambiguous. "Tara" on its own means the village, and to many people if you're referring to anything other than the village with that term they assume "hill of".

Is it really necessary to make five posts in a row? As goes the planning system here - if you disagree with it, go out there and change it. Get elected, whatever. Don't keyboard warrior about it. I'm willing to accept that after the recent/ongoing tribunals of inquiry that the process is fairly open - oddly enough those that don't get their way always cry corruption.

PeakOutput

lostexpectation wrote: »

we live in country with a corrupt planning process and unsustainable one at that.

we live in a country that the majority has created and it should be no other way. i havnt voted for the present government but i support democracy so i cant complain about it. if the root of the problem is planning then punish the planners by not voting for them(as far as i know local county councils control planning and they are elected if im wrong correct me) do not punish the people who have been promised a road and made decisions based on that promise in good faith.

like it or not this road is in the best interests of the people of ireland the majoriy of which voted for the goverment that is implementing it

said it was rare and unique.

that statement is not physically true but how and ever can I ask you a direct question.

you understand that lismullen is a post enclosure yes? now if i remember correctly this means that it is an enclosure that was made of wooden posts. these wooden posts have now degraded to become essentially muck. different to the muck around it but essentially muck nonetheless. assume for a moment that this slightly different muck has been completely dug up and removed for testing leaving only the same muck at the site that covers the ground for miles around. what is there left to preserve?

my answer is nothing is left to preserve but i look forward to yours

Wertz

lostexpectation wrote: »

there the ones getting in the way of transnational commuters and making the road less safe motorways are not made of thousands of people commuting daily for hours from home and to work.

Take a trip down the M1 or any other arterial route either here or in the UK sometime...m-ways may have been introduced for high speed travel betwen cities but with the number of cars on the roads nowadays, they are nothing more than what our national routes were 25 yrs back; ie. a means for people to commute.
I don't like it, most people don't but that's the reality of the situation...none of that detracts from the point that the road is needed....it's the poor planning (in the opinion of many) and implementation that is at issue here....no-one can say that the region doesn't need a motorway...just the actual location of that motorway that I and other have issue with.
But like most things in this country it's already too late to do anything about it so it's all a moot point. Hopefully we learn from it....though I seriously doubt it, since the people in charge can't even admit that they may have made a mistake...

jimmycrackcorm

The government should bring in a law that people can only object ot new roads before they are announced. Doesn't matter where you put a road as you are bound to find a few pots and pans once digging starts - tough.

Meathlass

lostexpectation wrote: »

wrong,wrong wrong, the nra archaeologist should have never removed all the topsoil on it in one go first, that's archaeological malpractice.

who said the motorway is going through the hill of tara, you talk you pretend to know something about the profession but yet don't know the difference between Tara and the Hill of Tara.

http://www.savetara.com/articles/2007/122707_expert.html

The SaveTara campaign are always talking about the motorway going through Tara but they never specify the village, hill or valley. They never correct people in the media, they're happy to let the falacy lie.

The NRA archaeologist has nothing to do with removing the topsoil (I can really see Mary Deevy out there monitoring the machine!!) The Archaeological contractors (in this case ADS) would have tested the route in Spring 2005 and reported their findings. As far as I'm aware Lismullin did not show up in testing (a centre line trench along the whole route with trenches on alternate sides at 20m intervals) which would not be unusual especially given the nature of the site. The topsoil would then have been removed (yes in one go) with an archaeologist monitoring all works and cordening off areas that had potential. No malpractice was committed on this site and it's a slur on everyone who worked there to say so.

Meathlass

lostexpectation wrote: »

who said that?
actually the people who wrote the report on it said it was rare and unique.

and

The Lismullin post enclosure is one of the
most exciting archaeological discoveries of
recent times. A striking feature of the site is
its deliberately chosen landscape setting. That
this discreet area within the Tara landscape
was revisited and reused over a number of
millennia can be seen in the recorded features
dating to the Early and Middle Neolithic, the
Early Bronze Age, the early Iron Age and the
early medieval periods. Furthermore, the vast
majority of the prehistoric activity, although
somewhat episodic, appears to have been of
a ritual or ceremonial nature. This further
emphasises that the prehistoric inhabitants
of the Gabhra Valley perceived this area as
a special place.
http://www.nra.ie/Archaeology/Seanda-NRAArchaeologyMagazine/file,11163,en.pdf

I corrected some of your other waffle on tara in the history and heritage forum.

If the Director Aidan O'Connell who would have written that report said the site is rare and unique I agree with him as he is in the best position to judge this. My point is that there are lots of other important sites in Ireland. They are all important and all connected to the landscape. We don't know how this site is connected to the Hill of Tara complex and we never will but by excavating the site in advance of the motorway construction we can hope to learn something about the Lismullin site. If it wasn't for the M3 Lismullin would never have been discovered and like a previous poster said would have been destroyed by farming over the years.

If the choice was in your hands what would you have done? Would you have rerouted the motorway and buried the site so any information would be undiscovered until future generations with better technology could investigate it? This is a valid arguement and one that occurs alot on NRA roadschemes (If significant sites are found during the testing the road is usually realigned to faciliate this if it is practical) A lot of the protesters seem to want to reroute the road AND excavate the site at the same time. In this case what would be the point of rerouting the road in the first place if you were going to excavate the site anyway. I think one the major problems with Lismullin was that it wasn't discovered until topsoil stripping was taking place, this meant it was too late to change the realignment of the motorway and when the experts came down to see it eg. Conor Newman, even he agreed that the site could not preserved as the archaeological contexts were so badly preserved and would have to be excavated.

Please don't insult me by refering to my opinions as waffle, I haven't insulted you personally.

Setun

Sleepy wrote: »

An exhorbitant toll á la the M50 perhaps?

Yeah I was thinking that. How fitting - get the public to pay the fine for a road they didn't want built beside tara hill.

Punchbowl

Sundy wrote: »

Its called a Democracy

Is it? I must of missed the vote so? What were the results???

Degsy

Daddio wrote: »

Yeah I was thinking that. How fitting - get the public to pay the fine for a road they didn't want built beside tara hill.

Ah,but they DO want it.The only people who seem not to want it are a bunch of hippies,neo-druids and ****ed-up weirdbeards.

unclebill98

Daddio wrote: »

Yeah I was thinking that. How fitting - get the public to pay the fine for a road they didn't want built beside tara hill.

Then don't use the road and you shall not pay the toll..... :rolleyes:

Archeron

lostexpectation wrote: »

wow you didn't like hippies before and you don't like em, now I wonder what civil engineering degrees the councillors have

I didnt say I dont like hippies, I've no problems with hippies at all.
Where I have problems is when some smelly semi stoned dude knocks on my door asking me to sign a petition against something that I feel is urgently required for the future progression of the county in which I live, without being able to provide a coherent argument as to WHY I should sign it.

As for the councillors, I'm sure they have no engineering degrees either, but I would imagine that the companies they employ to perform these pre-contract works and planning applications probably have one or two between them. If I had to make a decision to trust the opinions of a guy who doesnt really seem to know what he's talking about or a large national infrastructural construction company with a succesful track record in providing major works, I think I'd go with the latter.
As I said, there probably are protestors out there eloquently making very valid points about what they want changed in relation to this, but it most certainly has not come across that way to the people who are directly affected by it every single day of their lives.
As someone else said above, you can barely dig a hole to plant a tree in this part of the country without coming across something of archeological interest. Should we just cancel all progress in the county for the sake of preserving it? I dont say bulldoze everything, but I do say that if you find a small piece of crockery, or a shadow of a hole where something wooden once stood, then make a decision on what should happen, and stick with it.
As long as intelligent decisions are made in relation to these type of things, with rational discussion and debate from BOTH sides, then people will be happy to live with the results. What irks people on this is the amount of misleading information being put forward from groups who seem determined to get their own way, regardless of the affect this may have to tens or even hundreds of thousands of people trying to go about their lives.

Yes, this has been handled poorly by the government, but I believe it has been handled equally poorly by those opposed to the decision.
The majority of people of Meath love their counties heritage and are intensely proud of it, and they would have backed up proper arguments against what has happened on this site, but those proper arguments just never really turned up, and even if they had, it was a bit bloody late.

Setun

unclebill98 wrote:

Then don't use the road and you shall not pay the toll.....

Oh I won't be using that road and paying that tax, no way...





..I can't drive

unclebill98

Daddio wrote: »

Oh I won't be using that road and paying that tax, no way...





..I can't drive

:):) then your opinion on the M3 can't count

Setun

unclebill98 wrote: »

:):) then your opinion on the M3 can't count

Does cycling count??

On a slightly more serious note, I don't really associate with hippies, or weirdbeards or whatever the hell people call them these days, but nearly everyone I've talked to is against the road being built so close to Tara. So taht's my experience with it.

cornbb

Archeron wrote: »

I didnt say I dont like hippies, I've no problems with hippies at all.
Where I have problems is when some smelly semi stoned dude knocks on my door asking me to sign a petition against something that I feel is urgently required for the future progression of the county in which I live, without being able to provide a coherent argument as to WHY I should sign it.

I don't particularly like "hippies" either, they irk me in some intangible way that I suspect they do to many other people too. Their opinions however are valid, and while they rightfully don't get their way a lot of the time their lobbying is important as it keeps the interests of other groups with vested interests in check, and vice-versa.

Not all of the protesters are hippies either, most are just people like you or me with jobs, cars, and/or families.

As for the councillors, I'm sure they have no engineering degrees either, but I would imagine that the companies they employ to perform these pre-contract works and planning applications probably have one or two between them. If I had to make a decision to trust the opinions of a guy who doesnt really seem to know what he's talking about or a large national infrastructural construction company with a succesful track record in providing major works, I think I'd go with the latter.

Here we have a group with vested interests. Engineering companies have an interest in making money, preserving archaeological remains isn't high among their priorities I imagine. Hence we need "hippies" to keep them in check.

L1011

Daddio wrote: »

Yeah I was thinking that. How fitting - get the public to pay the fine for a road they didn't want built beside tara hill.

You've a warped definition of "beside", or more likely don't actually know where the road is going to be built. Its no nearer to the hill than current roads are.

Punchbowl wrote: »

Is it? I must of missed the vote so? What were the results???

You must have missed the 2004 local elections and 2007 general election, then.

Archeron

cornbb wrote: »

Not all of the protesters are hippies either, most are just people like you or me with jobs, cars, and/or families.

I know, I said in my post that there are bound to be people putting across a valid point of view that makes a proper argument. But I'm also just pointing out that as a resident of Meath, the ONLY people I have seen pursuing this issue are those of the hippy variety. To me that smacks of a poorly organized protest, and I'm sure others in my situation would feel the same. Think of Tarawatch, what do I think of? Hippies. I also think of the idiots with their Irish Wolfhounds who caused traffic chaos on the N3 one day as they stood around the Fairyhouse cross junction chanting and wailing and goodness knows what else. Not exactly inspiring me to persue their cause.

I have seen the protest outside of Navan Shopping centre (a good place to have it, certainly a hub for people in the Meath area) and it was, once again, hippies who didnt really have any point to make. Where were the professional people there? I would certainly have listened, and if in agreement with logical points would have gladly joined the protest and helped spread the word. By all means, I love the heritage of the area, and would do my utmost to defend it where I can, and where it does actually require defending.

As for the point about construction companies having their own agendas, of course you're right. But put beside the dreamy visions of the only protestors that I've come across, I'd still choose the contractors.

This could possibly be the crux of the problem. The protests could be a valid argument that is being made, but when the OTHER people who are making NO point whatsoever get tagged onto it, people stop listening.
Perhaps the best thing the hippies could do for this protest is to stop protesting, leave the discussion of alternative proposals to people who do know what they are talking about, and let the decisions be made on the basis of intelligent conversation instead of colorful flower filled visions.

I for one have only encountered the flowers so far, and based on that have pretty much come to the conclusion that I've reached, ie, its all a load of arse.

Degsy

cornbb wrote: »

Hence we need "hippies" to keep them in check.

Hippies dont keep anything in check,they just waste everybody's time and talk a load of old cobblers.One of those idiots trying to delay the M3 was forced tp pay 600 grand in states legal fees for wasting time.If they havnt got a cogent argument beyond some bead-jangling nonsense they should stick to knitting kaftans and sending thier kids around in the nude.

unclebill98

I see there is a protest on the 8th...if i could get the time of work i'd go down to the Lismullen bit of the N3 and stand there with a large sign saying "Honk for the M3". I bet I'd get alot of support by passing motorists?