Irish gov determined to bulldoze Top Ten ancient discovery

L1011

cornbb wrote: »

Nobody is going to look back on the M3 in awe in 10, 100 or 10,000 years time.

I dispute that - we look back on roman roads in awe...

cornbb

MYOB wrote: »

I dispute that - we look back on roman roads in awe...

Yes, we also look back on ancient mud huts with awe. That doesn't mean every 3-bedroom semi detached house in Ireland will become an archaeological artifact. The roman roads were the engineering and scientific marvels of their time, I don't think the M3 will hold any such historical significance for some reason.

Dub13

This is very heavy stuff for after hours.....have we all grown up over the Xmas...?

L1011

cornbb wrote: »

Yes, we also look back on ancient mud huts with awe. That doesn't mean every 3-bedroom semi detached house in Ireland will become an archaeological artifact. The roman roads were the engineering and scientific marvels of their time, I don't think the M3 will hold any such historical significance for some reason.

Thats because there are very few of the mud huts surviving - don't be doubting there were just as many of them in 1820 as there are 3-bed semi-D's now. The surviving bits of the motorway network will either still be in use (obviously replaced and likely widened many times) in 2000 years, or looked at in awe - just as the roman road network in the UK is.

cornbb

MYOB wrote: »

Thats because there are very few of the mud huts surviving - don't be doubting there were just as many of them in 1820 as there are 3-bed semi-D's now. The surviving bits of the motorway network will either still be in use (obviously replaced and likely widened many times) in 2000 years, or looked at in awe - just as the roman road network in the UK is.

There are plenty of arguments in favour of building the M3 but if you are arguing that we should build it because it *might* one day become a significant archaeological artifact, well, thats not a very good reason to build a road IMO.

Anyway, people are arguing to have the route moved a little, not abandon building it altogether.

Marksie

MYOB wrote: »

Thats because there are very few of the mud huts surviving - don't be doubting there were just as many of them in 1820 as there are 3-bed semi-D's now. The surviving bits of the motorway network will either still be in use (obviously replaced and likely widened many times) in 2000 years, or looked at in awe - just as the roman road network in the UK is.

Did you actually read the initial post, the valley etc are not just a bit of old road or collection of houses but:

TetsuoHashimoto wrote: »

--makes it Ireland's most spiritually and archaeologically significant site.

Dub13 wrote: »

Not many 'Archeology people' here in After Hours.

Not the kind of digout FF prefer.

They have learned nothing from the wood quay fiasco. Heritage is only useful when something is to be gained from it and not when it conflicts with money, or it seems, saving a few minutes travelling time

ejmaztec

You won't get any sympathy from those there archaeologists. They like rooting around, picking up a couple of bits and pieces, sticking 'em into a glass case - so that some local museum can charge you for looking at the auld stones for a fee. I think that their real passion is Tarmac and pictures of JCBs on their bedroom walls.

Wertz

The road will be built if for no other reason than that the land has been acquired, plans drawn up, contracts written and money changed hands.
As mentioned, no-one is saying, or has ever said, that road shouldn't be built, just the sheer idiocy of dynamiting our way through a place of KNOWN historical significance (this isn't sh*t that was uncovered mid bulldoze; it's been known about for centuries) when an alternate route could have just as easily been planned for and had land bought for back when it was still possible and the least expensive...

But no, in typical FF fashion let's just forge ahead and f*ck common sense (port tunnel and the supertruck anyone?), the will of the people or anything much else that may get in the way of "progress".
If FF supporters want to get butt hurt at the mention of their beloved gombeens then so be it....but please don't for a moment try and pin the blame for this lunacy on anyone else...

L1011

Marksie wrote: »

Did you actually read the initial post, the valley etc are not just a bit of old road or collection of houses but:

Yes, and it says its our most significant site discovered in the last year. What else was discovered in the last year? Can't name anything... I'd suggest that one of our actual world heritage sites is out most significant site, actually.

We've two choices - destroy it by digging it up or cover it with a road meaning that a future generation can destroy it by digging it up. Can't see how column A is any worse than column B. Can guarantee that if the road was re-routed there'd be more "significant" finds.

And the whole most laughable thing about this is how theres many people brainwashed in to assuming the motorway is going through the *hill of* Tara as opposed to the Tara-Skryne Valley...

Senna

What lenght of road would have to be changed from the original plans? and how far would it have to be moved?
How big is this ancient site? would the road being 100 yards to the left miss it?

leninbenjamin

MYOB wrote: »

And the whole most laughable thing about this is how theres many people brainwashed in to assuming the motorway is going through the *hill of* Tara as opposed to the Tara-Skryne Valley...

in fairness that's as much due to the lazy and sensationalist journalism we have in abundance nowadays than anything else.

ednwireland

the tara road goes further away from the hill of tara than the current road, there is an interchange which should be redesigned because it encroaches on the lower slopes of a field on the otherside of a road from the hill of of tara. lismullen is a bunch of empty holes in the ground (i would guess its bulldozed by now ) there is nothing there to preserve once you've ripped of the topsoil. the reason i see the road been built there is they only had to demolish 3 houses on this route the next viable route would have had to demolish 74 i firmly beleive that was the deciding factor.

starn

Now lets get this straight from the off. Im not exactly FF biggest fan. But I would love to know how many people protesting about the Lismullen site have actually seen it. I took a spin out last sept TBH was pretty shocked. I was expecting a passage tomb or at least some type of cairn or standing stone. But no in actual fact, its literally a big hole in the ground. There is nothing remotly signicant about the site as far as I can see. As for being one of the most impotant sites of 2007. What a load of ****. Can anybody name another one. Maybe the big pothole outside my house ??

Just a loads of old crusties and do gooders getting there knickers in a twist over nothing.
There time would be a lot better spent protesting about our corrupt poloticians and inadiquate health service [ not everyone else has your protective coating of penicillan]
Get your priorties straight, and have a wash I can smell you from here.

unclebill98

I am one of those who want this M3 built. I am one of those who have sat in the traffic in Dunsaughlin, Navan, Kells and Blanch by-pass trying to get home. I've sat in traffic in Ratoath to Finglas which has now become a hell hole of a place to get through. I've sat in my car for over hour trying to get through 1/2 mile of road. So for me the bloody thing should just be built. I've seen the so called national importance site. Its nothing that you can compare to the Tara hill itself. You have people going onto Matt Cooper(which you listen to while sitting in 2-3hrs traffic going home) saying its as important as the Spinx and the Pyramids and stone Henge, Boll ox to that. Maybe I actually might enjoy the hill of tara if i could see it from the M3, maybe more people would visit it then....

I could not afford to buy in Dublin, hence to move to Cavan. I started driving up through Ratoath a few years ago. I left at 7am, was in Dublin city centre and at my desk for 9. After 10 months I had to shift my start time to 8am and leave my house a 5.30am just to make it on time.... Most days being late. I see those poor folks who just bought there really expensive Ratoath house, stopped at the exit of the housing estate wondering....where did all this traffic come from....its 7/8am...no wonder they show these house at the weekend!! They can not even get into the traffic cause that road is as clogged as the bloody N3.

So, please built the god darn M3.... I don't mind paying the Tolls, just give me the option. Every other road from Dublin is a lovely safe road. People are gettign forced onto sub standard roads and are driving at speed just to make up the time. Ask anyone who lives on the roads around the N3. Its not a safe place to walk, for kids to play. There all asking for the speed limit to be reduced and for it to be enforced.

My pet hate, those idiots standing at Lismullen with the 'Down with this sort of thing' posters.... Those who want the M3 might be out protesting for it, if they managed to get home at a decent hour and had not just spent 6 hrs a day travelling to/from work.

Build over the past to move into the future.....yes please.

rant over.

Dyr

you're the one who had to own a house even if it was up in the arsehole of nowhere. The heritage we're meant to hold in trust for future generations shouldnt have to be steamrollered because you're werent bright enough to figure out that living in a different province to the one you work in would involve long commutes.

lostexpectation

MYOB wrote: »

I live very close to the N3, I travel on it very frequently. I want the motorway built.

so do many people, but why do you want it built through Tara?

lostexpectation

just becuase it uses the land with added shaped earth doens't make it less important then any other monument that was the tech at the time, and very clever they were at it too.

lostexpectation

unclebill98 wrote: »

I am one of those who want this M3 built. I am one of those who have sat in the traffic in Dunsaughlin, Navan, Kells and Blanch by-pass trying to get home. I've sat in traffic in Ratoath to Finglas which has now become a hell hole of a place to get through. I've sat in my car for over hour trying to get through 1/2 mile of road. So for me the bloody thing should just be built. I've seen the so called national importance site. Its nothing that you can compare to the Tara hill itself. You have people going onto Matt Cooper(which you listen to while sitting in 2-3hrs traffic going home) saying its as important as the Spinx and the Pyramids and stone Henge, Boll ox to that. Maybe I actually might enjoy the hill of tara if i could see it from the M3, maybe more people would visit it then....

I could not afford to buy in Dublin, hence to move to Cavan. I started driving up through Ratoath a few years ago. I left at 7am, was in Dublin city centre and at my desk for 9. After 10 months I had to shift my start time to 8am and leave my house a 5.30am just to make it on time.... Most days being late. I see those poor folks who just bought there really expensive Ratoath house, stopped at the exit of the housing estate wondering....where did all this traffic come from....its 7/8am...no wonder they show these house at the weekend!! They can not even get into the traffic cause that road is as clogged as the bloody N3.

So, please built the god darn M3.... I don't mind paying the Tolls, just give me the option. Every other road from Dublin is a lovely safe road. People are gettign forced onto sub standard roads and are driving at speed just to make up the time. Ask anyone who lives on the roads around the N3. Its not a safe place to walk, for kids to play. There all asking for the speed limit to be reduced and for it to be enforced.

My pet hate, those idiots standing at Lismullen with the 'Down with this sort of thing' posters.... Those who want the M3 might be out protesting for it, if they managed to get home at a decent hour and had not just spent 6 hrs a day travelling to/from work.

Build over the past to move into the future.....yes please.

rant over.

you bought a house in cavan for job in dublin, ahahhahahahaha

RENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lostexpectation

ednwireland wrote: »

the tara road goes further away from the hill of tara than the current road, there is an interchange which should be redesigned because it encroaches on the lower slopes of a field on the otherside of a road from the hill of of tara. lismullen is a bunch of empty holes in the ground (i would guess its bulldozed by now ) there is nothing there to preserve once you've ripped of the topsoil. the reason i see the road been built there is they only had to demolish 3 houses on this route the next viable route would have had to demolish 74 i firmly beleive that was the deciding factor.

it is further away at one point and not at another, so your wrong, it also a motorway and large exchange.

there shouldn't have ripped up the topsoil should they not correct archaeological process there at all.

never been able to find map that shows the number of houses involved link?

dfx-

unclebill98 wrote: »

Build over the past to move into the future.....yes please.

Simple really.

Thousands of years and hundreds of generations worldwide have considered their future more important than their past, but not Ireland of 2008. Oh no.

Somehow gazing at our history is more important than moulding our future.:mad:

starn

Bambi wrote: »

The heritage we're meant to hold in trust for future generations .

Have you actually been to the sight in Lismullen. Honestly it is nothing more then a hole in the ground.

jesus_thats_gre

So a bunch of hippys put this thing on a top 10 and top 100 list and we are meant to take notice?

L1011

lostexpectation wrote: »

so do many people, but why do you want it built through Tara?

Because its the approved route, and construction has started. You're significantly too late to stop it under standard processes.

And once again, its going through neither the hill of or the village of Tara, its going through the Tara Skryne Valley - totally, totally different concept. The "archeological remains" are unconnected with what everyone automatically assumes when they hear "Tara", as proven in this very thread (where someone has made reference to High Kings, etc).

unclebill98

Bambi wrote: »

you're the one who had to own a house even if it was up in the arsehole of nowhere. The heritage we're meant to hold in trust for future generations shouldnt have to be steamrollered because you're werent bright enough to figure out that living in a different province to the one you work in would involve long commutes.

ok, Yes i bought a house knowing that i had a long travel to work. Its not the middle of now where. It was outside Virginia. When i was looking at the house i am only 50 mins from Blanch m50 roundabout. Thats less than it takes the 77a from tallaght to college green. So add about another 30mins tops for the trip into town and you have a travel time of 1hr 1/2. So to very very many people this is an acceptable commute. Tens of thousands of people have deon this. People live in Laois/Kildare/Wexford/Louth/Monahgan and Carlow to travel up. All them routes have proper roads. You can travel from Carlow to Newlands cross with not one set of traffic lights. People live in Cavan town and travel up. When i was looking the M3 was on the cards, the route was not picked but it was planned. So why would you not take up the house. Considering house in dublin where at the 280k-300k mark at the time and all i could afford was less than 200k. Have you seen the site that they plan on building over?? I for one knew that when the chose that route there be issues with the hippies etc. Tara Hill is further away from the new road than the present one. I'd never want anything like the Hill itself to be runied. But this thing as everyone who has seen it pointed out, is a hole...nothing major at all. You can not even preserve it correctly, hence the desicion to build over it. The Farmer who owned the land had destroyed most of it due to his ploughing...Are they going to sue him now? So don't tell me i ain't bright, 1hr bus ride = 1hr 30 and your own house.....simple choice really.

lostexpectation, as for renting, Tallaght, 400p/m for a single room. Finglas, 350p/m for a single room. Half an apartment in Dublin City Centre 500p/m for a half room and Smithfield 550p/m for a single room. Thats what i had paid over years of living in Dublin's rental market. 1 full 4bed house in Cavan, 375p/m x2 people = 750p/m inc life/house insurance. So, why did i wanna keep paying someone elses mortgage!

Also, as pointed out it ain't going through Tara...its around!

I really think people should try and live one week with all those people travelling to/from work to the areas affected by not having this motorway. Also those effected by having large volumes of cars on the all th surrounding back roads. If then, your still of the opinion that it should not be built then fine, i'll respect your opinion. You'd never see me complain about other parts of the country and roads that ain't being built cause of some hole in the ground, cause i'd not know how exactly it effects them. There was some Holywood idiot on the late late, saying save Tara....they guy does not even live in Ireland, how can you take his side of the arguement? There still giving planning permission to people to develop house around the area and there giving out about that! These are local need builds.

Look at the N5, at one point it turns into a lane way(Best way to discribe it) and does not get better until the turn for Ballina... Trucks fall of the side of the road... People are screaming out for it to be finished. I am sure there are plenty of other roads it the same **** state.

cournioni

leninbenjamin wrote: »

funnily enough I've yet to meet someone who actually wants that road to go ahead.

I do, and the majority of Cavan and Meath want it to go ahead too. Who have you been meeting exactly?

ednwireland

lostexpectation wrote: »

there shouldn't have ripped up the topsoil should they not correct archaeological process there at all.

never been able to find map that shows the number of houses involved link?

doubt the hundreds of archeologists who worked on it would agree.
directors reports
http://www.nra.ie/Archaeology/NationalMonumentatLismullin/

i only heard the houses stuff once on a discussion on pat kenny show (i think from an nra rep) never being able to find a link but its the only thing that makes sense on picking the route. if i find a link i'll post

Dyr

unclebill98 wrote: »

ok, Yes i bought a house knowing that i had a long travel to work. Its not the middle of now where. It was outside Virginia.

it was outside virginia? has it moved since then so? cavan=middle of nowhere from a dublin commuters perspective

unclebill98 wrote: »

When i was looking at the house i am only 50 mins from Blanch m50 roundabout.

eh no, I'm afraid it wasnt. You see, you're using time to measure how far away it is from dublin. You should actually be using distance. Cavans about a 100 miles away from dublin I think, and thats quite far. It will always be that far, the time it takes you to travel that 100 miles will vary depending on circumstances.

unclebill98 wrote: »

When i was looking at the house i am only 50 mins from Blanch m50 roundabout

Again journey time=relative, distance=constant. Incidentally, unless you work on the M50 roundabout what use is it noting how long it takes you to get there

unclebill98 wrote: »

So don't tell me i ain't bright, 1hr bus ride = 1hr 30 and your own house.....simple choice really.

and you made the choice, and it was obviously a swiss watch of a choice, seems as how you're now whining about your commute.


I dont see why we should bulldoze a route through what the-people-who know-about-these-things say is a major heiritage site just so all those bill-in-virginia types can get home in time for the angelus or whatever.

leninbenjamin

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

I do, and the majority of Cavan and Meath want it to go ahead too. Who have you been meeting exactly?

people not from Cavan and Meath maybe? i was just making the point that it's turned into a wee bit of a Cavan and Meath vs. Rest of Ireland type debate. no one gives a fudge about the other sides argument and doesn't want to either.

cournioni

Bambi wrote: »

it was outside virginia? has it moved since then so? cavan=middle of nowhere from a dublin commuters perspective

Tell that to the thousands of Dubs living in this part of Cavan.

Bambi wrote:

eh no, I'm afraid it wasnt. You see, you're using time to measure how far away it is from dublin. You should actually be using distance. Cavans about a 100 miles away from dublin I think, and thats quite far. It will always be that far, the time it takes you to travel that 100 miles will vary depending on circumstances.

What?! Cavan is nowhere near 100 miles from Dublin. Where I live is 50 miles from Dublin.

Bambi wrote:

Again journey time=relative, distance=constant. Incidentally, unless you work on the M50 roundabout what use is it noting how long it takes you to get there

From my house to Fleet Street with very little traffic takes 1hr 10 mins. From my house to Fleet Street during rush hour takes 2hrs+?!

Bambi wrote:

and you made the choice, and it was obviously a swiss watch of a choice, seems as how you're now whining about your commute.

Some people need to work, and some people cannot afford houses in Dublin... Doesn't seem to be a choice there.

Bambi wrote:

I dont see why we should bulldoze a route through what the-people-who know-about-these-things say is a major heiritage site just so all those bill-in-virginia types can get home in time for the angelus or whatever.

THE ROAD IS NOT GOING THROUGH ANYTHING BUT A F*CKING VALLEY!!! :rolleyes:

cournioni

leninbenjamin wrote: »

people not from Cavan and Meath maybe? i was just making the point that it's turned into a wee bit of a Cavan and Meath vs. Rest of Ireland type debate. no one gives a fudge about the other sides argument and doesn't want to either.

Thats great, but the rest of Ireland don't have to worry about crashing into an over zealous driver trying to get work every morning. I've been on this road, and as annoying as the traffic is (as slow as 35mph at times) the danger posed by drivers trying to beat this traffic is HUGE.

If people want to see an end to the carnage on our roads they should look for safer roads, not be opposed to them.

If any of these hippies had work to go to, they would understand.