Irish gov determined to bulldoze Top Ten ancient discovery

leninbenjamin

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

If any of these hippies had work to go to, they would understand.

that just perfectly illustrates my point. perhaps if those on your side of the argument were to tone down the hostility some accommodation could be reached, but while ye continue to just berate the rest of us i don't give a sh*t about your unfortunate daily strife, besides by moving to Cavan/Meath you chose it.

cournioni

leninbenjamin wrote: »

that just perfectly illustrates my point. perhaps if those on your side of the argument were to tone down the hostility some accommodation could be reached, but while ye continue to just berate the rest of us i don't give a sh*t about your unfortunate daily strife, besides by moving to Cavan/Meath you chose it.

Firstly, I didn't choose to live here, I am from here. Should I pay for some ****hole apartment that I cannot afford and will be paying off my mortgage for the next 40 years in Dublin or a pleasant affordable house in the countryside with a lake view and tranquil surroundings? Not much of a choice there. People need to live, and a road like the M3 would make it a hell of alot easier for the people of Cavan and Meath.

Secondly, I have tried to debate this in a diplomatic way many times before and to be honest I am sick of hearing the same pretentious comments every time. So maybe I am being hostile, and for that I am sorry.

Dyr

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

Tell that to the thousands of Dubs living in this part of Cavan.


What?! Cavan is nowhere near 100 miles from Dublin. Where I live is 50 miles from Dublin.

correct, i was thinking in kms and typing in miles

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

Some people need to work, and some people cannot afford houses in Dublin... Doesn't seem to be a choice there.

I live in Dublin and can't afford a gaff so i rent. "can't" and "won't" arent the same thing . Of course our govt really want to have people buying houses and cars to keep the gravy train rolling so im a bit of an anachronism

cournioni

Bambi wrote: »

I live in Dublin and can't afford a gaff so i rent. "can't" and "won't" arent the same thing . Of course our govt really want to have people buying houses and cars to keep the gravy train rolling so im a bit of an anachronism

I understand... Can't and won't.

So you have the choice of having a beautiful house of your own by a lake in Cavan for €240k with plans for a motorway to go through the area (which would cut the commute to less than an hour). Or you could rent an apartment for the rest of your life in Dublin which I assume is distinctly average and not ideal for a family.

Sam Vimes

unclebill98 wrote: »

I am one of those who want this M3 built. I am one of those who have sat in the traffic in Dunsaughlin, Navan, Kells and Blanch by-pass trying to get home. I've sat in traffic in Ratoath to Finglas which has now become a hell hole of a place to get through. I've sat in my car for over hour trying to get through 1/2 mile of road. So for me the bloody thing should just be built.

i feel for you, absolutely i do. but as i already said in this thread, there is not one person in the nation of ireland who does not want the road built. there are, however, people who don't want the road to go through a historically important site. would you be willing to do a 2 minute detour while the road goes around the site instead of through it? surely that would keep everyone happy?

i realise it will end up costing a lot of money but that's due solely to government incompetence rather than the logistics of moving the road. in any other country, it could be moved for a few quid and if we're going to stop doing things just because the government will f*ck it up, we might as well go back to living in caves

Archeron

From the point of view of someone who lives in Meath and loves its history and archaeology, but who also realizes the importance of the county progressing and the part that major infrastructure will have on that, I have to say that those who represent the whole "save Tara" campaign that I have met and spoke with did absolutely no justice to their own cause at all. (one of them wanted an electric train from Navan to Rathoath, for some reason).

On four occasions I took the time to speak with various people (twice at my own front door and twice at cabins they had set up in Navan) and all four times I left it feeling that I had been speaking with idiots who want nothing more than to stop progress entirely in its tracks. Literally, the person I spoke to in Navan told me that they had many different options available (all outlined in green marker on a little map). When I asked what civil infrastructural experience was used to develop these routes, I was told that "they had played there as kids and no-one knew the area better than they did". Hardly a convincing argument, and he had NOTHING more to add than that. Add to that the eardrum splittingly loud diddly eye music blasting out of a boom box and that made for a rather surreal experience.

On one of the occasions at my front door, I got a similar kind of response, and the other occasion at my door, two people knocked. The guy speaking to me stank to high heaven (have a bath dude) which kind of overwhelmed what he was actually saying while some hippy girl actually stood spinning in a circle behind him with a slightly stoned smile on her face. How can you take that seriously?

Also, to those who say "tough, you moved there", remember also that these projects will provide the basis for companies to make decisions to move to Meath, and thus provide badly needed jobs for people who are FROM Meath. As it is now, most people in Meath (and I would guess, Cavan) have to drive to Dublin for work whether they like it or not as the jobs are simply not available in their own county.
Its not purely to get a person from their mansion in the country to their job in the city, its also to help goods and services move throughout the county in a more efficient manner. I know for myself from looking at and driving on the N3 as it is now that I sure as hell wouldnt be too eager to locate my company in a place that people can hardly even get to or from without soul destroying commutes on highly dangerous roads.

Yes, the project should probably be changed somewhat to avoid causing eyesores to sites of national importance (like the interchange), but if you're going to get a knackered tired commuting public into your way of thinking, then you should A. Wash, and B. Put together some kind of cohesive argument that doesnt involve dreaming up better solutions based on what you remember from the area as a child.
Perhaps their ideas are good, I dont know, but the problem is that most people will see what to all intents and purposes looks like a stoned hippy, and they will switch off. That makes people shallow, yes, but that wont come as much of a surprise to anyone, and if you're trying to change a government decision, than these are the things that should be taken into account.
Apologies to what I'm sure are well presented protestors out there, but I havent encountered any yet.

OctavarIan

starn wrote: »

Have you actually been to the sight in Lismullen. Honestly it is nothing more then a hole in the ground.

Well of course there's going to be a hole, how else is one to reach the artifacts? Also it might just appear to be any old hole to you, but then you don't know what to look for do you.

jesus_thats_gre wrote:

So a bunch of hippys put this thing on a top 10 and top 100 list and we are meant to take notice?

A bunch of hippies? They're people with jobs, just like you or me.

Wertz

MYOB wrote: »

(where someone has made reference to High Kings, etc).

It was me that made the point about high kings....it's a generalisation made to bolster my point (which isn't significantly different from yours).
To further that point, how the hell do we know (or more importantly did the people in charge of planning for and building the road know) exactly what it is they're ploughing into the ground? Why, back in the initial planning stages was it even considered to go right ahead with the cheapest route at the possible expense of something of cultural or archaelogical importance?
It's all very well saying survey, catalogue, bury and move on....but what if they did come across something very significant? Bury that too?
To reiterate it's a poor poor planning decision....one amongst a litany of them. Our friend back up the thread with his house in Cavan, and hundreds nay thousands like him are of course entitled to an unclogged corridor to work...they've all paid their stamp duty and pay their fuel tax and all that....but the sheer idiocy in the planning that allowed thousands of homes to be built along a crumbling, antiquated road network has to seriously be looked at....another fine example of putting the cart before the horse and then rushing ahead with huge infrstructural changes that may impact on some of the most important real estate on the island...

L1011

Once again, our options are "dig it up and leave it to be destroyed by the elements within years", "leave it there untouched and leave it for a future generation to dig it up and let it be destroyed" or "continue to bury it under the motorway". None of them is ideal, obviously, but its significantly too late to back off from option C now, no matter how much hand-wringing and whining from people who, generally, will never use or be affected by the current shambles of the N3 or the huge delays they could end up causing in replacing it.

Meathlass

This debate is over. The site has been fully excavated to the highest archaeological standards, within the full media glare, and was handed over to the construction firm sometime just before Christmas. They have probably already started landscaping the site.

There is nothing left to preserve and there never was. The site essentially consisted of posthole in circular form. Once the archaeological contexts (soils) have been excavated, you are left with the shape that the posthole made thousands of years ago (changed by ploughing and farming down through the years) These are recorded, planned and illustrated using CAD. There is nothing else you can do. The soils are sent for analysis and the site record written based on the stratigraphy of these soils.

There were 2 options when this site was discovered 1. Fully excavate it (which is what happened) 2. Preserve the site insitu ie. the moment it was realised it was something significant, cover it over with metres of topsoil and build the motorway on top of it. No posthole would be excavated and no information retrieved from the site. You can not excavate and preserve the site at the same time, it's a oxymoron. They could also have covered the site over with topsoil and reseeded it and moved the motorway in order to preserve it but then the site would be at risk from treasure hunters. It's not viable to want to move the motorway and excavate the site. You can't excavate a site and preserve it insitu. This is only remotely possible where you have upstanding features like walls or earthern banks.

There are hundreds of equally spectacular sites discovered in Ireland each year and excavated in advance of construction projects and NRA schemes but we never hear about those. If I hear another person saying the motorway is going through the Hill of Tara I am going to scream!!!

unclebill98

Bambi, your distance error was corrected. My travel times are averages and are I gathered them over months of driving and sitting in on the bloody bus. Yes its down to the road/traffic conditions on the day. But i am not a scentist, just a guy in a car...nor can i spell sometimes either.

Commander Vimes, I would of course be happy with a 2 min detour. Where i live i've not meet anyone knocking on my door asking my opinion. Guess they think it does not effect people in cavan of something. I did do the roadside survey and I did say that when asked about my feelings about going thruough the Valley that it should not ruin it. I guess the poeple in the know decided that its not important to keep and that the road should go ahead.

As mentioned by Archeron about Companies moving down here. How many times has anyone meet a large truck on the back roads.....? Tons of times. There taking risks to make there time table. There are tons of empty industrial units because theres is no proper way to move goods.

Wertz, well maybe they noticed the whole cart before the horse, there trying to build the M3 and there not being aloud!

Wertz

I infrequently use the N3 when I'm working in the meath area, which thankfully isn't that often. I agree it's a mess and a poses a road safety threat.
If it's of such importance then why not do a "warrington bypass" on it, get the riot cops out and just get the thing built and f*ck the hippy/environmentalist backlash?
Seems to me that the backing off done by government and local officials on this issue especially as we come closer to D-day, smacks of a lack of confidence in their own planning decision.
The appeals and subsequent delays are probably leading to cost overruns that could have been avoided by an earlier decision to spend more on the alternate route....but I agree; too late to start turning the supertanker now, easy to be wise after the event....my only concern now would be that sh*tty planning decisions like this in a time of great prosperity sets a precedent for other undesirable planning decisions down the line, especially when maybe the coffers aren't as full and there is less scope for taking an "alternate route" (I'm talking of planning in general, not just road building)

[edit]

unclebill98 wrote:

Wertz, well maybe they noticed the whole cart before the horse, there trying to build the M3 and there not being aloud!

I doubt it....all our planning especially in the meath area (schools, roads, health infrastructure) is reactive, never proactive, and even after the reaction it is usually inadequate for the needs of the area. Obviously it would have been a waste of money a decade back to build a road to "nowhere", but please don't for a minute tell me that the plans for building thousands of cloned dwellings in that particular "nowhere" hadn't been proposed years before they were actually built and sold. Another "We'll cross the bridge when we come to it" policy, that we're reeling from....one of many.

L1011

Because I highly doubt that would be legal in Ireland, thats why. I'd prefer it to the current situation, mind - might scare the builders in to working quicker too.

unclebill98

Meathlass wrote: »

This debate is over. The site has been fully excavated to the highest archaeological standards, within the full media glare, and was handed over to the construction firm sometime just before Christmas. They have probably already started landscaping the site.

There is nothing left to preserve and there never was. The site essentially consisted of posthole in circular form. Once the archaeological contexts (soils) have been excavated, you are left with the shape that the posthole made thousands of years ago (changed by ploughing and farming down through the years) These are recorded, planned and illustrated using CAD. There is nothing else you can do. The soils are sent for analysis and the site record written based on the stratigraphy of these soils.

There were 2 options when this site was discovered 1. Fully excavate it (which is what happened) 2. Preserve the site insitu ie. the moment it was realised it was something significant, cover it over with metres of topsoil and build the motorway on top of it. No posthole would be excavated and no information retrieved from the site. You can not excavate and preserve the site at the same time, it's a oxymoron. They could also have covered the site over with topsoil and reseeded it and moved the motorway in order to preserve it but then the site would be at risk from treasure hunters. It's not viable to want to move the motorway and excavate the site. You can't excavate a site and preserve it insitu. This is only remotely possible where you have upstanding features like walls or earthern banks.

There are hundreds of equally spectacular sites discovered in Ireland each year and excavated in advance of construction projects and NRA schemes but we never hear about those. If I hear another person saying the motorway is going through the Hill of Tara I am going to scream!!!

Finally....end of discussion.

Meathlass

Yeah, I don't understand why people are still campaigning to reroute the motorway. The site is gone, you can't get it back. If you've any interest go to www.nra.ie and look up the reports from Lismullin (probably not online yet though). The amount of misinformation on this topic has been unbelieveable in the general media.

starn

OctavarIan wrote: »

Well of course there's going to be a hole, how else is one to reach the artifacts? Also it might just appear to be any old hole to you, but then you don't know what to look for do you.

Tell me OctavarIan, what exactly makes you a expert on the subject. As far as Ive seen ypuve just shown yourself up. The artifacts that were ther were wooden posts which rotted away centries ago. The site your hippie friends are trying to preserve is the naturallt ocuring bowel shaped hole in the ground.

As for not knowing what Im lookig at, your absolutly right. But I went out to the site with my cousin Elaine. Who has HER MASTERS in Archological preservation. She couldnt belive the furue over the site after looking at. Especially given how many contemery sites are being destroyed gorgian Dublin

Can you please tell me if you or Bambi have been to the site. Given the factual errors within many of your posts I doubt it

lostexpectation

Meathlass wrote: »

This debate is over. The site has been fully excavated to the highest archaeological standards, within the full media glare, and was handed over to the construction firm sometime just before Christmas. They have probably already started landscaping the site.

There is nothing left to preserve and there never was. The site essentially consisted of posthole in circular form. Once the archaeological contexts (soils) have been excavated, you are left with the shape that the posthole made thousands of years ago (changed by ploughing and farming down through the years) These are recorded, planned and illustrated using CAD. There is nothing else you can do. The soils are sent for analysis and the site record written based on the stratigraphy of these soils.

There were 2 options when this site was discovered 1. Fully excavate it (which is what happened) 2. Preserve the site insitu ie. the moment it was realised it was something significant, cover it over with metres of topsoil and build the motorway on top of it. No posthole would be excavated and no information retrieved from the site. You can not excavate and preserve the site at the same time, it's a oxymoron. They could also have covered the site over with topsoil and reseeded it and moved the motorway in order to preserve it but then the site would be at risk from treasure hunters. It's not viable to want to move the motorway and excavate the site. You can't excavate a site and preserve it insitu. This is only remotely possible where you have upstanding features like walls or earthern banks.

There are hundreds of equally spectacular sites discovered in Ireland each year and excavated in advance of construction projects and NRA schemes but we never hear about those. If I hear another person saying the motorway is going through the Hill of Tara I am going to scream!!!

wrong,wrong wrong, the nra archaeologist should have never removed all the topsoil on it in one go first, that's archaeological malpractice.

who said the motorway is going through the hill of tara, you talk you pretend to know something about the profession but yet don't know the difference between Tara and the Hill of Tara.

http://www.savetara.com/articles/2007/122707_expert.html

lostexpectation

MYOB wrote: »

Because its the approved route, and construction has started. You're significantly too late to stop it under standard processes.

And once again, its going through neither the hill of or the village of Tara, its going through the Tara Skryne Valley - totally, totally different concept. The "archeological remains" are unconnected with what everyone automatically assumes when they hear "Tara", as proven in this very thread (where someone has made reference to High Kings, etc).

Its not my fault people misunderstand or deliberately misunderstand, I used the correct words.

the standard processes you mean the flawed, superficial and corrupt ones.

the archaeological remains are connected to Tara.

http://www.savetara.com/articles/2007/122707_expert.html

lostexpectation

[QUOTE=Wertz;54774326
It's all very well saying survey, catalogue, bury and move on....but what if they did come across something very significant? Bury that too?
To reiterate it's a poor poor planning decision....one amongst a litany of them. Our friend back up the thread with his house in Cavan, and hundreds nay thousands like him are of course entitled to an unclogged corridor to work...they've all paid their stamp duty and pay their fuel tax and all that....but the sheer idiocy in the planning that allowed thousands of homes to be built along a crumbling, antiquated road network has to seriously be looked at.[/QUOTE]

they may have paid for good road but they are not entitled to have motorways so they can drive hours to their jobs, you don't throw good money after bad. its sheer idocy that they should expect that.

L1011

lostexpectation wrote: »

who said the motorway is going through the hill of tara, you talk you pretend to know something about the profession but yet don't know the difference between Tara and the Hill of Tara.

http://www.savetara.com/articles/2007/122707_expert.html

Nobody did - its misinformation the "Save Tara" campaign NEVER correct however.

Its also not going through Tara - Tara is a village. Its going through the Tara Skryne Valley, totally and utterly different. Don't see any of the anti-road campaigners correcting this, or their campaign name, however.

You then yourself use the term "Tara" ambiguously as hell in your next post - which do you mean? The hill, the village or the valley?

lostexpectation

Wertz wrote: »

I infrequently use the N3 when I'm working in the meath area, which thankfully isn't that often. I agree it's a mess and a poses a road safety threat.
If it's of such importance then why not do a "warrington bypass" on it, get the riot cops out and just get the thing built and f*ck the hippy/environmentalist backlash?
Seems to me that the backing off done by government and local officials on this issue especially as we come closer to D-day, smacks of a lack of confidence in their own planning decision.
The appeals and subsequent delays are probably leading to cost overruns that could have been avoided by an earlier decision to spend more on the alternate route....but I agree; too late to start turning the supertanker now, easy to be wise after the event....my only concern now would be that sh*tty planning decisions like this in a time of great prosperity sets a precedent for other undesirable planning decisions down the line, especially when maybe the coffers aren't as full and there is less scope for taking an "alternate route" (I'm talking of planning in general, not just road building)

[edit]


I doubt it....all our planning especially in the meath area (schools, roads, health infrastructure) is reactive, never proactive, and even after the reaction it is usually inadequate for the needs of the area. Obviously it would have been a waste of money a decade back to build a road to "nowhere", but please don't for a minute tell me that the plans for building thousands of cloned dwellings in that particular "nowhere" hadn't been proposed years before they were actually built and sold. Another "We'll cross the bridge when we come to it" policy, that we're reeling from....one of many.

use riot cops to enforce bad planning!, wonderful election slogan there wertz you should go for the locals in 2009

PeakOutput

didnt read the whole thread so no doubt its been said already.

if this monument was not discovered by the excavations made as a result of the road being built it would have been destroyed due to farming in the area by the end of the next generation(according to my archaeologist friend i cant back that up).

finally just like with landfills / sewage / processing plants / dams / tunnels etc weather or not ROADS that benefit the entire country should be built or not should NOT be dictated by a local (minority) community.

we live a democracy majority rules get over it imo.

edited

lostexpectation

Archeron wrote: »

From the point of view of someone who lives in Meath and loves its history and archaeology, but who also realizes the importance of the county progressing and the part that major infrastructure will have on that, I have to say that those who represent the whole "save Tara" campaign that I have met and spoke with did absolutely no justice to their own cause at all. (one of them wanted an electric train from Navan to Rathoath, for some reason).

Perhaps their ideas are good, I dont know, but the problem is that most people will see what to all intents and purposes looks like a stoned hippy, and they will switch off. That makes people shallow, yes, but that wont come as much of a surprise to anyone, and if you're trying to change a government decision, than these are the things that should be taken into account.
Apologies to what I'm sure are well presented protestors out there, but I havent encountered any yet.

wow you didn't like hippies before and you don't like em, now I wonder what civil engineering degrees the councillors have

Wertz

lostexpectation wrote: »

they may have paid for good road but they are not entitled to have motorways so they can drive hours to their jobs, you don't throw good money after bad. its sheer idocy that they should expect that.

Of course they're entitled to it. If through bad planning, contrived property boom or otherwise, people are forced to commute ebcause they can't afford to buy locally then they should at least have a reasonably safe and fast means of doing so....they have paid their dues in many forms, not least in the stamp duty levied on their new house that they'll be paying for for another 25 yrs (and who knows how many stealth taxes on top).
My point is that the necesary road should have been built concurrently with the new housing it was to cater for rather than the current clusterf*ck people have been left with....okay perhaps some buyers had their rose-tints on at time of purchase and I have to question the sanity of people buying on the "promise" of a new m-way....but as mentioned other parts of the country that have seen similar population shifts have had their roads upgraded to cope...why shouldn't people who have moved to, or more importantly, those who already live in that region be catered for too?

lostexpectation wrote: »

use riot cops to enforce bad planning!, wonderful election slogan there wertz you should go for the locals in 2009

Take my post in context. It was a reply to MYOB's post. I'll reiterate, if the road was and is so important then it should have been properly planned for from the get go...but with so many people badly affected by how things currently stand on the N3 corridor and it's cost to both the local and the national economy through lost hours/days in traffic, and the social cost in terms of road accidents and bereavements, then why on earth is there so much pussyfooting around? If FF, (or whoever wants to take the blame for the mess) was in fact serious about anything other than their take home pay, then they would indeed force the road through by whatever means necessary (riot police being the most extreme method I could think of)...the fact that they leave it to the courts and the media and wash their hands of it by effectively letting the Greens carry the can speaks volumes.
I have no intention of running in either locals or nationals....you can't compete in our incumbent lead coucils and governments.

BTW multiquote is your friend...

PeakOutput

i should of read the thread before i posted tbh as there really is nothing to add to meathlass's post

lostexpectation

ednwireland wrote: »

doubt the hundreds of archeologists who worked on it would agree.
directors reports
http://www.nra.ie/Archaeology/NationalMonumentatLismullin/

they are paid to say that arn't they, these jokers didn't even know where the nearby rath lugh fort was until this summer, idiots, they didn't check.

some disagree http://www.savetara.com/articles/2007/122707_expert.html

http://www.nuigalway.ie/archaeology/Tara_Tribune_9-1-2004.html

ie the experts who wrote _the_ books on Tara.

lostexpectation

MYOB wrote: »

Nobody did - its misinformation the "Save Tara" campaign NEVER correct however.

Its also not going through Tara - Tara is a village. Its going through the Tara Skryne Valley, totally and utterly different. Don't see any of the anti-road campaigners correcting this, or their campaign name, however.

You then yourself use the term "Tara" ambiguously as hell in your next post - which do you mean? The hill, the village or the valley?

I mean Tara. Tara is a a group of monuments its pinnacle being located on the hill named Tara. I figure Tara was there bofore the village.

I see I already corrected you on this before and pointed out that it was the gombeen politicians using the phrase 'bulldozing the hill of tara', not the campaigners

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54414910&postcount=306

earlier I used the phrase Tara by itself somewhat ambiguously but correctly never ,purposely to check this exact nonsense from the pro-concrete people then two different people complained about posters saying its going through the hill of Tara,when they didn't, so again its the pro-concrete people who say that.

lostexpectation

Wertz wrote: »

Of course they're entitled to it. If through bad planning, contrived property boom or otherwise, people are forced to commute ebcause they can't afford to buy locally then they should at least have a reasonably safe and fast means of doing so.

there the ones getting in the way of transnational commuters and making the road less safe motorways are not made of thousands of people commuting daily for hours from home and to work.

lostexpectation

PeakOutput wrote: »

didnt read the whole thread so no doubt its been said already.

if this monument was not discovered by the excavations made as a result of the road being built it would have been destroyed due to farming in the area by the end of the next generation(according to my archaeologist friend i cant back that up).

finally just like with landfills / sewage / processing plants / dams / tunnels etc weather or not ROADS that benefit the entire country should be built or not should NOT be dictated by a local (minority) community.

we live a democracy majority rules get over it imo.

edited

we live in country with a corrupt planning process and unsustainable one at that.

lostexpectation

Meathlass wrote: »

There are hundreds of equally spectacular sites discovered in Ireland each year and excavated in advance of construction projects and NRA schemes but we never hear about those. If I hear another person saying the motorway is going through the Hill of Tara I am going to scream!!!

who said that?
actually the people who wrote the report on it said it was rare and unique.

and

The Lismullin post enclosure is one of the
most exciting archaeological discoveries of
recent times. A striking feature of the site is
its deliberately chosen landscape setting. That
this discreet area within the Tara landscape
was revisited and reused over a number of
millennia can be seen in the recorded features
dating to the Early and Middle Neolithic, the
Early Bronze Age, the early Iron Age and the
early medieval periods. Furthermore, the vast
majority of the prehistoric activity, although
somewhat episodic, appears to have been of
a ritual or ceremonial nature. This further
emphasises that the prehistoric inhabitants
of the Gabhra Valley perceived this area as
a special place.
http://www.nra.ie/Archaeology/Seanda-NRAArchaeologyMagazine/file,11163,en.pdf

I corrected some of your other waffle on tara in the history and heritage forum.