Christianity in the modern world.

Archeron

Asiaprod wrote: »

If every one was to fix their own heart and environment, if every religion was to accept that every individual already has the tools at their disposal, and the potential within themselves, to lead good productive lives, we might then, have the potential to create total world peace.

To fix ones own heart is great, but what if the heart that needs fixing is that of someones else? If the heart of one who affects your life quite seriously is dark, does it not through Human Nature cause resentment and bad feeling? It is those thoughts that I struggle with.
I dont wish to have nasty thoughts, but I feel that I am not able to control it, and to a point that the person deserves it. I imagine that these are, at the end of the day, selfish thoughts, but I dont know how to deal with them.
Thats probably why I should spend more time studying such subjects though I suppose. :rolleyes:

philologos

I know this might seem ridiculous. However, I will say it. Since I took the word of Christ and read it fully, seeking to apply it somewhat to the way I live, I found that there was a level of change in relation to these things. Personally, I used to have a terrible habit of swearing, this has now pacified, among the way I think and in the things I say (although I still slip in these departments).

bogwalrus

Life is not simple. Us humans cant conceive the reason for existence. But what we can conceive is the reasons why we should exist, and these reasons should be obvious,but social degredation makes it not obvious. If Dispose of your social dogmas and really open yourself to the world you will discover something special. It is that true love and compassion is out there and though very hard to find it is worth all the hardships of searching for.............

Asiaprod

Archeron wrote: »

To fix ones own heart is great, but what if the heart that needs fixing is that of someones else? If the heart of one who affects your life quite seriously is dark, does it not through Human Nature cause resentment and bad feeling?

Yes it does, very much so.
The solution, is to deal with that person through a heart filled with compassion and love. One can only be hurt if one lets oneself be hurt. And we humans just love to hurt ourselves. It is a survival trait, fear the worst and we are ready to deal with it. This is bull ****. We end up creating our own worst situations...by choice. People always respond to emotions like care, love, concern etc. What we see in these people is an external indication of the turmoil within.
Forget the external.
To treat this inner turmoil, we need to ignore the external signs and try to drill deep into the real causes. This brings us into a danger zone where our own emotions can turn against us and themselves can become a cause of more unhappiness for us. This is really bad unhappiness because we are creating it as a form of defense or shield. And we are controlling it.
A compassionate heart, acting with love for a person, will cut through this mess. Your own inner strength and resolve will become the driving force for change in and of itself, and one only needs to stay true ones own resolve to win. Gosh, this sounds like a lecture and it was not meant to be. In a nut shell, if you cannot find the belief in yourself that you can fix this situation, then you are correct, you cannot. If you stubbornly persist, with a heart filled with compassion and love, you cannot fail. It is impossible to fail.;) Fix your own heart first. Until you do this you really cannot help someone else to fix their own one. It all starts and ends with you. This problem is your environment. Fix your heart, you can then change your environment. Buddhism is gentle and compassionate, it is also hard and sever. I cannot remember the nuber of times I have cursed myself for taking this path. It is painful, But it always works, and I will never leave it.

Thats probably why I should spend more time studying such subjects though I suppose. :rolleyes:

Cool, half the battle is admitting to ourselves. I would urge you to study how to develop a heart filled with compassion and love. This one principle lies at the heart of the teachings of just about every religion. Highly unlikely that they all got it wrong:)

maitri

Asiaprod wrote: »

In a nut shell, if you cannot find the belief in yourself that you can fix this situation, then you are correct, you cannot.

The weird thing in my life is that very often when I am in a difficult situation and I try and try and try to fix it it doesn't work at all. Then at last I give up struggeling thinking "ok I can't fix this, I give it up", and then to my big surprise the problem suddenly is solved by itself.

For me "fixing" something very very often involves giving up trying to change things, and I don't know why.

Asiaprod

maitri wrote: »

For me "fixing" something very very often involves giving up trying to change things, and I don't know why.

Because Buddhism requires total surrender of the ego. You did your best and you learned what you were meant to learn from the situation. Once you had learned the lesson, you no longer required the situation, so it resolved itself. But only because you had learned the lesson, As I said before, Buddhism is gentle and compassionate, it is also hard and sever. We must kill our own ego, only through this path can things turn out right. Any time we have problems we normally deal with them from the "I" perspective. The key to success is to also look at them through the "You" perspective. Only when we can see the situation from the other persons perspective can we effect change

kelly1

MeditationMom wrote: »

Kelly1, could you please point me to the place in the Bible where Jesus himself says he is the "only" - or only begotten - son of God, the "only" way of salvation, and that sin comes from the heart?

Hello again A few quotes:-

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son;

John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Matthew 15:19 For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.

MeditationMom wrote: »

Heart and emotion are the same word in many languages, though, and easily confused. With "heart" I mean that which can go beyond reason or emotion from an inner place of knowing that is one with God. Even to the point of letting yourself be crucified.

I'm not really sure what Jesus meant when He said "heart". I presume it would imply love though and in particular our selfish love of sin.

MeditationMom wrote: »

To challenge you further since that is what we like to do here for fun - How sure are you Jesus said all of the above, and in precisely those words, meaning exactly what you think they mean? How can you be sure you actually understand what he meant with anything he is reported to have said, written down hundreds of years later?

The new testament was written by contemporaries of Jesus so it wasn't hundreds of years later. Out of faith in Jesus Christ, I believe that He instituted a Church for the teaching of the truth and the administration of the sacraments. I belive that God hasn't left us wandering in the wilderness so to speak. He has given us a Church to teach the absolute truth. If God hadn't revealed the truth, what kind of God would He be? We can't do His will if we don't know what He wants.

MeditationMom wrote: »

What within YOU can tell truth from lies, or divinely inspired scripture by later saints, from church propaganda? Faith is good, but not being able to differentiate truth from lies would not, and got Jesus crucified in the first place, by the faithful of his day.

As Jesus said, He is the way the truth and the life and I believe He did not abandon us without a guide. As the bible says in 1 Timothy 3:15, the Church in the pillar and foundation of the truth (and not the bible as many believe). Jesus also said that the the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into truth via the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:26) and that the Church would never be destroyed by the enemies of God (Mt 16:18).

MeditationMom wrote: »

I don't mean to say "don't have trust in God". Have trust in God, completely, but know that you do not know what God means, and cannot know, even after Jesus tells you in so many words, until you yourself enter the kingdom of God within. This is the birthright of all human beings on this earth, not just the "lucky" ones being born into a Christian religion.

True nobody understand God fully because God is infinite and we are finite. But Jesus did reveal all we need to know about God in this life. The Kingdom of God is only within to the extent that God's grace is within and this grace comes from baptism.

MeditationMom wrote: »

As far as I remember Jesus said we are all children of God, just like him.

I don't think Jesus ever equated Himself with us. For instance He said that "Before Abraham was, I am" meaning that He was never created. He is like us in His humanity but not in His divinity.

MeditationMom wrote: »

He said we have to become like little children (the same idea in Buddhism of beginner's mind) to reach the "kingdom within". Children are full of trust, love, faith, innocence, joy - for no reason, no scriptures, nor religions to trust, nor have faith in. It is a quality they have which we also need to have. It does not depend on any religion. Therefore I would say - don't always trust religions, but trust God.

I agree, there are countless false religions but God has established one true religion but few can accept this. We need to trust God's plan for the world like children.

MeditationMom wrote: »

All religions have the same problem. They think they are the only way to God and consider other people's "Gods" just teachers. Christians think they have "the only son of God, and only way to salvation", Jews think they are the "one and only chosen people of God", Muslims think Islam will be the only religion of the whole world, etc,etc. So we all insult each other. Buddhists try not to think

If each religion teaches different and conflicting things, it's natural to ask, which if any is true. They can't all be true. I believe that God has in fact established one religion on earth while the others are man-made. Only one can be true because of the contradiction. Without a true religion, God would have effectively abandoned us in a maze.

MeditationMom wrote: »

It is when you see that all the religions of the world - at the core - are the same and don't oppose each other that you are at the beginning of understanding any of them.

Sorry, this has no basis in reality. Christianity teaches one life followed by judgement by God. Buddhism teaches reincarnation and is agnostic. The two have little in common.

MeditationMom wrote: »

As far as Jesus goes, we only need to love him. Do we need a reason? Would you stop loving him if he weren't the only son of God? Would he then not be special enough? Would you not love him if he hadn't been crucified or been raised from the dead according to scripture? Would you stop loving him or his teachings if he were "just" a teacher? Let's not be blind to our need to follow who we perceive as "the most special, the highest, the best,the most enlightened". And the last question - How did so many Jewish people back then recognized him as good as God, and trusted his teachings if not with their hearts? This inner knowing beyond reason, beliefs, tradition or emotion, we all have? That place in us where we are not separate from God.

What you're saying sounds good, but it's too vague for my liking, sorry. God's truth has been revlealed to all of us and the truth is that sin is real and that Jesus paid the ransom for our sake in the most loving act that has ever happened.

It's late and I'm not really firing on all cylinders so my responses are not terribly well thought out but there you go.

God bless,
Noel.

MeditationMom

Such a dilemma - how not to hate, resent, dislike... the people who deserve it.

Here is one thing that can help, when all teachings fail us - this quote:

"Hating someone is like taking strong poison every morning, assuming it will hurt the other."

As we love or hate the other, we hurt or heal ourselves. Compassion for the undeserving improves our own ability to love. That is what our enemies are here for. Until we become like the sun which shines on everyone, deserving or not, and like God, who loves everyone, deserving or not, we will suffer.

Easier said than done when faced with violence, abuse, stupidity and indifference, if for example, someone kills or molests our child, or tries to beat us to death, or even "just" burns our house down. Yet, it is the only way out of suffering.

As they say in AA - pain, even severe pain, in life is unavoidable, suffering on the other hand, is optional.

bogwalrus

kelly1 wrote: »

I agree, there are countless false religions but God has established one true religion but few can accept this. We need to trust God's plan for the world like children.

People follow religeons like children but do not pursue the truth like adults.

I have no doubt in my mind that there will never be a synthesis between two conflicting philosophies of life such as christianity and buddhism but what i do see is a possible agreement on both sides that these are issues for the mind not the matter and should be kept clear of the physical functions and causalness of the world we live in.

Jesus did not come to earth to tell us the way to live. He was showing us a path to take which we had to choose. The decision was always on the person to heed the advice and do what felt to be right/good. How then does man who is the likeness of god not choose to go the right path? this world we live in is neither test nor punishment for the future or the past. We are not choosing to be good to be rewarded, this is not altruistic. And we feel pain not because we failed god in the past but becuase we need it to live.

God created man. Man can be said to be the likeness of god but this should not be taken literally. God did not establish christianity like you say, Man did. Jesus was man, the son of god. We are all gods children so we are no difference from jesus the son of god.

One thing i have always found is that the bible likes to complicate things through simplicity. If the bible truly was the word of god and was the embodyment of his will it would not have been written the way it was. and most definitely not written by biased man as man is the creator of suffering.

MeditationMom

kelly1 - thank you for the quotes. Good to know.

All your responses to all my other points are based on Christian scripture and faith in that scripture. It is not something one can really argue against. It is like a wife saying her husband is the only one to love on the planet and here are the reasons why. Who would want to talk her out of it, and for what?

As far as the original post by Archeron is concerned, though - unlike for you, Christian scripture and church combined - is not helping him at all. But, as you put it, God did not forget Archeron. Just like all roads lead to Rome, even when they go in opposite directions - all spiritual teachings, even when they seem to contradict each other, lead to God. To get to the center - God - you can come from many directions. The only way - is the way of compassion and Jesus was indeed pure compassion. In that sense it is true - "he" - as the embodiment of pure compassion - is the only way to God/the Father/which in Buddhism is more abstractly called Enlightenment or Nirvana. It is the same "thing".

Buddhism, or any other religion, is a wonderful place for Archeron to explore spiritual matters further, and actually gain a deeper understanding of his original religious upbringing. He is a truth seeker, unlike you, who are a believer. It is two different ways - opposite - but the same.

philologos

I don't believe all religions lead to God. However it is my choice to commit myself to Christ. However there are core truths in most of the worlds religions such as the Golden Rule. However the entire truth (in my belief) is to be found in Christianity.

As for the state of the heart. It is through being trained in a certain way that it will become pure. This in Christian terms is through the Eucharist, worship, and being in the mere presence of Jesus and the Father. I think this is something most Christians would agree with.

I believe Archeron hasn't explored the Christian road fully, and I fully encourage him to read the word of Jesus Christ and the words of the prophets in the Bible. The practical use of the Bible as a spiritual guide is impressive. It was the best thing I've ever done.

MeditationMom wrote:

As far as the original post by Archeron is concerned, though - unlike for you, Christian scripture and church combined - is not helping him at all.

This is the problem. He has not really consulted Christian scripture if you look to his original post.

Archeron wrote:

I have tried to read the bible, but....well.......

When faith is necessary, but the religion in which you search is apparently "questionable", in what direction does one travel?

I believe the reason why he finds the Christian faith questionable as he has not looked at it conclusively.

bogwalrus

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe the reason why he finds the Christian faith questionable as he has not looked at it conclusively.

The reason why he/she looks at the Christian faith as being questionable is because in order for you to be a true christian you have to take alot of things for granted that dont necessarily make any sense scientifically and more and more so have no relation to workings in the real world. Its idea of spirituality is just an image people hold in their heads but not actually understood and thought upon which i feel is a necessity. I have been to mass many times and seen the same numbers of people not pay attention and to just be there for the fact that at least they are there. I would say these people are not true christians. You show qualities of someone who truly does believe in their faith, you seem to have researched it and understand it as fact. You are indeed a true christian but you are in a minority when it comes down to facts, for the simple reason that christianity is just too out there to believe in and in order to believe in it you have to take so much for granted that does not relate to workings in the real world which we exist in. If christianity was the true religion of the world then alot more people would believe in it and alot less people would be leaving it. Its a fact and no you cant say it is because these people havent researched into it enough or they just dont understand or something else. People are smart and know what is true and what is false. There are so many people who are loving, considerate etc who are not religious at all because there is no point to it. It does nothing for people who wish to truly live.

In my local cathedral i look around and i come to the conclusion that maybe 5 people are true christians like yourself. This is a church of maybe 300.

People believe in a god and society shows them a good doing god who loves them. People will accept this and not questions this. And in not questioning this people become what is so obviosuly seen in our society-materialistic, violent,depressed and so on. Christianity can say to a lost sheep-come back because you have not researched all the facts yet or it can say open your eyes, look at the world, look at the true beauty of being alive, question humanity, question existence, question god and religions and if you find that you enjoy life more without a religion, so be it. Not just no your wrong and im right.

philologos

bogwalrus wrote:

The reason why he/she looks at the Christian faith as being questionable is because in order for you to be a true christian you have to take alot of things for granted that dont necessarily make any sense scientifically and more and more so have no relation to workings in the real world

Consult Miracles - C.S Lewis, brilliant book on this topic, I'm just more than half way through. Infact you can get all his Christian philosophy works in one volume here.

bogwalrus wrote:

People believe in a god and society shows them a good doing god who loves them. People will accept this and not questions this. And in not questioning this people become what is so obviosuly seen in our society-materialistic, violent,depressed and so on.

I don't quite think depression and violence comes from not questioning Christianity, but I do agree with the sentiments that you have. I used to be a passive Christian like the ones you describe in this Cathedral. I then decided to see what this Christianity thing was all about, started reading the Bible and made it to the end, then consulted other theological sources. Educated Christianity is also very much possible.

bogwalrus wrote:

Christianity can say to a lost sheep-come back because you have not researched all the facts yet or it can say open your eyes, look at the world, look at the true beauty of being alive, question humanity, question existence, question god and religions and if you find that you enjoy life more without a religion, so be it. Not just no your wrong and im right.

You can believe what ever you want. I'm not intending to force Christian theology on you. I however understand that only through Jesus Christ can people reform their lives as much as I did when I truly got into it. It's not just a myth or a joke as people often portrays it, I feel as if I'm living proof of it. I still have to push myself to go a certain step more, all the time I learn about God. I'm just as bad, and as sinful as the rest of mankind, however there is an option available to lift the slavery of sin. That is faith through Jesus.

I don't deny that there are many many characteristics which are positive in other religions, but you can only get so far. Through Christianity we get the whole way. I've mentioned things like the Golden Rule, among others which are common to the Christian faith, and I don't intend to criticise other peoples way of life, however I would like them to come to Christianity, I cannot deny that.

DublinWriter

MeditationMom wrote: »

In that sense it is true - "he" - as the embodiment of pure compassion - is the only way to God/the Father/which in Buddhism is more abstractly called Enlightenment or Nirvana. It is the same "thing".

I didn't think us Buddhists believed in an overarching monotheistic god?

The Mad Hatter

DublinWriter wrote: »

I didn't think us Buddhists believed in an overarching monotheistic god?

I think that depends on the Buddhist.

Asiaprod

Interesting questions being raised. It might be a nice idea for our welcomed guests to touch on the history of the Buddha to gain some perspective of the Buddhist world.

The Buddha was born 500 years before Christ, in what is now Nepal. His father was a king, his mother was a queen, and his father wanted him to take over the family business (the kingdom) when he got older. The kind of world the Buddha was born into was magical. Everything seemed to be alive. The trees, mountains, lakes, and sky were living and breathing with a variety of gods in charge. If you needed rain you asked one god, if you needed it to stop raining you asked another. The priests of India did all the religious work, and got paid for it.

At the age of 29, the Buddha stopped praying to the gods to end his suffering and the suffering of others. He left his family and friends, went to the edge of the forest, took off all his clothes and jewelry, covered his naked body with rags of cloth, cut off his hair and started to meditate. He became a mendicant, and It took him six years of hard work and much suffering, but in the end he was able to stop his suffering forever (Nirvana) and help others stop their suffering as well.

The Buddha did not believe in a God, the One God of the desert, the God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims, Monotheism was a foreign concept to the Buddha, his world was filled with many gods. The creator god Brahma being the most important one. The Buddha never left India. He walked from village to village and never in his entire lifetime went any further than 200 miles from his birthplace. In his entire teaching there is not even one reference that suggest how to find God or worship the god's of India, although the Buddha himself was a theist, and his teachings are non-theistic. The Buddha was more concerned with the human condition: Birth, Sickness, Old age, and Death.

The Buddhist path is about coming to a place of acceptance with these painful aspects of life, and not suffering through them. The Buddha was a human being who found his perfection in Nirvana. Because of his Nirvana, the Buddha is considered to be perfectly moral, perfectly ethical, and to have ended his suffering forever. Many Buddhists do believe in God, and many don’t believe in God; a lot of Buddhists just don’t know. All three points of view are acceptable if you’re Buddhist because suffering is more important than God in Buddhism.

When the Buddha was asked how the world started, he kept silent. In Buddhism we don’t have a first cause, instead we have a never ending circle of birth and death. In this world there are many beginnings and ends. The model of life used in Buddhism has no starting place; it just keeps going and going. If you’re a Buddhist you can believe God was the first cause, it really doesn't go against the teachings of the Buddha, his focus was on suffering. You can also believe science has the answer, such as the big bang theory, etc. Some Buddhist’s don’t even care how it all started. Knowing how the world started is not going to end your suffering, it’s just going to give you more to think about. God is not what Buddhism is about, suffering is. If you want to believe in God, as some Buddhists do, fine. But, Buddhist's don't believe God can end suffering. Only the teaching's of the Buddha can help us end suffering through wisdom and the activity of compassion.

I am a Buddhist that does not believe in a God. I believe that Jesus, if he did exist, was an enlightened teacher. He brought a clear and simple message, but the individuals of the time, as any good story tellers would, embellished the character and not the teachings. They made it more appealing by promising rewards or an escape, over looking the fact that personal suffering is the way to grow. IMO, it is not about asking an external entity to save us from the sufferings of life. I believe in general that we have to suffer in order to gain a clearer perspective, and in this way we save ourselves in this life and afford ourselves a better reincarnation/rebirth that enables us to help others attain the same. I have no idea where it all will end up and I do not not really care. I will decide when I get there. Buddhism is about the here and now and what I can do to help others suffering.

My thanks to Kusala Bhikshu, a very enlightened teacher from whom much of this dialogue is drawn.

18AD

I heard a slightly different/expanded version of the story myself.

In his early life Buddha was sheltered from all suffering. This was intended to help him and keep him in good spirits all the time. But one day he got away from the palace and noticed that there were old people and sick people around him that were suffering and this concerned him.
So after much thought he decided to leave behind the indulgence of his rich life and pursue that of a beggar. He abstained from food and shelter and inevitably became ill.
Realising then that over-indulgence and abstention were not the correct path to happiness he devised the idea of the middle path.

All the best.
AD.

Asiaprod

18AD wrote: »

I heard a slightly different/expanded version of the story myself.

Your account is the same:) I gave the abridged version as I was focusing on the God and Buddhism issue. In fact the original story is even worse. So much did the Buddha`s father wish to protect him that the Buddha was never allowed to leave the palace without first obtaining the consent of the king. Before the Buddha could journey forth, the king would send out his men to clear away the sick and unclean to ensure that the boy prince only saw joy and prosperity where ever he went. It was only when the Buddha dressed himself as a beggar and went out without the telling the king that for the fist time he saw the real suffering of the people which was the driving force for him to renounce his position, his wife and family, and devote his life to finding a release to the sufferings of life. The story goes on to say how he tried many of the practices, before becoming very ill. He then meditated on the problem on his own for many years before finally attaining enlightenment.

philologos

What sources do you use in looking towards the life of the Buddha?

MeditationMom

by DublinWriter -

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeditationMom View Post
In that sense it is true - "he" - as the embodiment of pure compassion - is the only way to God/the Father/which in Buddhism is more abstractly called Enlightenment or Nirvana. It is the same "thing".

by DublinWriter - I didn't think us Buddhists believed in an overarching monotheistic god?

I didn't think so either

Maybe I need to say what I mean differently - Buddhists believe in an overarching concept of compassion and kindness as the only path out of suffering; the only path to liberation. It is wrong really to call it a belief. It is more like a "scientific" law or rule, as in "The Golden Rule". Maybe Buddha wouldn't even say it is the only path - I don't know.

In Buddhists terms, Jesus was ego-less to the point of having compassion even for the very people who crucified him. This absence of his ego was his divine/enlightened presence. Only by this - this sacrifice of self, or giving up of his own will as in "thy will be done" - can we "go home to the father" (Christian term) - reach Nirvana (Buddhist term) - even though truly, we were never separated in the first place. This separation was just an illusion. Disillusionment is the painful path of the spiritual adventurer before freedom can come, with the last illusion being, that our life depends on our bodies.

Jesus' and Buddhas teachings are so similar in this regard - although with very different language used - that many think Jesus studied in the East during his "lost years".

Like Asiaprod said, to Buddhists - and Muslims - Jesus was a teacher, just like Buddha and Mohammed. Of course each religion feels their teacher is the best, or in extreme cases "the only one", or in some way closer to God or the truth than others. It's human nature. The closer to the truth, or God, we move - the more we realize there is nothing but God or truth and that includes all people, all religions, all things and they are in divine harmony and support of each other.

bogwalrus

Mom,

that is the most honest sense i have read on any of the atheist through christian forums since i have started posting. i would love to be able to explain my thoughts simply and concise like you are able to but that obviously takes practice and focus (through mediatation i believe)

One thing i will try to say that is always on my mind. Why is it that people keep talking about their bibles and their scripts and history of their religion when it is really irrelevant. The past always seems to be a factor in theistic belief and buddhist belief. Is it not the present and the future that is of concern. Does one need to know that budda did this and jesus did this to believe in a way of life. I certainly dont work like this. I love the buddhist philosophy on life but i do not study the scripts. I meditate and i try to be more compassionate and less egoistic-i do not strive for nirvana as i feel it to be more usefull to try and help others on this planet by trying to be more compassionate at the same time (if you get what i mean). I see wrong in the world with the more knowledge i gain and this should be a driving force to be proactive in the real world. i sometimes doubt the actions of buddhists to reach enlightenment for themselves as it seems to be very selfish when the real concern should be to show others the way to view life.

I saw a documentary last night called "the mummy of tibet"
It was a fascinating documentary/story about the different sacrifices buddhists made through mediation to try and bring prosper to the dwindling argiriculture of their villages.One monk saw that their village would not last one year with the poor irrigation and climate problems so he decided to climb to a ridge cabin and miditate til he died. He tied that ritual meditating strap around his neck and under his knees so when he could no longer meditate through hunger he would then die from strangulation. the documentary was focusing mainly on the lack of decomposition that had happened to the monk. The monk i am talking about is 500yrs old and his body is perfectly mummified because his mind was meditating at the point of death. but it was showing that his actions were truly altruistic also. But this i also have a problem with. though it is admirable, it is very hard to accept that he was not also doing this sacrifice for himself,to reach nirvana. I believe alot of old history and stories etc are getting in the way to try and bring focus to our societies. People are erratic in this day and age. They cluelessly look for religions and ways to be happy through these religions but in fact they are not finding happyness as they are only looking to find happyness for themselves-compassion obviously being the significant thing missing here.

I must admit i am a bit of a lost sheep (not in the christian sense) but i speak very truly of what i feel and is obvious to me.

coffee_cake

bogwalrus wrote:

I meditate and i try to be more compassionate and less egoistic-i do not strive for nirvana as i feel it to be more usefull to try and help others on this planet by trying to be more compassionate at the same time (if you get what i mean). I see wrong in the world with the more knowledge i gain and this should be a driving force to be proactive in the real world. i sometimes doubt the actions of buddhists to reach enlightenment for themselves as it seems to be very selfish when the real concern should be to show others the way to view life.

I suppose you would view the bodhisattva vow as an ideal then
They vow to be reborn instead of achieving final enlightenment, so that they can help others along the way.

bogwalrus

Well i like to mediatate cause it does help me focus. I dont mediatate cause i think i am saving other people by doing it. Be it to the death or not=) It when i have done my meditating things are more calm, easy and clear and i can be more productive. Great stuff meditating is. I do see a point where if you meditated long enough and apply the golden rule through this you can do alot of good by focusing on others poblems as you will be creating a path of compassion in the people you see and meet. I did meditate one day that i would want to see people being truly compassionate all day and my my did i see it=)

kelly1

MeditationMom wrote: »

Like Asiaprod said, to Buddhists - and Muslims - Jesus was a teacher, just like Buddha and Mohammed. Of course each religion feels their teacher is the best, or in extreme cases "the only one", or in some way closer to God or the truth than others.

MM, one of the things that convinces me that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life is His uniqueness. e.g.

- Only Jesus claimed to be the *only* Son of God
- Only Jesus claimed to have existed eternally.
- Only Jesus died for our sins.
- Jesus claims to be the only way to the Father.
- Only Jesus has the power to judge us (John 5:22)
- He lived a perfect, sinless life.
- Only Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins.
- Jesus performed many miracles including raising the dead to life
and had power over the elements and demons.
- The events of Jesus' life are accurately predicted in the Old Testament.
- Only Jesus resurrected from the dead.
- Only Jesus was born of a virgin.

No other major religious leader can or has claimed any of these things.

MeditationMom wrote: »

It's human nature. The closer to the truth, or God, we move - the more we realize there is nothing but God or truth and that includes all people, all religions, all things and they are in divine harmony and support of each other.

In all seroiusness, how can you claim that all religions lead to God when different religions teach very different things. Christianity for example teaches that we are all in need of salvation and that only Jesus save us while buddhism says we don't need to be saved and that we reach Nirvana through our own effort. There's nothing in common between these teachings! If Christianity is true, then Buddhism is very dangerous in terms of saving one's soul and if Buddhism is true, Christ died in vain.

Sorry, but this kind of wishy, washy "we all going to heaven" kind of thinking really doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

God bless,
Noel.

Asiaprod

Jakkass wrote: »

What sources do you use in looking towards the life of the Buddha?

Sorry Jakkass, I thought I had replied. Like your own path, there are hundreds of sources. Start with Wiki and check the references. Also bear in mind there are also like your path a lot of Buddhist sects. Still the story of the Buddha's life remains consistent, the interpretations are what mostly vary.

coffee_cake

Asiaprod wrote: »

Sorry Jakkass, I thought I had replied. Like your own path, there are hundreds of sources. Start with Wiki and check the references. Also bear in mind there are also like your path a lot of Buddhist sects. Still the story of the Buddha's life remains consistent, the interpretations are what mostly vary.

Added to which, I personally feel that the message and teachings are far more important than his actual life. Even if he never existed, I still find them valid and useful.

18AD

Jakkass wrote: »

What sources do you use in looking towards the life of the Buddha?

Not sure tbh. I was told about it. I'd be interested in that myself.

Asiaprod wrote:

Your account is the same:) I gave the abridged version as I was focusing on the God and Buddhism issue.

Good stuff. Keeping on topic and whatnot Is there a mythological version and a factual version? Or are they interwoven into one? As I recall hearing some fairly suspect things about his birth/life that seemed more symbolic.

Kelly1: Have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Christianity

It's one thing reading it, but to find your own connections between anything is a very enjoyable undertaking.
What would the opposite of divide and conquer be? Unify and encourage?:p

All the best.
AD.

Asiaprod

18AD wrote: »

Good stuff. Keeping on topic and whatnot Is there a mythological version and a factual version? Or are they interwoven into one? As I recall hearing some fairly suspect things about his birth/life that seemed more symbolic.

Like any story, there are all kinds of variations. I go with bluewolf's take that the message and teachings are far more important than his actual life. Even if he never existed. They are valid and useful, and as we grow and learn we learn to interpret them differently. I think this process is very important.

philologos

bluewolf wrote: »

Added to which, I personally feel that the message and teachings are far more important than his actual life. Even if he never existed, I still find them valid and useful.

Although the sources of these teachings might have brilliant analogies to life, surely it is important to look from authenticity. How are these messages structured. I've heard of the Pali Canon but it's not fully translated to English is it?

coffee_cake

Jakkass wrote: »

Although the sources of these teachings might have brilliant analogies to life, surely it is important to look from authenticity. How are these messages structured. I've heard of the Pali Canon but it's not fully translated to English is it?

I was thinking of the sutras and so on.
As for authenticity, the best test is to find out for yourself if the teachings work for you or not. That is the whole point. It doesn't matter if a randomer came up with them anytime - if they work for you, they work for you.
I wouldn't take the words of the buddha as gospel simply because of what he did and achieved, if I disagreed with them etc.