Christianity in the modern world.

Archeron

I apologize to post this rant here, but I really feel this where it belongs.

As time goes on, in modern Ireland, everything seems to be discussed in terms of time absorbed and profit.
As a doubting Christian, I find myself more and more looking towards the horizon for other ideas as to how and what life should be.
I think I am officially lost.

Should I, as a Christian respect the teachings of that which has been put before me, or should I follow my heart and look to other places? The church has never offered me answers, nor has it offered places I can search for alternatives.

I have tried to read the bible, but....well.......

When faith is necessary, but the religion in which you search is apparently "questionable", in what direction does one travel?

18AD

I think there is a lot of truth in christianity. I think the problem is that people are telling others what it's all about. The only way to understand these things is to live. Living your life is where you will find your own truths and you can interpret ancient texts in accordance with your personal experience.

You're not lost, you're just going for a walk through the woods and think you have somewhere to go... but the journey IS the destination.

Good luck.
AD.

Scofflaw

Archeron wrote: »

I apologize to post this rant here, but I really feel this where it belongs.

As time goes on, in modern Ireland, everything seems to be discussed in terms of time absorbed and profit.
As a doubting Christian, I find myself more and more looking towards the horizon for other ideas as to how and what life should be.
I think I am officially lost.

Should I, as a Christian respect the teachings of that which has been put before me, or should I follow my heart and look to other places? The church has never offered me answers, nor has it offered places I can search for alternatives.

I have tried to read the bible, but....well.......

When faith is necessary, but the religion in which you search is apparently "questionable", in what direction does one travel?

As a matter of interest, do you mean "faith in a god", "faith in a religion", "some form of spirituality", or other (please indicate).

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Archeron wrote: »

When faith is necessary, but the religion in which you search is apparently "questionable", in what direction does one travel?

Inward. I believe that Meditation Mom covered this awhile ago. Let me see if I can find it.

Archeron

Scofflaw wrote: »

As a matter of interest, do you mean "faith in a god", "faith in a religion", "some form of spirituality", or other (please indicate).

cordially,
Scofflaw

I suppose to put it as best I can, faith in something higher than that which we see all around us every day, be that God, religion or spirituality.
I feel that faith for me is necessary because I have very little of it when it comes to the world around me and the majority of the people in it. While I want to believe that which I have been taught in relation to my own religion, I find increasingly that either I cant, or I dont. I know not really sure which.

Perhaps that makes me some sort of coward who doesn't like to face the potential reality of a world WITHOUT some sort of higher level, I don't know, but the faith into which I was born does not allow one to even look in the other direction, never mind travel in it.
I ask this question within this forum as I personally feel that some of the wisest words I've read in relation to spiritual matters have come from here.

Asiaprod, thanks for that, I'd be interested to read any threads you can find.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

take the plunge, do away withj your religion and learn more about science. It'll fill you with a) more wonder than any god ever could
b) actual workable knowledge about the world
c) It builds upon itself, the more you know the more you can know.

you don't need a god to bring wonder into your life, just head into the woods some weekend for an hour or so and listen to the sounds of the trees, birds, animals... *that* is as close as a human can get to a true 'spiritual' experience without chemical assistance.

Scofflaw

Hmm. It's certainly not necessary to believe in a God to be spiritual. In particular, the idea that atheism must be either arid and intellectual or a self-involved glorying in one's own 'brightness' is completely false.

We do lack the enormous pleasure of submission to a superior force which characterises the Abrahamic religions, but there are paths like Taoism and forms of Buddhism (Asia will correct me if necessary) which involve a form of submission to the flow of life. Further, many of the realisations of Buddhism flow fairly naturally from atheism.

Something which I would consider it vital to realise, though, about atheism, is that it is only the statement "I do not believe in God" - after that, there are no further requirements , and you are free to form your own conclusions.

My own sense of "something larger than everyday life" is based on the following observations, some of which positively add further dimensions, and others of which simply leave space for further dimensions:

1. one thing we know for certain through science is that we have only begun ploughing the surface of knowledge. Most of what there is to know, we don't.

2. despite all the techniques we now have for observing reality, we remain limited to observation. Vision shows us only what is visible of what is real, not reality itself.

Between those two points I find that there is a lot of room for the unknown, and some for the unknowable.

Personally, my own sense of meaning is largely supplied by inverting the idea that human existence in the absence of God is meaningless. I am as 'meaningful' as anything else - stars, galaxies, the whole shebang - and I find that this keeps me adequately supplied with meaningfulness most of the time. Obviously, an enormous ego helps here. Spirituality is largely supplied by the standard Buddhist recognition of the transience of life, and my sense of awe and gratitude comes from the sheer improbability of everything.

To be honest, I find myself slightly at a loss to understand why the idea of God supplies meaning in the first place. Yes, God has a plan for us - so? What makes God's plans particularly meaningful?

cordially,
Scofflaw

gillyfromlyre

The way I see it is, anyone who is searching is on the right path, at least your not lying awake thinking of paris hilton's new hair cut or britney spears lyrics

Asiaprod

Nice post Scofflaw. I specially like

Hmm. It's certainly not necessary to believe in a God to be spiritual. In particular, the idea that atheism must be either arid and intellectual or a self-involved glorying in one's own 'brightness' is completely false.

and

Something which I would consider it vital to realise, though, about atheism, is that it is only the statement "I do not believe in God" - after that, there are no further requirements , and you are free to form your own conclusions.

Nicely put.

We do lack the enormous pleasure of submission to a superior force which characterises the Abrahamic religions, but there are paths like Taoism and forms of Buddhism (Asia will correct me if necessary) which involve a form of submission to the flow of life. Further, many of the realisations of Buddhism flow fairly naturally from atheism.

No correction required, nail on the head. My path would be a submission to the flow of life

I am as 'meaningful' as anything else - stars, galaxies, the whole shebang - and I find that this keeps me adequately supplied with meaningfulness most of the time.

Again, nail on the head.

Spirituality is largely supplied by the standard Buddhist recognition of the transience of life, and my sense of awe and gratitude comes from the sheer improbability of everything.

You really should post here more often, you present a very refreshing outlook.

Archeron, there is a lot of depth in Scofflaw's post. Feel free to ask.

MeditationMom

by Arcgeron - I apologize to post this rant here, but I really feel this where it belongs.

As time goes on, in modern Ireland, everything seems to be discussed in terms of time absorbed and profit.
As a doubting Christian, I find myself more and more looking towards the horizon for other ideas as to how and what life should be.
I think I am officially lost.

You are not lost. But it sounds like the Irish Christian/Catholic Church has lost YOU. This is an entirely different matter. You are starting to actually find yourself. In other words, you are starting to trust you own judgment, heart, mind etc. Looking towards other religions, science, philosophies and even atheism is going to broaden your horizon of ideas, but even then, you will need to return to what resonates with YOU, to find out what is true.

by Archeron - Should I, as a Christian respect the teachings of that which has been put before me, or should I follow my heart and look to other places? The church has never offered me answers, nor has it offered places I can search for alternatives.

Don't leave any stone unturned!!!

by Archeron - I have tried to read the bible, but....well.......

Take a magic marker and highlight every sentence in the bible YOU agree with100%. After you do that, do the same to any other scriptures of other religions you come across. Contemplate the things you have highlighted.

by Archeron - When faith is necessary, but the religion in which you search is apparently "questionable", in what direction does one travel?

The faith you need is not faith in any religion. That is always what the church wants you to do. The faith you need - and this you can take from Christianity, or me, or many others, is this: "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free!" Trust that, whatever it is you don't understand will be revealed to you, bit by bit, as is best for you. Keep an attitude of trust, love, expectancy, open mindedness and open hearted-ness towards existence, life, the universe, God, yourself. Spend time is nature, in silence. Listen.

Jesus left his church, his faith, and its elders behind also!

Here is one of my favorite quotes:

By Ramana Maharshi: "No one doubts that he exists, though you may doubt the existence of God. If you find out the truth about yourself and discover your own source, this is all that is required."

Archeron

Thank you all for your responses. There is a lot of things I must investigate.
I imagine I will be back into this forum for advice in the future

beans

"No one doubts that he exists, though you may doubt the existence of God....

Could this be interpreted as "If you accept 'God', you may doubt the existance of your self... if you find out the truth about yourself and discover your own source, this is all that is required"? That's how it jumped out at me.

Abandon the ego, embrace the fact that all is one, then you can begin.

philologos

Archeron wrote:

I have tried to read the bible, but....well.......

As someone who decided to do this to get a deeper perspective to my faith. I'd say yes definetely make a concious effort to do so.

Asiaprod

Jakkass wrote: »

As someone who decided to do this to get a deeper perspective to my faith. I'd say yes definetely make a concious effort to do so.

Hi Jakkass and very welcome. This is a peaceful place, I lookforward to your input here:)

philologos

Asiaprod wrote: »

Hi Jakkass and very welcome. This is a peaceful place, I lookforward to your input here:)

Thanks, I look forward to adding to my very limited knowledge on Buddhism.

MeditationMom

Hi Beans,

Quote:
"No one doubts that he exists, though you may doubt the existence of God....
Could this be interpreted as "If you accept 'God', you may doubt the existance of your self... if you find out the truth about yourself and discover your own source, this is all that is required"? That's how it jumped out at me.

Abandon the ego, embrace the fact that all is one, then you can begin.

This quote does not say to accept God and then doubt one's own existence. Although this could also be an approach. That would be deep faith and surrender of self, which is many people's approach. Embrace the fact that all is one - although true, is still faith, not experience.

Instead, this recommendation means: start where you are. You know you exist. God's existence is not obvious, it is matter of blind faith, trust, surrender, belief etc. This is difficult, and not possible for especially intellectual, scientific minded, seekers who want to know the truth, not just believe in it as it is being passed on to them by the enlightened ones, and then by their less enlightened interpreters.

He says this is OK. Don't struggle with trying to have faith in something you have trouble believing in.

Start with yourself. You exist. Now what does that mean? Get to the bottom of this knowing that you exist. What if you lost your legs in a car accident and two thirds of your body were simply gone? Would you feel only one third of you now existed? The deeper you look, the more you will find that your existence is not at all related to your body, but it is where you have to start looking.

So what is, and where is the source of this existence? Is not the source of your existence the source of all of existence? Where would the separation be?
And in the end you find, that this source is what is called God - or Nirvana - or Enlightenment - and you are that - and not you. Like the wave realizing it is the ocean.

Your approach would be the wave saying "I believe in the ocean, and I do not exist." It is humble, and it has brought people to self-realization. Maybe it is your path if that is what the statement said to you.

The other approach is - all I know is that I am a wave. But where do I start and where do I end. What becomes of me when I "run my course" crashing on the beach? Deep reflection, looking, relaxing, meditating, trusting - all combine over time to "discover your source". It is not that you exist, it is that you and existence are one. The infinite manifestations of the universe all have the same source - which, I hate to tell you - but - we are in the Buddhist forum here - is no source

"Source" in our minds is a point of origin in time and space. This "source" we are talking about exists beyond time and space - which are illusions of motion of matter.

I know this teacher very well and know from many other sayings of his, how he meant this statement. Nonetheless - I like you idea as well.

Yes, this is a good place to begin.

pid()

MeditationMom wrote: »

Hi Beans,





This quote does not say to accept God and then doubt one's own existence. Although this could also be an approach. That would be deep faith and surrender of self, which is many people's approach. Embrace the fact that all is one - although true, is still faith, not experience.

Instead, this recommendation means: start where you are. You know you exist. God's existence is not obvious, it is matter of blind faith, trust, surrender, belief etc. This is difficult, and not possible for especially intellectual, scientific minded, seekers who want to know the truth, not just believe in it as it is being passed on to them by the enlightened ones, and then by their less enlightened interpreters.

He says this is OK. Don't struggle with trying to have faith in something you have trouble believing in.

Start with yourself. You exist. Now what does that mean? Get to the bottom of this knowing that you exist. What if you lost your legs in a car accident and two thirds of your body were simply gone? Would you feel only one third of you now existed? The deeper you look, the more you will find that your existence is not at all related to your body, but it is where you have to start looking.

So what is, and where is the source of this existence? Is not the source of your existence the source of all of existence? Where would the separation be?
And in the end you find, that this source is what is called God - or Nirvana - or Enlightenment - and you are that - and not you. Like the wave realizing it is the ocean.

Your approach would be the wave saying "I believe in the ocean, and I do not exist." It is humble, and it has brought people to self-realization. Maybe it is your path if that is what the statement said to you.

The other approach is - all I know is that I am a wave. But where do I start and where do I end. What becomes of me when I "run my course" crashing on the beach? Deep reflection, looking, relaxing, meditating, trusting - all combine over time to "discover your source". It is not that you exist, it is that you and existence are one. The infinite manifestations of the universe all have the same source - which, I hate to tell you - but - we are in the Buddhist forum here - is no source

"Source" in our minds is a point of origin in time and space. This "source" we are talking about exists beyond time and space - which are illusions of motion of matter.

I know this teacher very well and know from many other sayings of his, how he meant this statement. Nonetheless - I like you idea as well.

Yes, this is a good place to begin.

As always, a wonderful post from Mom. Thanks.

MeditationMom

Thank you , pid() - waving at you \ / \ / \ /

izzyflusky

I know this is a forum about Buddhism. I was just reading (I don't know anything about Buddhism tbh) until I came across your post. I'm assuming you come from a catholic background, in that case (not trying to attack any1 here), I know they usually don't give you answers thinking you won't be able to understand them, or mayb they just don't know, can't really say. But I have a question for you, have you ask God to teach you, to answer your questions? or maybe send some1 to you that could guide you, as to where to find those questions? If you haven't maybe you should. And with His help you will be able to understand through His word (the bible).

http://www.bible.ie/

Archeron

izzyflusky wrote: »

I know this is a forum about Buddhism. I was just reading (I don't know anything about Buddhism tbh) until I came across your post. I'm assuming you come from a catholic background, in that case (not trying to attack any1 here), I know they usually don't give you answers thinking you won't be able to understand them, or mayb they just don't know, can't really say. But I have a question for you, have you ask God to teach you, to answer your questions? or maybe send some1 to you that could guide you, as to where to find those questions? If you haven't maybe you should. And with His help you will be able to understand through His word (the bible).

http://www.bible.ie/

Thanks for your post izzyflusky.
Yes, I do come from a Catholic background. At one time, religion was a big thing in my life, and most of the adults around me as a child were quite religious. Over the years, the scandals and the rest turned most of these people off. As a result, I actually became closer to my religion as I hated the idea of a world without religion, or more specifically, a world without belief in a being based on pure good. Over the years, events in my life have happened that led me down the extremely selfish and poorly conceived path of believing that there could not be a God, and therefore to question the basis of my whole faith. Childish I know, but thats just the basic way my mind works.
In saying that though, I still believe that there has to be a spiritual element to everything, and that is the reason I like to try and keep my mind open. Buddhism is one faith that has always intrigued me, and I get great learning and enjoyment from reading some of the posts up here.
I have in my prayers asked God to help me learn, and I have prayed for many many hours. Perhaps I do it incorrectly, but I never seem to actually receive any advice in that regard. Unless of course, the advice I receive is to investigate other faiths, in which case I'm really confused
I suppose sometimes its easier to vent on a keyboard to an online forum than to talk about spirituality in your daily life. I still feel that a lot of society in general is quite hostile towards religions or faiths generally, so its good to have a virtual place to learn a little and discuss such matters.

izzyflusky

(If some1 here reading this is a catholic and is offended, I'm not trying that at all. I'm genuinly trying to give advice,or my opinion to Archeon)

Well, I'm not catholic, I'm a new born christian. I find that catholisism is very...religion based I suppose. What I mean by this is that they concentrate is in rituals and traditions rather than in their spiritual life and relationship with God. Like the priest is meant to know a lot about the bible and things but doesn't necessarily answer people's questions or their spiritual growth. Rather than that, he says the same mass every sunday, gives communion and that's it.
Tbh I would find it hard to keep my interest towards God in that situation too.
While I was never a catholic, many friends and my boyfriend were. In fact, he used to be an altar boy. He grew outta the whole thing for the reasons I mentioned above. And I can see how it can be frustating. But one thing I'm completely sure of, God is there! and it shouldnt be about "religion", it should be about Him, how he sent his son to die on the cross for you and me, and our relationship with Him.
If you really want someone to kind of point you at the right direction on where to look in the bible or just talk about this. Someone that knows, because as much as I REALLY want to help you I don't think I have the knowledge. I can give you a phone number where you can call and the questions you have, or just say what you just said here.

PHONE # EDITED, THATS A NO NO. CONECT VIA PM TO PASS ON THAT KIND OF INFO PLS
ASIA

If you don't really want to call I can give you his e-mail, but you'll have to ask me if you are interested because I have to look for it lol.
Sorry for not being that much help!

kelly1

Scofflaw wrote: »

Yes, God has a plan for us - so? What makes God's plans particularly meaningful?

If we believe that God is the ultimate reality and that God is omniscient and He is the Creator of all life, then of course God's plan is the best plan. God is infinite wisdom and love so He knows what our ultimate destiny is supposed to be. God's plan for us is so wonderful that it's, far, far beyond our tiny powers of comprehension.

kelly1

Archeron wrote: »

As a doubting Christian, I find myself more and more looking towards the horizon for other ideas as to how and what life should be. I think I am officially lost.

Hello Archeron. With respect, I would say that your are lost. I believe that road you're on is very similar to the road I was on about 6 years ago. Back then I swallowed heaps of books on new-age/yoga/toaism/buddhism/krishnamurthi/yogananda etc and thank God my eyes were opened. People will laugh, but there is a loving/personal God who created everything in this universe and there is only one way to reach God and that is via Jesus Christ. Jesus can be thought of as the only bridge between Heaven and earth. Beneath the bridge is a dangerous river full of the traps of false doctrines and sin.

Don't let anyone tell you that sin doesn't exist or that we are reach "enlightenment" by self effort. Sin is real and sin keeps us from God and only the blood of Jesus (God the Son incarnate) can pay the price which satisfies divine justice.

Archeron wrote: »

Should I, as a Christian respect the teachings of that which has been put before me, or should I follow my heart and look to other places?

Following your own heart is not a good idea because we have two natures which work in opposition. Our lower carnal nature fights against the higher spiritual nature and unfortunately it's all too easy to choose the former. The latter requires a determined will and effort. Buddhism teaches that desire is the cause of all suffering but without good desires, God can't be found. I followed my "heart" and it lead me down the wrong road.

Archeron wrote: »

The church has never offered me answers, nor has it offered places I can search for alternatives.

I used to believe that too. I thought the Church was either ignorant or was keeping people in the dark. Not so. The (absolute) "Truth" has taught by Jesus Christ and handed down to His apostles and the Church teaches this same truth today. We are not without a compass, the path to Heaven is clearly marked out for us in the Gospels and the teachings of the Church.

Archeron wrote: »

I have tried to read the bible, but....well.......

Have you asked the Holy Spirit to give you guidance and understanding?

God bless and a happy new year. I'll pray for you

Noel.

Schuhart

kelly1 wrote: »

God's plan for us is so wonderful that it's, far, far beyond our tiny powers of comprehension.

But if his plan is so far beyond our comprehension, how do we know its wonderful? How do we know his plan isn't to breed us as the cosmic equivalent of fish bait? Which I know means we're fecked, so there's hardly a point in worrying about it.

More to the point, is it not more likely that whatever cause (in the widest sense) there is for all this isn't particularly concerned about us. (Which gives me an excuse to, once again, link a Hilaire Belloc story that I like more than a decent person should.)

18AD

Nice story there Schuhart!

I don't think there is a plan or a goal. It's all a process. And you choose how to flow through it. There is no end goal of enlightenment or being saved or what-have-you. But there may very likely be an end and it's up to us how the end state is.

It's not like one finds god or is enlightened and then says, 'sweet, I won the game, now I can arse around for eternity.'

Also, evolution is doing a good job of keeping the majority on a developing journey. Even though the more fundamental 'objects' are random interacting energy waves. That's a pretty random plan.

As an aside: Why is it that god is separate from you? Are you separate from nature? No way! Especially if you view him to be everywhere and everything and then some.
This connecting to god through jesus seems to me to be only one of many possible routes to unity with the divine.
It seems strikingly similar to the hindu method of devotion.
Or even the esoteric use of your own higher guardian angel to connect with the divine.

All the best.
AD.

kelly1

Schuhart wrote: »

But if his plan is so far beyond our comprehension, how do we know its wonderful? How do we know his plan isn't to breed us as the cosmic equivalent of fish bait? Which I know means we're fecked, so there's hardly a point in worrying about it.

God's general plan is clearly laid out in the bible. Knowing God's individual plan for each of us requires prayer.

What is beyond our comprehension is the glory of God and the imagination of what life in union with God would be like.

What I sometimes find hard to fathom is why God is good and futhermore infinitely so. Maybe it's just my limited intelligence but I find this question deeply philosophical (metaphysical?). My guess would be that a god who wasn't perfect couldn't be the ultimate reality as he would be self-destructive and a perfect God couldn't change and therby become imperfect. But I digress...

MeditationMom

People hold many ideas about God in their minds and hearts, even the idea that he is beyond their comprehension, or that he doesn't exist. Until all those ideas and opinions are dissolved, there is no union. Only union gives certainty.

On this path towards truth - trust, surrender, faith, love, devotion. etc, etc, are all good, if not essential practices, even for the atheist trusting only in his own judgment. Only when faith and devotion, etc, become covers for hate, control, suspicion etc. is there a problem and we get what we have in the world - war, discord, bloodshed.

Scriptures are both helpful - and great distractions. The heart is more reliable and is what Jesus and all the other teachers followed. Most people initially confuse following their heart with following their emotions and all kinds of mayhem results. Nonetheless, only by experimenting, watching, and learning for ourselves can we discover the difference. Ultimately, all paths lead home, because we are already home, and just don't know it. Until we reunite with this truth - completely - we wonder or imagine what or who God is, what his plan is, which scriptures are superior, etc, etc, or whether God exists in the first place. Amazingly enough - there seems to be real benefit in talking to ourselves, as if we were talking to God :rolleyes:

kelly1

Hello MM, I'd like to make few points if I may.

First Jesus is more that a teacher. He is the one and only Son of God and is God the Son. That does not mean that He is separate from God but He is more like a perfect mirror image of His Father. The Son "proceeds" from the Father and is one with the Father. The difference with Jesus is that He has a human body which the Father and the Holy Spirit don't have and this body/humanity is untied with His divinity. Lecture over

As regards Jesus telling us to follow our hearts, I would dispute this. Our hearts are not a reliable compass and in fact Jesus said that sin comes from the heart. Why is there so much strife in the world today if we are capable of guiding ourselves to the truth? What we're missing is trust in God. We're too selfish.

On the point that all paths lead to God, again I would strongly disagree. All religions can't be true because they contradict each other. e.g. Jesus taught that He alone can bring salvation. If it is true that we are only apparently separate from God, then why do we need to be saved? The truth is that sin is real and that life is not an illusion. Why would Jesus have died a horrible death on the cross if we could enter the ultimate reality by self effort and reincarnation?? Was He mad? No way!

God bless,
Noel.

MeditationMom

Kelly1, could you please point me to the place in the Bible where Jesus himself says he is the "only" - or only begotten - son of God, the "only" way of salvation, and that sin comes from the heart?

Nonetheless, I would still say that sin comes from the emotions. Otherwise we could not kill in Jesus' name, or leave our children in the dust for a new lover "following our heart". In that sense you are right.

Heart and emotion are the same word in many languages, though, and easily confused. With "heart" I mean that which can go beyond reason or emotion from an inner place of knowing that is one with God. Even to the point of letting yourself be crucified.

To challenge you further since that is what we like to do here for fun - How sure are you Jesus said all of the above, and in precisely those words, meaning exactly what you think they mean? How can you be sure you actually understand what he meant with anything he is reported to have said, written down hundreds of years later? What within YOU can tell truth from lies, or divinely inspired scripture by later saints, from church propaganda? Faith is good, but not being able to differentiate truth from lies would not, and got Jesus crucified in the first place, by the faithful of his day.

I don't mean to say "don't have trust in God". Have trust in God, completely, but know that you do not know what God means, and cannot know, even after Jesus tells you in so many words, until you yourself enter the kingdom of God within. This is the birthright of all human beings on this earth, not just the "lucky" ones being born into a Christian religion.

As far as I remember Jesus said we are all children of God, just like him. He said we have to become like little children (the same idea in Buddhism of beginner's mind) to reach the "kingdom within". Children are full of trust, love, faith, innocence, joy - for no reason, no scriptures, nor religions to trust, nor have faith in. It is a quality they have which we also need to have. It does not depend on any religion. Therefore I would say - don't always trust religions, but trust God.

All religions have the same problem. They think they are the only way to God and consider other people's "Gods" just teachers. Christians think they have "the only son of God, and only way to salvation", Jews think they are the "one and only chosen people of God", Muslims think Islam will be the only religion of the whole world, etc,etc. So we all insult each other. Buddhists try not to think

It is when you see that all the religions of the world - at the core - are the same and don't oppose each other that you are at the beginning of understanding any of them.

And, yes, you are right - we are too selfish. The Dalai Lama summed it up best when he said "My religion is Kindness". What a nice short piece of scripture we can all agree on and follow, that all the religions teach. That "religion" will take us to God, with or without any teacher.

As far as Jesus goes, we only need to love him. Do we need a reason? Would you stop loving him if he weren't the only son of God? Would he then not be special enough? Would you not love him if he hadn't been crucified or been raised from the dead according to scripture? Would you stop loving him or his teachings if he were "just" a teacher? Let's not be blind to our need to follow who we perceive as "the most special, the highest, the best,the most enlightened". And the last question - How did so many Jewish people back then recognized him as good as God, and trusted his teachings if not with their hearts? This inner knowing beyond reason, beliefs, tradition or emotion, we all have? That place in us where we are not separate from God.

God bless you, and thank you for my lecture Hope you don't take any of this as attacking you or your faithfulness. I think for many good people like you are there is an issue between what faith means in relationship to genuine spiritual inquiry. So I thought I'd throw some questions your way.

Asiaprod

kelly1 wrote: »

As regards Jesus telling us to follow our hearts, I would dispute this. Our hearts are not a reliable compass and in fact Jesus said that sin comes from the heart. Why is there so much strife in the world today if we are capable of guiding ourselves to the truth? What we're missing is trust in God. We're too selfish.

You are raising great questions Kelly1.
The above really caught my attention.
In Buddhism, the heart is the seat of all, probably our equivilent to the Christian concept of the Soul. The whole point of Buddhism, is to work on making the heart pure. IMO, the reference you quoted attributed to Jesus only serves to further strengthen this fact. I interpret that quote as basically saying that in order to lead fullfilling and proper lives, one needs to be aware that the key is to work on the Heart. If the heart is not pure, sins, lies, call them what you like, become our normal individual operating environment. Fix the heart, you fix your environment.

Again from Buddhism, you have a choice, you can be influenced or controlled by your environment, or you can be smart and reverse the process, effectivly influencing and controlling ones own environment. As opposed to most of the other major religions, Buddhists are charged with fixing themselves, and not, to off-loading responsibility or seeking intersession to/from external deities.

Buddhism is a self-taught course; pain and suffering applies to;)

In answer to the question you pose.
If every one was to fix their own heart and environment, if every religion was to accept that every individual already has the tools at their disposal, and the potential within themselves, to lead good productive lives, we might then, have the potential to create total world peace.

Bear in mind Kelly1, though the roads we travel may appear to differ, they may well all lead to the same destination. Membership to any one exclusive club is not a guarantee of a safe or succssesful journey.

Thanks:), a good question, an opportunity for me to learn.

philologos

Asiaprod wrote: »

The above really caught my attention.
In Buddhism, the heart is the seat of all, probably our equivilent to the Christian concept of the Soul. The whole point of Buddhism, is to work on making the heart pure. IMO, the reference you quoted attributed to Jesus only serves to further strengthen this fact. I interpret that quote as basically saying that in order to lead fullfilling and proper lives, one needs to be aware that the key is to work on the Heart. If the heart is not pure, sins, lies, call them what you like, become our normal individual operating environment. Fix the heart, you fix your environment.

Perfect Asiaprod. I'd say that Christianity is indeed about cleansing the heart and through Christ this is to be done. Note the Beatitudes. A heart which has not been cleansed however leads to sinful deeds. Prayer helps restrain us from sinful deeds along with worship. By logically reasoning with this view, prayer and worship are the means by which we cleanse ourselves through Jesus Christ, accepting Him into our lives.

Matthew 5:8 wrote:

Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God.

Archeron

Asiaprod wrote: »

If every one was to fix their own heart and environment, if every religion was to accept that every individual already has the tools at their disposal, and the potential within themselves, to lead good productive lives, we might then, have the potential to create total world peace.

To fix ones own heart is great, but what if the heart that needs fixing is that of someones else? If the heart of one who affects your life quite seriously is dark, does it not through Human Nature cause resentment and bad feeling? It is those thoughts that I struggle with.
I dont wish to have nasty thoughts, but I feel that I am not able to control it, and to a point that the person deserves it. I imagine that these are, at the end of the day, selfish thoughts, but I dont know how to deal with them.
Thats probably why I should spend more time studying such subjects though I suppose. :rolleyes:

philologos

I know this might seem ridiculous. However, I will say it. Since I took the word of Christ and read it fully, seeking to apply it somewhat to the way I live, I found that there was a level of change in relation to these things. Personally, I used to have a terrible habit of swearing, this has now pacified, among the way I think and in the things I say (although I still slip in these departments).

bogwalrus

Life is not simple. Us humans cant conceive the reason for existence. But what we can conceive is the reasons why we should exist, and these reasons should be obvious,but social degredation makes it not obvious. If Dispose of your social dogmas and really open yourself to the world you will discover something special. It is that true love and compassion is out there and though very hard to find it is worth all the hardships of searching for.............

Asiaprod

Archeron wrote: »

To fix ones own heart is great, but what if the heart that needs fixing is that of someones else? If the heart of one who affects your life quite seriously is dark, does it not through Human Nature cause resentment and bad feeling?

Yes it does, very much so.
The solution, is to deal with that person through a heart filled with compassion and love. One can only be hurt if one lets oneself be hurt. And we humans just love to hurt ourselves. It is a survival trait, fear the worst and we are ready to deal with it. This is bull ****. We end up creating our own worst situations...by choice. People always respond to emotions like care, love, concern etc. What we see in these people is an external indication of the turmoil within.
Forget the external.
To treat this inner turmoil, we need to ignore the external signs and try to drill deep into the real causes. This brings us into a danger zone where our own emotions can turn against us and themselves can become a cause of more unhappiness for us. This is really bad unhappiness because we are creating it as a form of defense or shield. And we are controlling it.
A compassionate heart, acting with love for a person, will cut through this mess. Your own inner strength and resolve will become the driving force for change in and of itself, and one only needs to stay true ones own resolve to win. Gosh, this sounds like a lecture and it was not meant to be. In a nut shell, if you cannot find the belief in yourself that you can fix this situation, then you are correct, you cannot. If you stubbornly persist, with a heart filled with compassion and love, you cannot fail. It is impossible to fail.;) Fix your own heart first. Until you do this you really cannot help someone else to fix their own one. It all starts and ends with you. This problem is your environment. Fix your heart, you can then change your environment. Buddhism is gentle and compassionate, it is also hard and sever. I cannot remember the nuber of times I have cursed myself for taking this path. It is painful, But it always works, and I will never leave it.

Thats probably why I should spend more time studying such subjects though I suppose. :rolleyes:

Cool, half the battle is admitting to ourselves. I would urge you to study how to develop a heart filled with compassion and love. This one principle lies at the heart of the teachings of just about every religion. Highly unlikely that they all got it wrong:)

maitri

Asiaprod wrote: »

In a nut shell, if you cannot find the belief in yourself that you can fix this situation, then you are correct, you cannot.

The weird thing in my life is that very often when I am in a difficult situation and I try and try and try to fix it it doesn't work at all. Then at last I give up struggeling thinking "ok I can't fix this, I give it up", and then to my big surprise the problem suddenly is solved by itself.

For me "fixing" something very very often involves giving up trying to change things, and I don't know why.

Asiaprod

maitri wrote: »

For me "fixing" something very very often involves giving up trying to change things, and I don't know why.

Because Buddhism requires total surrender of the ego. You did your best and you learned what you were meant to learn from the situation. Once you had learned the lesson, you no longer required the situation, so it resolved itself. But only because you had learned the lesson, As I said before, Buddhism is gentle and compassionate, it is also hard and sever. We must kill our own ego, only through this path can things turn out right. Any time we have problems we normally deal with them from the "I" perspective. The key to success is to also look at them through the "You" perspective. Only when we can see the situation from the other persons perspective can we effect change

kelly1

MeditationMom wrote: »

Kelly1, could you please point me to the place in the Bible where Jesus himself says he is the "only" - or only begotten - son of God, the "only" way of salvation, and that sin comes from the heart?

Hello again A few quotes:-

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son;

John 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Matthew 15:19 For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.

MeditationMom wrote: »

Heart and emotion are the same word in many languages, though, and easily confused. With "heart" I mean that which can go beyond reason or emotion from an inner place of knowing that is one with God. Even to the point of letting yourself be crucified.

I'm not really sure what Jesus meant when He said "heart". I presume it would imply love though and in particular our selfish love of sin.

MeditationMom wrote: »

To challenge you further since that is what we like to do here for fun - How sure are you Jesus said all of the above, and in precisely those words, meaning exactly what you think they mean? How can you be sure you actually understand what he meant with anything he is reported to have said, written down hundreds of years later?

The new testament was written by contemporaries of Jesus so it wasn't hundreds of years later. Out of faith in Jesus Christ, I believe that He instituted a Church for the teaching of the truth and the administration of the sacraments. I belive that God hasn't left us wandering in the wilderness so to speak. He has given us a Church to teach the absolute truth. If God hadn't revealed the truth, what kind of God would He be? We can't do His will if we don't know what He wants.

MeditationMom wrote: »

What within YOU can tell truth from lies, or divinely inspired scripture by later saints, from church propaganda? Faith is good, but not being able to differentiate truth from lies would not, and got Jesus crucified in the first place, by the faithful of his day.

As Jesus said, He is the way the truth and the life and I believe He did not abandon us without a guide. As the bible says in 1 Timothy 3:15, the Church in the pillar and foundation of the truth (and not the bible as many believe). Jesus also said that the the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into truth via the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:26) and that the Church would never be destroyed by the enemies of God (Mt 16:18).

MeditationMom wrote: »

I don't mean to say "don't have trust in God". Have trust in God, completely, but know that you do not know what God means, and cannot know, even after Jesus tells you in so many words, until you yourself enter the kingdom of God within. This is the birthright of all human beings on this earth, not just the "lucky" ones being born into a Christian religion.

True nobody understand God fully because God is infinite and we are finite. But Jesus did reveal all we need to know about God in this life. The Kingdom of God is only within to the extent that God's grace is within and this grace comes from baptism.

MeditationMom wrote: »

As far as I remember Jesus said we are all children of God, just like him.

I don't think Jesus ever equated Himself with us. For instance He said that "Before Abraham was, I am" meaning that He was never created. He is like us in His humanity but not in His divinity.

MeditationMom wrote: »

He said we have to become like little children (the same idea in Buddhism of beginner's mind) to reach the "kingdom within". Children are full of trust, love, faith, innocence, joy - for no reason, no scriptures, nor religions to trust, nor have faith in. It is a quality they have which we also need to have. It does not depend on any religion. Therefore I would say - don't always trust religions, but trust God.

I agree, there are countless false religions but God has established one true religion but few can accept this. We need to trust God's plan for the world like children.

MeditationMom wrote: »

All religions have the same problem. They think they are the only way to God and consider other people's "Gods" just teachers. Christians think they have "the only son of God, and only way to salvation", Jews think they are the "one and only chosen people of God", Muslims think Islam will be the only religion of the whole world, etc,etc. So we all insult each other. Buddhists try not to think

If each religion teaches different and conflicting things, it's natural to ask, which if any is true. They can't all be true. I believe that God has in fact established one religion on earth while the others are man-made. Only one can be true because of the contradiction. Without a true religion, God would have effectively abandoned us in a maze.

MeditationMom wrote: »

It is when you see that all the religions of the world - at the core - are the same and don't oppose each other that you are at the beginning of understanding any of them.

Sorry, this has no basis in reality. Christianity teaches one life followed by judgement by God. Buddhism teaches reincarnation and is agnostic. The two have little in common.

MeditationMom wrote: »

As far as Jesus goes, we only need to love him. Do we need a reason? Would you stop loving him if he weren't the only son of God? Would he then not be special enough? Would you not love him if he hadn't been crucified or been raised from the dead according to scripture? Would you stop loving him or his teachings if he were "just" a teacher? Let's not be blind to our need to follow who we perceive as "the most special, the highest, the best,the most enlightened". And the last question - How did so many Jewish people back then recognized him as good as God, and trusted his teachings if not with their hearts? This inner knowing beyond reason, beliefs, tradition or emotion, we all have? That place in us where we are not separate from God.

What you're saying sounds good, but it's too vague for my liking, sorry. God's truth has been revlealed to all of us and the truth is that sin is real and that Jesus paid the ransom for our sake in the most loving act that has ever happened.

It's late and I'm not really firing on all cylinders so my responses are not terribly well thought out but there you go.

God bless,
Noel.

MeditationMom

Such a dilemma - how not to hate, resent, dislike... the people who deserve it.

Here is one thing that can help, when all teachings fail us - this quote:

"Hating someone is like taking strong poison every morning, assuming it will hurt the other."

As we love or hate the other, we hurt or heal ourselves. Compassion for the undeserving improves our own ability to love. That is what our enemies are here for. Until we become like the sun which shines on everyone, deserving or not, and like God, who loves everyone, deserving or not, we will suffer.

Easier said than done when faced with violence, abuse, stupidity and indifference, if for example, someone kills or molests our child, or tries to beat us to death, or even "just" burns our house down. Yet, it is the only way out of suffering.

As they say in AA - pain, even severe pain, in life is unavoidable, suffering on the other hand, is optional.

bogwalrus

kelly1 wrote: »

I agree, there are countless false religions but God has established one true religion but few can accept this. We need to trust God's plan for the world like children.

People follow religeons like children but do not pursue the truth like adults.

I have no doubt in my mind that there will never be a synthesis between two conflicting philosophies of life such as christianity and buddhism but what i do see is a possible agreement on both sides that these are issues for the mind not the matter and should be kept clear of the physical functions and causalness of the world we live in.

Jesus did not come to earth to tell us the way to live. He was showing us a path to take which we had to choose. The decision was always on the person to heed the advice and do what felt to be right/good. How then does man who is the likeness of god not choose to go the right path? this world we live in is neither test nor punishment for the future or the past. We are not choosing to be good to be rewarded, this is not altruistic. And we feel pain not because we failed god in the past but becuase we need it to live.

God created man. Man can be said to be the likeness of god but this should not be taken literally. God did not establish christianity like you say, Man did. Jesus was man, the son of god. We are all gods children so we are no difference from jesus the son of god.

One thing i have always found is that the bible likes to complicate things through simplicity. If the bible truly was the word of god and was the embodyment of his will it would not have been written the way it was. and most definitely not written by biased man as man is the creator of suffering.

MeditationMom

kelly1 - thank you for the quotes. Good to know.

All your responses to all my other points are based on Christian scripture and faith in that scripture. It is not something one can really argue against. It is like a wife saying her husband is the only one to love on the planet and here are the reasons why. Who would want to talk her out of it, and for what?

As far as the original post by Archeron is concerned, though - unlike for you, Christian scripture and church combined - is not helping him at all. But, as you put it, God did not forget Archeron. Just like all roads lead to Rome, even when they go in opposite directions - all spiritual teachings, even when they seem to contradict each other, lead to God. To get to the center - God - you can come from many directions. The only way - is the way of compassion and Jesus was indeed pure compassion. In that sense it is true - "he" - as the embodiment of pure compassion - is the only way to God/the Father/which in Buddhism is more abstractly called Enlightenment or Nirvana. It is the same "thing".

Buddhism, or any other religion, is a wonderful place for Archeron to explore spiritual matters further, and actually gain a deeper understanding of his original religious upbringing. He is a truth seeker, unlike you, who are a believer. It is two different ways - opposite - but the same.

philologos

I don't believe all religions lead to God. However it is my choice to commit myself to Christ. However there are core truths in most of the worlds religions such as the Golden Rule. However the entire truth (in my belief) is to be found in Christianity.

As for the state of the heart. It is through being trained in a certain way that it will become pure. This in Christian terms is through the Eucharist, worship, and being in the mere presence of Jesus and the Father. I think this is something most Christians would agree with.

I believe Archeron hasn't explored the Christian road fully, and I fully encourage him to read the word of Jesus Christ and the words of the prophets in the Bible. The practical use of the Bible as a spiritual guide is impressive. It was the best thing I've ever done.

MeditationMom wrote:

As far as the original post by Archeron is concerned, though - unlike for you, Christian scripture and church combined - is not helping him at all.

This is the problem. He has not really consulted Christian scripture if you look to his original post.

Archeron wrote:

I have tried to read the bible, but....well.......

When faith is necessary, but the religion in which you search is apparently "questionable", in what direction does one travel?

I believe the reason why he finds the Christian faith questionable as he has not looked at it conclusively.

bogwalrus

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe the reason why he finds the Christian faith questionable as he has not looked at it conclusively.

The reason why he/she looks at the Christian faith as being questionable is because in order for you to be a true christian you have to take alot of things for granted that dont necessarily make any sense scientifically and more and more so have no relation to workings in the real world. Its idea of spirituality is just an image people hold in their heads but not actually understood and thought upon which i feel is a necessity. I have been to mass many times and seen the same numbers of people not pay attention and to just be there for the fact that at least they are there. I would say these people are not true christians. You show qualities of someone who truly does believe in their faith, you seem to have researched it and understand it as fact. You are indeed a true christian but you are in a minority when it comes down to facts, for the simple reason that christianity is just too out there to believe in and in order to believe in it you have to take so much for granted that does not relate to workings in the real world which we exist in. If christianity was the true religion of the world then alot more people would believe in it and alot less people would be leaving it. Its a fact and no you cant say it is because these people havent researched into it enough or they just dont understand or something else. People are smart and know what is true and what is false. There are so many people who are loving, considerate etc who are not religious at all because there is no point to it. It does nothing for people who wish to truly live.

In my local cathedral i look around and i come to the conclusion that maybe 5 people are true christians like yourself. This is a church of maybe 300.

People believe in a god and society shows them a good doing god who loves them. People will accept this and not questions this. And in not questioning this people become what is so obviosuly seen in our society-materialistic, violent,depressed and so on. Christianity can say to a lost sheep-come back because you have not researched all the facts yet or it can say open your eyes, look at the world, look at the true beauty of being alive, question humanity, question existence, question god and religions and if you find that you enjoy life more without a religion, so be it. Not just no your wrong and im right.

philologos

bogwalrus wrote:

The reason why he/she looks at the Christian faith as being questionable is because in order for you to be a true christian you have to take alot of things for granted that dont necessarily make any sense scientifically and more and more so have no relation to workings in the real world

Consult Miracles - C.S Lewis, brilliant book on this topic, I'm just more than half way through. Infact you can get all his Christian philosophy works in one volume here.

bogwalrus wrote:

People believe in a god and society shows them a good doing god who loves them. People will accept this and not questions this. And in not questioning this people become what is so obviosuly seen in our society-materialistic, violent,depressed and so on.

I don't quite think depression and violence comes from not questioning Christianity, but I do agree with the sentiments that you have. I used to be a passive Christian like the ones you describe in this Cathedral. I then decided to see what this Christianity thing was all about, started reading the Bible and made it to the end, then consulted other theological sources. Educated Christianity is also very much possible.

bogwalrus wrote:

Christianity can say to a lost sheep-come back because you have not researched all the facts yet or it can say open your eyes, look at the world, look at the true beauty of being alive, question humanity, question existence, question god and religions and if you find that you enjoy life more without a religion, so be it. Not just no your wrong and im right.

You can believe what ever you want. I'm not intending to force Christian theology on you. I however understand that only through Jesus Christ can people reform their lives as much as I did when I truly got into it. It's not just a myth or a joke as people often portrays it, I feel as if I'm living proof of it. I still have to push myself to go a certain step more, all the time I learn about God. I'm just as bad, and as sinful as the rest of mankind, however there is an option available to lift the slavery of sin. That is faith through Jesus.

I don't deny that there are many many characteristics which are positive in other religions, but you can only get so far. Through Christianity we get the whole way. I've mentioned things like the Golden Rule, among others which are common to the Christian faith, and I don't intend to criticise other peoples way of life, however I would like them to come to Christianity, I cannot deny that.

DublinWriter

MeditationMom wrote: »

In that sense it is true - "he" - as the embodiment of pure compassion - is the only way to God/the Father/which in Buddhism is more abstractly called Enlightenment or Nirvana. It is the same "thing".

I didn't think us Buddhists believed in an overarching monotheistic god?

The Mad Hatter

DublinWriter wrote: »

I didn't think us Buddhists believed in an overarching monotheistic god?

I think that depends on the Buddhist.

Asiaprod

Interesting questions being raised. It might be a nice idea for our welcomed guests to touch on the history of the Buddha to gain some perspective of the Buddhist world.

The Buddha was born 500 years before Christ, in what is now Nepal. His father was a king, his mother was a queen, and his father wanted him to take over the family business (the kingdom) when he got older. The kind of world the Buddha was born into was magical. Everything seemed to be alive. The trees, mountains, lakes, and sky were living and breathing with a variety of gods in charge. If you needed rain you asked one god, if you needed it to stop raining you asked another. The priests of India did all the religious work, and got paid for it.

At the age of 29, the Buddha stopped praying to the gods to end his suffering and the suffering of others. He left his family and friends, went to the edge of the forest, took off all his clothes and jewelry, covered his naked body with rags of cloth, cut off his hair and started to meditate. He became a mendicant, and It took him six years of hard work and much suffering, but in the end he was able to stop his suffering forever (Nirvana) and help others stop their suffering as well.

The Buddha did not believe in a God, the One God of the desert, the God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims, Monotheism was a foreign concept to the Buddha, his world was filled with many gods. The creator god Brahma being the most important one. The Buddha never left India. He walked from village to village and never in his entire lifetime went any further than 200 miles from his birthplace. In his entire teaching there is not even one reference that suggest how to find God or worship the god's of India, although the Buddha himself was a theist, and his teachings are non-theistic. The Buddha was more concerned with the human condition: Birth, Sickness, Old age, and Death.

The Buddhist path is about coming to a place of acceptance with these painful aspects of life, and not suffering through them. The Buddha was a human being who found his perfection in Nirvana. Because of his Nirvana, the Buddha is considered to be perfectly moral, perfectly ethical, and to have ended his suffering forever. Many Buddhists do believe in God, and many don’t believe in God; a lot of Buddhists just don’t know. All three points of view are acceptable if you’re Buddhist because suffering is more important than God in Buddhism.

When the Buddha was asked how the world started, he kept silent. In Buddhism we don’t have a first cause, instead we have a never ending circle of birth and death. In this world there are many beginnings and ends. The model of life used in Buddhism has no starting place; it just keeps going and going. If you’re a Buddhist you can believe God was the first cause, it really doesn't go against the teachings of the Buddha, his focus was on suffering. You can also believe science has the answer, such as the big bang theory, etc. Some Buddhist’s don’t even care how it all started. Knowing how the world started is not going to end your suffering, it’s just going to give you more to think about. God is not what Buddhism is about, suffering is. If you want to believe in God, as some Buddhists do, fine. But, Buddhist's don't believe God can end suffering. Only the teaching's of the Buddha can help us end suffering through wisdom and the activity of compassion.

I am a Buddhist that does not believe in a God. I believe that Jesus, if he did exist, was an enlightened teacher. He brought a clear and simple message, but the individuals of the time, as any good story tellers would, embellished the character and not the teachings. They made it more appealing by promising rewards or an escape, over looking the fact that personal suffering is the way to grow. IMO, it is not about asking an external entity to save us from the sufferings of life. I believe in general that we have to suffer in order to gain a clearer perspective, and in this way we save ourselves in this life and afford ourselves a better reincarnation/rebirth that enables us to help others attain the same. I have no idea where it all will end up and I do not not really care. I will decide when I get there. Buddhism is about the here and now and what I can do to help others suffering.

My thanks to Kusala Bhikshu, a very enlightened teacher from whom much of this dialogue is drawn.

18AD

I heard a slightly different/expanded version of the story myself.

In his early life Buddha was sheltered from all suffering. This was intended to help him and keep him in good spirits all the time. But one day he got away from the palace and noticed that there were old people and sick people around him that were suffering and this concerned him.
So after much thought he decided to leave behind the indulgence of his rich life and pursue that of a beggar. He abstained from food and shelter and inevitably became ill.
Realising then that over-indulgence and abstention were not the correct path to happiness he devised the idea of the middle path.

All the best.
AD.

Asiaprod

18AD wrote: »

I heard a slightly different/expanded version of the story myself.

Your account is the same:) I gave the abridged version as I was focusing on the God and Buddhism issue. In fact the original story is even worse. So much did the Buddha`s father wish to protect him that the Buddha was never allowed to leave the palace without first obtaining the consent of the king. Before the Buddha could journey forth, the king would send out his men to clear away the sick and unclean to ensure that the boy prince only saw joy and prosperity where ever he went. It was only when the Buddha dressed himself as a beggar and went out without the telling the king that for the fist time he saw the real suffering of the people which was the driving force for him to renounce his position, his wife and family, and devote his life to finding a release to the sufferings of life. The story goes on to say how he tried many of the practices, before becoming very ill. He then meditated on the problem on his own for many years before finally attaining enlightenment.

philologos

What sources do you use in looking towards the life of the Buddha?

MeditationMom

by DublinWriter -

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeditationMom View Post
In that sense it is true - "he" - as the embodiment of pure compassion - is the only way to God/the Father/which in Buddhism is more abstractly called Enlightenment or Nirvana. It is the same "thing".

by DublinWriter - I didn't think us Buddhists believed in an overarching monotheistic god?

I didn't think so either

Maybe I need to say what I mean differently - Buddhists believe in an overarching concept of compassion and kindness as the only path out of suffering; the only path to liberation. It is wrong really to call it a belief. It is more like a "scientific" law or rule, as in "The Golden Rule". Maybe Buddha wouldn't even say it is the only path - I don't know.

In Buddhists terms, Jesus was ego-less to the point of having compassion even for the very people who crucified him. This absence of his ego was his divine/enlightened presence. Only by this - this sacrifice of self, or giving up of his own will as in "thy will be done" - can we "go home to the father" (Christian term) - reach Nirvana (Buddhist term) - even though truly, we were never separated in the first place. This separation was just an illusion. Disillusionment is the painful path of the spiritual adventurer before freedom can come, with the last illusion being, that our life depends on our bodies.

Jesus' and Buddhas teachings are so similar in this regard - although with very different language used - that many think Jesus studied in the East during his "lost years".

Like Asiaprod said, to Buddhists - and Muslims - Jesus was a teacher, just like Buddha and Mohammed. Of course each religion feels their teacher is the best, or in extreme cases "the only one", or in some way closer to God or the truth than others. It's human nature. The closer to the truth, or God, we move - the more we realize there is nothing but God or truth and that includes all people, all religions, all things and they are in divine harmony and support of each other.