Shell To Sea

big b

Corrib is a marginal field. An offshore platform is not economically viable.

Shell, like most oil companies, have experience of laying pipelines. These tend not to explode & kill everyone within several miles. Bad for the share price when sh*t like that happens.

The locals fears have been compounded by outsiders with a seperate agenda.

Shell spent the money developing the field when no-one else would, including Enterprise. They're entitled to the profit from it. The fact the goverment handed it over with such generous breaks is hardly their fault.

The whole shell to sea campaign stinks, to me, of "what can we get out of them " with more than a touch of anti-globalisation violence thrown in.

cson

Just out of interest, how many jobs will the new terminal provide?

Overheal

What pro's are there to the project? Jobs? Economic Growth? Wealth? Space Program? Mmmmm.....Irish Space Monkey.........

big b

cson wrote: »

Just out of interest, how many jobs will the new terminal provide?

They reckon between 50 and 100.

A lot of jobs for the area. Service industries are bound to benefit to some degree too.

Also, getting your foot in the door there will open up a lot of opportunities with similar plants worldwide.

prendy

i can see alot of people disagree with the protestors.
im of the opinion that your entitled to protest but what i dont understand is what these people do for a living....are they on the dole?how can they stand there all day?
i seen a picture of the local school principle protesting when she should have been in school...surely a breech of contract.
in any case my point is:the dole is there to facilitate those actively looking for work....these people arnt looking for work IMO. cut their dole and see how long the protests last. maybe im wrong.rant over!

cornbb

I, like a lot of people, don't like arrogant, loud, propogandist crusties. But these people are fighting for a good cause. I agree that development needs to happen, but the manner in which it is happening is shocking, there is very little regard for either the local people or to ensure that locals and/or the country at large will benefit financially from the project. Just like the situation with the US Military in Shannon, the government is willing to ignore Irish protests and lick the arse of a rich and powerful foreign organisation. Its cowardice. The fact that Gardai have baton charged these protestors and locals have been imprisoned merely for protesting is very shameful when it is viewed in the context of everything else which is wrong with this country (violence on the streets, people getting suspended sentances for murder, etc.)

kevmy

cornbb wrote: »

But these people are fighting for a good cause.

Thats questionable. Their views certainly aren't shared by the majority in Mayo or in the region. If you want proof of that look at Jerry Cowley's vote in the last 2 elections. It went down massively after he took up the cause despite the fact that most people liked him personally. He went from poll topper to losing his seat. If he had even 50% support in Erris region he would have comfortably held on. This campaign has at this stage very little support locally where people have all the information on the issue and have been living with it for years.
Shell were initially bullying and disrespectful to local opinion but having seen the level of opposition have talked to locals, made the terminal more environmentally friendly, rerouted the pipeline and downed the pressure. This satisfied most local concerns.

cornbb wrote: »

The fact that Gardai have baton charged these protestors and locals have been imprisoned merely for protesting is very shameful when it is viewed in the context of everything else which is wrong with this country (violence on the streets)

You realise the Gardaí are not just randomly baton charging people don't you? The protesters have attempted on numerous occasions to break into the Shell construction to stop the legal work being carried out and cause damage. Infact they succeeded on one occasion. They have attempted to run over Gardaí in a car. They have broken windows of trucks approaching the site. They have threatened drivers and construction workers trying to go about there daily business. They have slashed the tyres on some trucks. They have refused to move off the road when repeatedly warned to do so.
All these break the law of the land. The Irish police force then do their job and attempt to stop this mob from causing damage, injury or threat to the average citizens and their property. The Gardaí are doing their job preventing a hooligan element in cause "violence on our streets" as you put it.

Just because people are better educated and better spoke and "have a cause" doesn't make them any better than the scumbags who started the riots up in Dublin a couple of years ago.

Whatever your thoughts on the (poor) deal the government done with Shell or the right to protest or Shell initial arrogance IMO you cannot support a campaign which at stage is just a local campaign of ~100 people with a large hooligan outside element who will not prevent anything from being done and are only costing the taxpayers millions by the requirement of a Gardaí force every day. People are giving out about the GPA taking taxpayers money these days but at €100,000 a day these guys have cost us ~€10 million at this stage.

eroo

kbannon wrote: »

So is it factually incorrect?

It sure is!
Indymedia=Guttermedia

OR

Indymedia=BSmedia

pirelli

slinky wrote: »

Why aren't the gardai in my town to uphold "law and order"? We've had a murder, stabbings, a number of armed robberies not to mention the weekly drudge of "low-level" crime (this is a rural town). There aren't enough gardai on the beat where real crime is taking place but then it's always easier uphold "law and order" by bashing a few protestors...perhaps we better get digging and pray for oil!

The problem isn't with bringing gas ashore it's how it's brought ashore: the Rossport 5 want it refined at sea.

My major problem with this project is this: RAY BURKE agreed a deal with Shell that gave the Irish people no royalties, not a RED CENT. This is our natural resource not Shell's, they made a 26billion profit - I think they'd survive paying a decent tax. They must be having a laugh in their boardroom - pay no royalties, maximize profits and hand over 150 grand to the local gaa club:mad:

Thats would be twice our GDP when Ray Burke handed over national resource in some gutteral deal of corruption and hasnt he has been convicted of fraud as an adult and has he not the resources to defend himself.Back to jail with him after a proper summons is served and a just and fair hearing is heard without prejudice.

ILTS

2 stroke wrote: »

Maybe they won't feel my €3000, but at least I didn't support the wrong side with my €3000. If everybody in this country switched suppliers shell would see that the protest had public suport, they're used to protesters hanging out of trees.

You do realise that the Shell garages in Ireland aren't owned by Shell don't you? They were bought by a company called Topaz a few years ago so you're not really hitting Shell in the pocket at all.

Just heard on the news that Shell have now gotten approval on their Environmental Protection Agency licence to go ahead with the terminal in Mayo. Shell to sea won't be happy.

Dinxminx

I was working as a relief receptionist in the Shell Headquarters the summer that all of this started going on and the amount of abuse I got hurled at me over the phone was incredible!!! This was about two/three years ago, I was only trying to make a bit of money for myself and I thought it was so rude for some of those people to call me and call me a "f*cking b*tch with no morals" or "a stupid wh*re" or a "f*cking c*nt" just because the company I worked for at the time (I didn't even really work for Shell, I worked for a facilities management company) had chosen to send me to work there.

When men (they were always men) rang up roaring down the phone at me I just wanted to ask them if they had any daughters trying to earn some money on the side for the summer, and if so what would they think if someone verbally abused their daughters the way they were yelling at me?

I did NOT get paid enough for that sh*t...

2 stroke

ILTS wrote: »

You do realise that the Shell garages in Ireland aren't owned by Shell don't you? They were bought by a company called Topaz a few years ago so you're not really hitting Shell in the pocket at all.

I used to fill up regularly at a shell depot which is still there, I also used order my heating oil from there.

Topaz is a shell licensee. I see this as little more than a rebranding excercise.

You Suck!

Ray burke, enough said.......Magill covered this long before shell to sea came into existance, and this shíts been goin down a lot longer since Oil and Gas laws and taxs were changed in the 70's and 80's. I have no problems providing incentive to companys to exploit these resources, it's the exploitation of Irish citizens I take issue with. We're giving our resources away at a time when these resources are realising their best value. It's bullshít, and you don't need some pious crusty idiot to tell you so......

kevmy

You Suck! wrote: »

I have no problems providing incentive to companys to exploit these resources, it's the exploitation of Irish citizens I take issue with. We're giving our resources away at a time when these resources are realising their best value. It's bullshít, and you don't need some pious crusty idiot to tell you so......

Of course it is a sh1te deal and the government should learn a lesson from this of "don't give away your resources easily". However I don't support this scaremongering and (at his stage) utterly idiotic campaign.

panda100

eroo wrote: »

The world is not perfect.If we could have enough Gardai in every town and city then we would put them there but we just do not need a load of Gardai in rural areas where there is very little crime.If they were sent into your area then they would have to be sent in to EVERY area.
Also,the Gardai are no different to any other police force,they cannot be everywhere!

What annoys me about the protesters is there claim that the Gardai are 'Shells Police Force'.They are not,they are simply protecting the local populus and workers(who are also civilians!) from being attacked.They are stopping public roads being blocked and....they are stopping the protesters breaking the law by trespassing!
..

While Ive never been to protests in Rossport(there a bit too rough for me) I have been to many protests in Dublin ,shannon and Limerick in the last few years. The amount of gardai presence at these protests always astounds me. Only two weks ago I went to a peacful protest with 6 other people outside the Nigerian embassy just of leeson street. All we wanted to do was raise a bit of awarness and hand a letter into the embassy. While we were there three gardai were stationed beside us with two patrol cars going by every five minutes.This was on the same day that two murders had been comitted in the city. When push comes to shove the goverment and the gardai are more intrested in protecting their financial intrests wether be that Shell or corrupt African states then maintaining the 'peace ' of the land.

Also the proteters are not trespassing.The protests are held on a main public road,as far as Im aware.

cson wrote: »

Just out of interest, how many jobs will the new terminal provide?

Really you think Jobs are more important than the protection of our natural environment and the saftey of the people of Rossport?

Dinxminx wrote: »

I was working as a relief receptionist in the Shell Headquarters the summer that all of this started going on and the amount of abuse I got hurled at me over the phone was incredible!!! This was about two/three years ago, I was only trying to make a bit of money for myself and I thought it was so rude for some of those people to call me and call me a "f*cking b*tch with no morals" or "a stupid wh*re" or a "f*cking c*nt" just because the company I worked for at the time (I didn't even really work for Shell, I worked for a facilities management company) had chosen to send me to work there.

When men (they were always men) rang up roaring down the phone at me I just wanted to ask them if they had any daughters trying to earn some money on the side for the summer, and if so what would they think if someone verbally abused their daughters the way they were yelling at me?

I did NOT get paid enough for that sh*t...

There is no doubt that the shell to sea campaign has been hijacked by rouge aggressive outside parties. I competly and fully support the people of Rossports plight and agree that Shell should move to sea.However the anti shell camapigners are seriosuly going to have to regroup and think of their next strategic move as the violent clashes in Bellanaboy are not helping their cause.I have no doubt that some of the violence is being instigated by the gardia.But like Dinxminx having been on the recieving end of agressive shell to sea protesters myself I am sure that many protesters provoked gardia attack.

Zzippy

Eamon Ryan, who is now the minister responsible, changed the law recently so that future finds of oil/gas will have higher rates of tax (40%) charged to the companies exploiting them, instead of the current 25%.
http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0801/exploration.html

We can't do anything about previous government policies, but its no reason to stop current exploitation of a viable gas field. The terminal, etc have all been through the planning process and were approved with changes.

If a majority of people were against the development, the last election results would have reflected it. They didn't. It showed the vast majority of people in Mayo didn't agree with the Shell to Sea protesters.

Its alright to have a minority view, and express that view, as long as you do it peacefully and within the law. Thats democracy. If you go outside the law to express your view, your campaign is discredited. Thats whats happened in Mayo.

Blocking public roads is illegal.
Vandalism of property is illegal.
Intimidation of people who happen not to agree with you is illegal.
Driving a car at gardai is illegal.

You Suck!

kevmy wrote: »

Of course it is a sh1te deal and the government should learn a lesson from this of "don't give away your resources easily". However I don't support this scaremongering and (at his stage) utterly idiotic campaign.

Stupid politicians and possible corruption are as far from scaremongering you can get in this country

Just because the crustys are fúckin morons does not detract from the end result, namely us the tax payers getting fúck all as usual.....

panda100

Galwayguy99 wrote: »

Its alright to have a minority view, and express that view, as long as you do it peacefully and within the law. ].

and as long as your protest isnt in any way succesful........

TheNog

panda100 wrote: »

Only two weks ago I went to a peacful protest with 6 other people outside the Nigerian embassy just of leeson street. All we wanted to do was raise a bit of awarness and hand a letter into the embassy. While we were there three gardai were stationed beside us with two patrol cars going by every five minutes.This was on the same day that two murders had been comitted in the city. When push comes to shove the goverment and the gardai are more intrested in protecting their financial intrests wether be that Shell or corrupt African states then maintaining the 'peace ' of the land.

jeez what do u want the guards to do. They knew ur protest was going on obviously through information received but they didn't know 2 ppl were going to be murdered.

DO YOU THINK THE GUARDS CAN READ MINDS????

If a protest is organised then the guards are gonna police that protest to ensure it goes off peacefully. Don't you think that if they knew of the murders the guards would be there to stop it?

I swear if some people had brains!!!!!!!!

big b

panda100 wrote: »

. I competly and fully support the people of Rossports plight and agree that Shell should move to sea.

What plight exactly, though?

Has there been similar hysteria at the new western gas line running (broadly) from Clare to Galway? Sure, the Corrib line will be higher pressure, but the pipeline is designed with that in mind.

Shell will not build an offshore platform to process Corrib, simply because it is not financially viable to do so.

Remember, if Corrib had been a real "bonanza" field, Enterprise would've developed it years ago.

panda100

TheNog wrote: »

jeez what do u want the guards to do. They knew ur protest was going on obviously through information received but they didn't know 2 ppl were going to be murdered.

DO YOU THINK THE GUARDS CAN READ MINDS????

If a protest is organised then the guards are gonna police that protest to ensure it goes off peacefully. Don't you think that if they knew of the murders the guards would be there to stop it?

I swear if some people had brains!!!!!!!!

Two murders had been commited in Dublin city centre the night before.
Since most of the murders in Dublin are drugs related then I should say that gardai should put their time,money and resources into preventing needless deaths and arresting the REAL villans in our society. Not arresting and jailing five innocent men for protecting themselves,their families and their homes from an exploitative company like Shell who cares for nothing except for profits.

And please if gardai actually cared about protecting the peace of the land how comes Ive seen only one patrol car in the last 12 months (at four in the afternoon?!) breathilising people on the road near my house in Limerick where over a hundred people have died in the last few years.Or why do I never see gardai patrolling Limerick or Dublin city centre at late hours where assualts are commomplace.
Theres almost three gardai for every protetster up in bellanaboy.Its absolutely ludicrous. Which is more important do you think...... for hundreds of gardai to be present to move a couple of people off a road in Mayo or for only two gardai to patrol the whole north dublin city centre area on a saturday night to stop the numerous rapes/assualts/attacks that occur?
If the protests in Rossport show nothing else they completly highlight the warped priorities of our gardai.

ILTS

If the so called "peaceful" protests in Mayo weren't taking place, there would be no need for all the extra guards, and then they could be off helping out other places. It has been so long since any of the shell to sea protests have been peaceful, that they have to be there to control the violence so that none of the people up there going about their daily jobs to earn money to support their families are intimidated or hurt. There is so little employment in that area, I've even heard that some of the locals who originally protested about the terminal are now working there as they need the money.

TheNog

panda100 wrote: »

Two murders had been commited in Dublin city centre the night before.
Since most of the murders in Dublin are drugs related then I should say that gardai should put their time,money and resources into preventing needless deaths and arresting the REAL villans in our society. Not arresting and jailing five innocent men for protecting themselves,their families and their homes from an exploitative company like Shell who cares for nothing except for profits.

And please if gardai actually cared about protecting the peace of the land how comes Ive seen only one patrol car in the last 12 months (at four in the afternoon?!) breathilising people on the road near my house in Limerick where over a hundred people have died in the last few years.Or why do I never see gardai patrolling Limerick or Dublin city centre at late hours where assualts are commomplace.
Theres almost three gardai for every protetster up in bellanaboy.Its absolutely ludicrous. Which is more important do you think...... for hundreds of gardai to be present to move a couple of people off a road in Mayo or for only two gardai to patrol the whole north dublin city centre area on a saturday night to stop the numerous rapes/assualts/attacks that occur?
If the protests in Rossport show nothing else they completly highlight the warped priorities of our gardai.

I think you need a reality check or at the very least you should stop watching Eastenders and Cornation Street 'cos seem to be someone who likes to be dramatic. Here is my rebuttal

Real Villains: are real villains drug dealers/suppliers, murderers, rapists etc? Ok according to you most guards should be assigned to catching these people. That would leave a small number of gardai to enforce theft & fraud offences-there are hundreds of these offences committed each day, traffic offences - drunk drivers, dangerous drivers, speeders etc, offences against the state-such as firearms, explosives etc.

Five innocent men: were convicted in court and rightly so. By the way don't tell anyone this but it is judge who jails people, not the guards.

One patrol car in 12 months: either you don't get out much or maybe its a case of "oh i only saw one garda today in Limerick so that means there is only one garda working in all of Limerick city". Come on don't be making a fool of yourself.

why do I never see gardai patrolling Limerick or Dublin city centre at late hours where assualts are commomplace.
Theres almost three gardai for every protetster up in bellanaboy.Its absolutely ludicrous. Which is more important do you think...... for hundreds of gardai to be present to move a couple of people off a road in Mayo or for only two gardai to patrol the whole north dublin city centre area on a saturday night to stop the numerous rapes/assualts/attacks that occur? - you are OTT on this one too. I'm sure that there is more than 2 guards patrolling north inner city dublin on a saturday night, don't you?

If the protests in Rossport show nothing else they completly highlight the warped priorities of our gardai.
actually the priorities of the gardai is 1)protect life 2)protect property. and in that order too. The rossport protest must be policed by a large force due to the unknown number of people going to turn up say tomorrow or the next day. This protest has been shown to be passive aggressive where protesters have damaged property and caused obstruction on public roads. Therefore a large number of gardai are needed to ensure garda members are safe. Safety in numbers!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are going to reply to this make sure your points of view are properly thought through.

togster

Meh its the same for the phone masts and incinerators etc etc... we want change but not if its on our door step. And having read the wiki page (seriously one-sided IMo) they are not protesting the selling of the resources to shell. I could be wrong. But its hard to find an un-biased source.

lostexpectation

the majority of people here criticising shell to sea here and elsewhere never have any intelligent to add to the debate its all get a job smelly hippies. rubbish.

Corrib ‘consent' drilling errors
http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2684&Itemid=71

and then go to indymedia to see the photos of locals challenging shell and the gardai using putting themselves in the way of the work and turning out to completely right about the situation

Shell 2 Sea stop drilling on an Special Area of Conservation
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84782
Shell & RPS drilling stopped again
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84805

lostexpectation

panda100 wrote: »

There is no doubt that the shell to sea campaign has been hijacked by rouge aggressive outside parties. I competly and fully support the people of Rossports plight and agree that Shell should move to sea.However the anti shell camapigners are seriosuly going to have to regroup and think of their next strategic move as the violent clashes in Bellanaboy are not helping their cause.I have no doubt that some of the violence is being instigated by the gardia.But like Dinxminx having been on the recieving end of agressive shell to sea protesters myself I am sure that many protesters provoked gardia attack.

you are one of the most clueless protestors I ever seen panda100, I remember you said Sinn fein/IRA men were at an antiwar protest in shannon, because some stupid locals kids had turned up with balaclavas.

Chakar

kbannon wrote: »

So is it factually incorrect?

Admittedly, they would be biased. Most of their anecdotes are based on supposed Gardai "brutality".

The Gardai are allowed by law to use force when necessary to prevent obstruction of roads and interference of vehicles and other individuals.

big b

lostexpectation wrote: »

the majority of people here criticising shell to sea here and elsewhere never have any intelligent to add to the debate its all get a job smelly hippies. rubbish.

Corrib ‘consent' drilling errors
http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2684&Itemid=71

and then go to indymedia to see the photos of locals challenging shell and the gardai using putting themselves in the way of the work and turning out to completely right about the situation

Shell 2 Sea stop drilling on an Special Area of Conservation
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84782
Shell & RPS drilling stopped again
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/84805

Well, I'm glad you said "the majority", and not "all". Fair play on that one.
The articles you quote relate to bore holes for geological survey and as such are fairly minimally intrusive. They were, however, in the wrong place. That said, when the mistake was pointed out, the work stopped. I'm sure the difference in attitude is not lost on you.

lostexpectation

big b wrote: »

Well, I'm glad you said "the majority", and not "all". Fair play on that one.
The articles you quote relate to bore holes for geological survey and as such are fairly minimally intrusive. They were, however, in the wrong place. That said, when the mistake was pointed out, the work stopped. I'm sure the difference in attitude is not lost on you.

yes but people here are claiming that shell have changed attitude started listening to the community and doing things by the book, this shows they are not and protesters have to continuely keep watch and highlight the hypocrisy, and block work, block roads, clamber on machinery because shell and police really don't give a **** about justice and think they can do whatever they like whenever they like.

you would call the the actions in the above links when they challenged the drilling illegal, smelly, troublemaking, yet how else do they stop shell running roughshod over the area?

big b

Well, I don't recall me personally name-calling anyone, but anyway...

It looks like Shell were indeed drilling test holes in the wrong place. Looks like maybe whatever maps they had were inaccurate. Whether that's true or not, they were never going to be allowed to lay the pipeline in an SAC, so if they were drilling there deliberately, I'd say it was to form part of a greater picture of the geology of the area. I seriously doubt test holes would have any significant impact on the area as they'd be easily backfilled later.

Anyway, I and probably many others feel that at least some of the protestors have, for some time now, been doing more harm than good to any genuine concerns. I suspect the locals are being used as pawns in a bigger game.

Incidentally, even if the field WAS big enough to justify an offshore platform, the gas would still come ashore at pressure. Less pressure maybe, but that would probably mean less pressure-rated pipe. The field has to pay for itself.