Dublin Bus workers threaten strike

dRNk SAnTA

At the end of the day bus routes should be designed with the passengers in mind and not the bloody bus drivers.

I, for one, would vote for a party that supported firing public servents on occasions like this.

dmfod

paulm17781 wrote: »

I don't have time to write an essay, ironically I'm in work. Now, my point is I put in extra hours when needed for job satisfaction (I would rather do something well and be proud than quickly and badly). When I'm busy I will work very intensely (currently waiting on 3 suppliers, hence the free time).

In answer to your question, there are 3 women in my company (40 people) the CEO is a woman. Proportionately, women get paid more here.

I once tried to leave my job (unhappy) I got a promotion as I work hard, that kept. If I did that every time things changed, I'd be fired and rightly so. I have a good working relationship with management and that is how a work environment should be.

Do you honestly think the child workers of time gone by or the railway workers who built and died building our railways would be proud of where unionization has gone? They fought for there lives, not things like an 11km commute. They would mock modern unions for being pussies compared to what they had to go through. Modern CIE unions have no idea what those boys went through (nor do I).

The point remains that women get paid less per hour on average than men and do not work any less hard. Just because in your particular company the 3/40 women get paid more doesn't prove anything.

The reason modern unions do not have to fight for the lives of their members is because of the hard-fought battles of the past. I think the point here is that managers and employers often try to chip away at workers' pay and conditions bit by bit and unions understand that if they give way on some things it will lead to attacks on their conditions in other areas. In non-unionised areas pay and conditions are generally worse. Why do you think so many employers are anti-union? It's because they mean better pay and conditions for workers, which diminishes bosses' profits. Wages are a cost and management always have an interest in keeping costs as low as possible. It's not rocket science.

I'm glad you're happy in your job but some employers are more exploitative than others and slandering all unions just because you're happy in your job is unfair. I wonder if you'd feel the same way if you worked in Dublin Bus?

January

Jip wrote: »

Take a look in the mirror. How often for example have you walked from Tyrrelstown to Corduff ? Try it a bit more often than never and you'll find it's a lot longer than 10 minutes.

Actually, I used to do it at least once a day. It took me the best part of ten minutes depending on the weather and other factors.

paulm17781

dmfod wrote: »

The reason modern unions do not have to fight for the lives of their members is because of the hard-fought battles of the past. I think the point here is that managers and employers often try to chip away at workers' pay and conditions bit by bit and unions understand that if they give way on some things it will lead to attacks on their conditions in other areas. In non-unionised areas pay and conditions are generally worse. Why do you think so many employers are anti-union? It's because they mean better pay and conditions for workers, which diminishes bosses' profits. Wages are a cost and management always have an interest in keeping costs as low as possible. It's not rocket science.

The reason employers don't like unions is because they often cause undue problems for miniature reasons. I am not anti-union I am against workers striking over little reasons and holding their customers at ransom. I would have no issue with joining a union but thus far I have seen no need, should that change it would be nice to have the option. As I said though, good employee / staff relations are often more effective, negotiation will always be better than strike. It is worth noting in the negotiations on this issue, the labour court ruled against the drivers. Striking now is the kind of thing that makes employers anti-union.

dmfod wrote: »

I'm glad you're happy in your job but some employers are more exploitative than others and slandering all unions just because you're happy in your job is unfair. I wonder if you'd feel the same way if you worked in Dublin Bus?

I would look for other employment, the role Dublin Bus drivers play to the community is a very important one, the city needs them. When they strike, against a labour court ruling. They are taking it out on the people who depend on them, this is why the public are so against the CIE unions. There are other bus companies in Dublin now too...

Calina

Just a friendly note: any general discussion on whether unions are philosophically useful or not is really not on topic. Do remember this.

Personally I think that Dublin Bus should be moving away from driver changes mid-route as a general comment as my past experience of them is that I got to see rather too much of Parnell Square. It's not an efficient use of passenger time and the bus company should be serving my interests as a passenger, not their own interests as a bureaucracy with little or no vision for how better to serve the city.

AlekSmart

Calina sez:
"Personally I think that Dublin Bus should be moving away from driver changes mid-route as a general comment as my past experience of them is that I got to see rather too much of Parnell Square. It's not an efficient use of passenger time and the bus company should be serving my interests as a passenger, not their own interests as a bureaucracy with little or no vision for how better to serve the city."

Donning my Dublin Bus PR hat here : ) I would have to say...Calina...U the GIRL !! and yes Its all about VISION !! :eek:

There is little doubt but that one of the reasons Dublin Bus changed its "Motto" from "Changing with the City" to the far blander "Serving all of the Community" was that the company simply was NOT changing with the City at all.

The absolue refusal of the company to aggressively explore any alternative to O Connell St as virtually its only cross City axis is a major contributory factor in much of the madcap stuff being staged every day in and around An Làr.

I have in the past been treated to mumbled explanations about the City Council being unwilling to allocate space for buses etc etc.
However I`m of the belief that being the operator of the largest fleet of the largest vehicles in that City SHOULD give you a degree of clout in deciding which avenues would be most efficient for Bus operation.

However the ridgid adherence to trooping its bus fleet past Head Office several times each day continues to underline a corporate unwillingness to change with anything...including the City.

I wonder if any senior Dublin Bus planners have taken a constitutional along Parnell St in recent decades.....a huge concentration of continental style living with shops,cafe`s,and the Parnell Centre Cinema all thoroughly ignored in Public Transport terms....
Instead the company forces ever more routes and vehicles through O C St and Parnell Square in the firm belief that thats where they want to go...totally ignoring the fact that most of the passengers leg it for another bus OUT of the same street...

However although Calina is to be commended on her appreciation of Parnell Square the reality is that any comprehensive Cross City Bus service will have some requirement for half-way change overs and this should not in itself present a problem if it`s managed and operated efficiently.

The real problem lies in the reluctance of Dublin Bus to aggressively market itself in terms of the space its operations require and I dont mean kerbside abandonment either...
If we look at ALL of the City Centre`s major retail developments over the past 30 years we cannot find a single incidence of the City Council even suggesting a Public Transport facility as an integral part of them.

Thus we saw the Stephens Green Centre,The Jervis Centre,The Ilac Centre,The Ilac Centre revisited,The Irish Life Centre,The Georges Quay development,The Setanta Centre,The Trinity Redevelopment,all of these and more planned devised and constructed without a SINGLE public transport space....Now that`s worth taking action over.....

In relation to the Harristown situation and its constant developments there is little doubt now but that there is a serious rift within the NBRU.
In spite of what some other posters may think,I for one don`t see this as desireable in any way shape or form for effective representation within the CIE group as a whole.

Let nobody be in any doubt but that a strong well organized,well informed and independently minded workforce should be viewed as a major asset to ANY company.

One of the less commented on aspects of Baroness Thatcher and Nicholas Ridley`s carve up of UK Public Transport to feather the nests of a few well palced Conservative Party backers was the downgrading of Bus and Train workers in terms of Job Appreciation.

Thus within a few short years the "Career" Bus Driver had become an endangered species,to be replaced by the "Casual" or Part-Time worker usually employed up to the legal minimum hours before it might have been necessary to offer a full contract.

Even the once mighty London took some years to realize the folly of this only to have Mayor Livingston resort to paying a £5 stg per day bounty in addition to the companies wages.

Large numbers of Career Busdrivers simply left the job in advance of being made redundant or changed careers to escape the Conservative realignment of the Industry.

The UK Bus industry is still struggling to make up that lost ground and only within the past 5 years have the Major Operating groups realize that if they continued to pay peanuts and treat their staff like Monkeys then they could not be surprised at the numbers of high profile accidents and assorted media disasters that their vehicles were featuring in.

Here in Ireland we managed to buck that trend and certainly in Dublin Bus`s case,the company`s image and its operations managed to stave off the challenges from all those closet Conservative Party supporters who managed to get the Ministers ear.
Meeting that challenge was only possible thanks to a strong and relatively united trade Union movement which thankfully is still functional in the Company.

However the events of the past week have placed a serious strain on all of that and it remains to be seen if the participants have enough realization of how close to midnight the Public Transport Doomsday Clock really is......

Oh...just as an aside I saw my first Swords Express this evening in Town.....A very nice VDL/Van Hool High Floor COACH with signwriting advertising a Monday 19th Nov startup.
Interesting to note that the legal lettering indicated the vehicle was owned by Eirebus of Blanchardstown.
Noticed that its routing is from The Pavillions to the IFSC via the DPA Tunnel.

Now this IS the sort of stuff my Union AND my Employer should be using it`s PR machines to seek explanations about....How the Dept continues to stall a Dublin Bus licence application for the 141, a fully accessible comprehensive service utilizing the Swords QBC in favour of what turns out to be a TOTALLY different Public Transport concept altogether...and one which can and will flourish no matter how many extra services Dublin Bus put on because the DEMAND is there !!

Now it`s bedtime...although most Dublin Bus reps are on their second sleep by now...what with having to get up at 0330 to monitor proceedings in real time....

antoinolachtnai

Hi Alek, thanks for the kind words about the Swords Express! Your confidence buoys us all up.

What you see in terms of vehicles is now isn't necessarily what you'll get forever. The difference between this route and any regular bus route is that there's a big stretch of motorway running in the middle. The advantage of that (for the customer) is that it's fast and there are few stops. The disadvantage (for the operator) is that there are a limited number of places to pick up. Average fleet age is under two years.

Our leaflet with route maps and timetable is at http://www.swordsexpress.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cl_sx_aw_v7.pdf. You can also join the mailing list on the website (http://www.swordsexpress.com/)

trellheim

f we look at ALL of the City Centre`s major retail developments over the past 30 years we cannot find a single incidence of the City Council even suggesting a Public Transport facility as an integral part of them.

Wasn't Temple Bar originally mostly owned by CIE and it was supposed to be knocked for this very purpose ?

TheDoc

in regarding to some posts a few pages back regarding to private sector workers and unions and as quoted " talking workplace changes lieing down"

This is called change. Private sector is drivin by profit margins, public is not, its run by service.

When standards in my workplace dropped earlier this year, there was major overhauls. Even recently there is new measurements in place, that are extremely annoying, but in the end if you stand back and look at the picture, its more efficent and will inevitably maximise profits.

I really didnt know that the DB drivers where going to get paid for their trips home, that is an absolute joke. So now the taxpayer gets to pay for you to get a bus home, and you get on the bus for free anyway?

And the grief and bad manners i get of some bus drivers, to think i pay these people

These changes are coming about because its believed they will make a better service. I'm sick to the teeth of this rubbish, ive again missed college today because a bus did not show. A bus scheduled to arrive....

And as reference to the bus driver commenting how bus drivers have left posting in this thread and he wont be, good, f*ck off and get back on your bus.

If i could I would sue so bad for the losses if encured this week financially and educationally.

With all the benefits you get in public sector work, you hold a capital by ransom over a 40 minute bus drive, off peak?

i cant wait for your little bubble to burst

markpb

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Our leaflet with route maps and timetable is at http://www.swordsexpress.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cl_sx_aw_v7.pdf. You can also join the mailing list on the website (http://www.swordsexpress.com/)

If nothing else, your route map leaflet is *exactly* what DB should have been doing for *years*. Clear schematic diagram, clear indication where the stops are, if you later add a working timetable for each stop, it'll be perfect. Marry me and have my bus babies

AlekSmart

No prob Anton.
My point in relation to your Swords Express concept is that whilst the Motorway routing does offer specific advantages for a certain classification of customer It will not suit many others.

As I see it you are aiming for a specific customer profile which it must be said Dublin Bus currently do not meaningfully cater for.

That being said,I cannot see any logic behind the Departments continuing refusal to immediately sanction the 141 startup as it in no way conflicts with SE,in fact if operated correctly the 141 could just as easily be a feeder service for Swords Express....??

The present Public Transport defecit in the Fingal county area is of such magnitude that one could add 5 more 141`s and another few Swords/Balbriggan/Skerries Expresses and still only scratch the surface of latent demand...."Build it.....and they will come ".

Trellheim: You are correct in your Temple Bar remark.
CIE,acting with Government approval had for several years been building up a land bank along both City Quaysides from Parliament St to O Connell St.

This was only posible with the co-operation of the then Dublin Corporation who refused rezoning and planning applications for all other developments in this area.

CIE,whilst it was amassing this land set about offering these premises on short leases to a wide variety of small creative entrepreneurs and thus was born.....The (Original) Temple Bar Cultural Quarter.

However a sudden change in Govermental policy saw the then Taoiseach Mr Haughey have a new Idea for the area which he and his friends in The fledgling Temple Bar Properties proposed a far wider scale of Cultural Quarter for the area.

This resulted in a very late night session in which the then Chairman of CIE was instructed by telephone to immediately instruct the board to cease all of its previously sanctioned activities along the quays..

This single decision left Dublin without any defined Road based public transport master plan and to a great extent can be said to be responsible for the mess we have today.

However we DO have our burgeoning Cultural Quarter ...so it must be good then.....yes ..?? :eek:

MOH

meanmachine3 wrote: »

MOH
i'm saying if we went on strike looking for a new timetable we WOULD NOT have to support of the public even if it were in their best interests

Fair enough, wasn't clear if you were saying that or the opposite. So we agree on something:

Public view = bus strikes are bad, mmmkay?

TheDoc

i wish us taxpayers, the people paying really for the service, had a say in whats going on.

I for one would probably get the army driving the buses, ive so many friends in the army doing nothing in their barracks, id have them driving the buses and receiving the bus drivers pay.

At the end of the day, WE, the commuters, are paying for that service.... im not getting what i am paying for am i.

Though that can be spread across the board, my tax money going to goverment ministers hefty new pay rises.

AlekSmart

The Doc sez : " ive so many friends in the army doing nothing in their barracks, id have them driving the buses and receiving the bus drivers pay."

Well the members of the Army shortly to deploy to Chad will certainly not suffer from this inactivity so perhaps your military friends should be left to enjoy their rest for now.

I would suggest that The Doc and the public at large IS getting the service they pay for ...and then some.
Whether we like to admit it or not,Dublin Bus is providing a comprehensive service within the restrictions imposed on it by funding.

Whilst there is much talk on this board and elsewhere about TfL and it`s structures there is no general agreement on any of US being willing to have extra taxes levied to pay for a vastly improved PT network.

Remember your average London resident is paying.
Central Taxation (PAYE)
VAT
Domestic Rates.(if a householder)
Local Taxation/Poll Tax
Water Rates.
Congestion Charging (where applicable)

Even after this they are still faced with paying a substantially higher fare per journey than what Dublin Bus charges.
The London PT network under TfL is indeed a hugely functional model BUT do not be under the illusion it can be repeated here UNLESS the political will is present.

The currrent Commissioner for London Public Transport,Peter Hendy has constantly warned other UK areas against attempting to emulate the TfL model UNLESS they were prepared to fully fund every aspect of it......That type of thinking is noticably absent from Central Irish Administration...so lets just put a stroke through that idea.....

Oh well...there`s bound to be an Irish solution to our Irish problem along any minute now.....:rolleyes:

Jip

AlekSmart wrote: »

Remember your average London resident is paying.
Central Taxation (PAYE)
VAT
Domestic Rates.(if a householder)
Local Taxation/Poll Tax
Water Rates.
Congestion Charging (where applicable)

and what has London and whatever taxes and charges its residents pay got to do with the current riduclous situation ?

Ham'nd'egger

Jip wrote: »

and what has London and whatever taxes and charges its residents pay got to do with the current riduclous situation ?

Simple, Jip; they get more but they pay more for it.

paulm17781

AlekSmart wrote: »

Even after this they are still faced with paying a substantially higher fare per journey than what Dublin Bus charges.
The London PT network under TfL is indeed a hugely functional model BUT do not be under the illusion it can be repeated here UNLESS the political will is present.

Alek, I totally agree, however, with Oyster, the bus fare is flat 90p regardless of where you go.

bk

Also London buses subsidy isn't too much higher then DB at 31% versus 25%.

I don't think there would be much trouble with the government raising the subsidy that much for the benefit of a London bus sort of operation.

bk

You know people here seem to be implying that to implement a TfL style bus system here in Ireland would be very expensive, but I've looked into the actual cost of it and I've been shocked at the results.

Taken from the CIE 2006 annual report:
DB Passengers carried: 146 million
DB expenditure: €260 million
Expense per passenger journey: €1.78

Taken from the TfL 2006 annual report:
Passengers carried: 1,816 million
Expenditure: £1,555 million
Expense per passenger journey: £0.86 (€1.20 at todays exchange rate)

As of two months ago they actually reduced the fare on London Bus using the Oyster card from £1 to £0.9 (€1.25) for any length of journey, that is a 10% reduction in fares, that is at a time when our lads in CIE are looking for yet another fare increase.

As a comparison, fare on London Bus €1.25 for any distance, fare on DB €1.40 to €1.90.

So why would it cost so much more in fares and taxes to finance a TfL style bus service here in Ireland?

lostexpectation

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

http://www.swordsexpress.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cl_sx_aw_v7.pdf.

wow a pyschodelic bus company :P

constellation

lostexpectation wrote: »

wow a pyschodelic bus company :P

We've had that for years in Dublin.

Oh wait.

I'm confusing pyschodelic with psychotic.

antoinolachtnai

Alek,

Are you saying that the cost per mile (including fares, social subsidy, amortized equipment grants and so on) for public transport in Dublin is lower than London?

Antoin.

AlekSmart

No Antoin I`m not encouraging any comparisons with the London model at all,in fact I`m attempting to caution agin it.

The only reason I mention it is due to a fairly constant process on various Internet sites whereby at some point in any debate about Dublins current PT defecit somebody will happen along and say.......Well,IN LONDON THEY DO etc etc etc ....

My point is that the entire London surface public transport system operates to an entirely different drumbeat than our Authorities are presently prepared to countenance.
For example the role played in the overall management of London by TfL is vast and encompasses every possible aspect which could have a bearing on surface travel.

My points about funding is simply that TfL has a far more clearly defined funding base and has strongly defined areas where that money can be spent.
The City also benefits from a strong Mayoralty and its associated infrastructure,although what exactly will happen when the mercurial Mr Livingston steps down is anybody`s guess.

Whilst we did take a tentative step in that direction with the report of the Working Party on the formation of a Dublin Transport Authority,the Cabinet took a decision to reject at the outset the working party`s first and essentially it`s most important recommendation namely that any Dublin Transport Authority would have a STATUTORY role in Planning matters within it`s area of operation.

Once the Government refused to run with that CORE recommendation the chances of any Dublin Transport Authority being able to achieve the level of REAL change necessary for progress disappeared.

The reasons stated by (then) Minister Martin Cullen (Who went to some lengths to underline the Cabinet Decision element) centred upon Government fears that granting of such powers to a Body such as a DTA would reduce confidence in the democratic process in relation to planning.....

I could scarcely stop laughing when I read Minister Cullens words in the Introduction to the draft report......"Confidence in the Democratic Process"....in relation to Planning.....In DUBLIN......:)

No doubt about it but there was indeed a crisis of confidence when the report was circulated,however I rather suspect that crisis was more to be felt along the corridors of development rather than down in the barrio....

Its all to apparent that with the simultaneous departure of Professor Margaret O Mahoney from any further involvement with a DTA body the Minister was then once again left with an empty pitch,which suited him just grand.

Why then after continuing to talk up the emasculated DTA report have we had virtually no sight nor sound of any further examples of a cognitive process in relation to Public Transport Infrastructural Policy and how we should be progressing.....Why indeed.... :eek:

Red Alert

I'm just back from Chicago. Now for a country that prefers the car to the bus, I never saw an easier to use system before:

Clearly laid out L lines, route maps, well designed bus routes.

Single fare for all routes, only difference being that a 'transfer fare' of 25 cents exists if you're doing a transfer from another route. (Using 'old' magnetic stripe technology whereas DB/RPA/everyone is hiding behind an eventual smart card introduction to delay having to do anything)

Clear and loud internal and external announcements on the bus, curiously including its 'Run Number' like 48A/10. Good internal signage.

And the best news is that the whole system is run by the Chicago Transit Authority, and the few private operators around do so on their own steam with no handouts/help from the government. Food for thought, considering that the strike is almost the least of DB's problems.

Jamar

The Labour Court is issuing recommendations this evening, and these will be voted on according to the rte web site.

MiniD

Any news yet as to what the new recommendations involve, and if drivers are willing to accept them?

Will there be a full bus service tomorrow?

Heart

Ballot currently being held, no results until after 6pm.

H

jahalpin

Hopefully the workers will realize how much of an effect their selfish actions are having on the customers of Dublin Bus and they will vote to end this stupid strike.

I have been personally affected by this strike as I have to get the 83 to work and had to get lifts in and out of work everyday last week. The union has done itself no favors with the public by causing this strike, the public are very against the strike and most see the union as the cause rather than the company.

Jamar

According to 6pm news, both unions have agreed to go back to work.

Still some problem with the new routes...

MiniD

Does anybody know the difference in these new Labour Court recommendations and the previous set?