[Spoiler]Tonight's result: Good or bad?

nesf

Irish Wolf wrote:

Indeed - but stranger things have happened - I've no doubt we will, but the opening two matches are not to be written off at any cost..

It's absolutely imperative that we get the bonus points from these matches.

I completely agree. We can't afford to go in and mess around in both games, we have a very specific task to perform in both, get a bonus point and rack up an impressive margin. If this team is worth the hype they've got surrounding them this should be easily within their reach.

fantasma

I am sure the lads were watching this one. We need to wait and see what will happen on Sunday first. One game at a time. The tiger is wise.

aidan24326

We need to win the group. Come second and we're up against NZ in the quarter finals. Win the group and we have a quarter final against Scotland and would avoid NZ/Aust until the final if we got that far.

So need to beat both France and the Argies. Time to live up to the hype now! The French will be under massive pressure now for the Ireland match, tonight's result has really lit the fuse for that game.

decbuck

I think this can only be seen as a good result for Ireland. France were nervy in front of their crowd and are better than that. That is as good as Argentina can play (granted they could have scored the extra penalties).

Argentina's lineout was predictable and they lost most important lineouts. We would capatilse on this.

O'Sullivan said during the week, that he could see all the top 3 beating each other and the group coming down to points. That proves what a good coach he his, as I bet he was not surprised by that result. Points will count, but we should not loose sight of the fact that we should be 90% sure of beating Argentina.

In my opinion, we can now afford to loose to France and still top the group. no one wants to meat the All Blacks in the quarters, but no one is mentioning that this is sport.

Rugby is a game played on pride and passion, and who ever makes it to the quarters deserve it. And from there it really is all on the day. That is sport.

Any of the top eight can beat the all blacks on their day and this cannot be forgotten. It would be a shock but not like the biggest upset ever, if the allblacks were beaten in the quarter or semi by anyone!

I'm sure loads will disagree, but I think we should be more confident than ever for reaching a semi. after that we should gather together as a nation and enjoy it. Roll back to Italia 90 and the excitement that overtook the country.

Thats my lot. Be interested to hear your replies!!!

Irish Wolf

aidan24326 wrote:

We need to win the group. Come second and we're up against NZ in the quarter finals. Win the group and we have a quarter final against Scotland and would avoid NZ/Aust until the final if we got that far.

So need to beat both France and the Argies. Time to live up to the hype now! The French will be under massive pressure now for the Ireland match, tonight's result has really lit the fuse for that game.

Well if we top the group then we'll come up against either Scotland or Italy (and going by recent form Italy are more likely).. And if that's the case and we meet and beat Italy in the QF then we'll more than likely be confronted by South Africa in the semis..

If we finish second and spare our resources - bust a nut - and beat New Zealand in the quarters.. then we've more than likely got Australia in semis..

tbh.. I'd have more confidence in us beatting the Aussies than the Saffies..

Attractive Nun

Everyone's so sure 2nd place will play the All Blacks - maybe Scotland/Italy will do a number on them... yeah OK hardly likely but you never know...

What I do know is that, if the above were to happen, and Ireland were to beat France in a week and a half, then the Ireland vs Argentina match would be very interesting - both teams going out to lose!

zAbbo

I reckon Scotland will put their B team out against NZ, and look to beat Italy for the 1/4's

If we do end up playing NZ in the 1/4's it will have been a long time since they played a competitive game.

Personally I think we'll beat both France and Argentina, and here's why..

France are under tremendous pressure, will Laporte keep the half back partnership, or will he try and integrate Frédéric Michalak or Lionel Beauxis at Out Half, doing so, I think he would put in Jean-Baptiste Elissalde at Scrummie for goalkicking duties. Effectively not knowing his best combo, don't be surprised if he tries to cover all the bases, by putting Traille at 10, and Skrela at 12. Poitrenaud will return at FB, but he's short on form, and the pressure will be high. There's going to be a lot of pressure on every French player, and with only one game against Namibia for them, there's no time to test the strongest squad. France don't play for another 9 days, thats 9 days of Media inquest

Argentina started well, and defended bravely, but Hernandez at 10 was poor kicking from hand, how many poorly attempted garyowens did he try in the second half, and botched drop kicks ? He is overly lazy with his kicking. Expect a few block downs when we play. Also there is no way in the world they will get away with handing over pocession to the likes of Girv, Shaggy and Hickie, not when there's the likes of Dricco and D'Arcy in support. If argentina kick even half the amount of ball to our backs, we'll win by double figures. The Argentina lineout was poor, overly simplistic, we'll destroy them, so they will be more inclined to kick in field. France took them apart up front as well, winning a few scrums against the head.

There was absolutely nothing on show tonight that we should fear.

This Irish team do not need a poor performance to win, simply if we play to our ability, we will win.

Exciting start to what should be an exciting tournament.

Irish Wolf

zabbo wrote:

I Effectively not knowing his best combo, don't be surprised if he tries to cover all the bases, by putting Traille at 10, and Skrela at 12..

The same way Eddie might throw the Bull in as kicker

zabbo wrote:

Expect a few block downs when we play.

Why's that then?

zabbo wrote:

The Argentina lineout was poor, overly simplistic, we'll destroy them, so they will be more inclined to kick in field.

Same can be said of the French lineout

zabbo wrote:

There was absolutely nothing on show tonight that we should fear.

Definitely..

C'mon South Africa!

zAbbo

Hernandez has a very leisurely technique in kicking the ball, time he won't be afforded against us.

Laporte got it wrong tonight, initially with his selection and bench, he had no cover at FB, why on earth he picked Cédric Heymans is a mystery, Heymans getting the nod over Clément Poitrenaud (his teammate who has played at FB all season !) confirms the crazyness of Laporte.

Goodluck2me

nesf wrote:

it and being a win or die situation.

best make sure we win then so.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Easy_81

Heymans was absolutely terrible, his kicking and touch were awful.

Fair play to him that it ain't his usual position. Surely he won't be in the same position next time.

If he is I'm sure the Irish will target him as a certain weakness.

tHE vAGGABOND

[Im 'glass half full' this morning...]

We are lucky [in one way] France will have namibia next week, for their fight back. I would really not want to play them next. We are also lucky as they will be bricking it, and ahve MASSIVE pressure on them when they play us..

We are also a bit lucky that I think Argentina showed most of their hand both last night and in the summer against us. Eddie can use that and put together a gameplan of how we can beat them.

But you can bet you arse it will the old reliable france in a couple of weeks against us. Remember they know us, and know how to play us [and likewise, of course - we know them] - but for some reason Argentina always seem to beat France, 4 out of the last 5 times Im told..

But I'm rather glad I splashed out on a trip to the France and Argentina games now, both will be electric

S.M.B.

5 out of the last 6 after last night now isn't it?

zAbbo

Yes, and the 1 loss was only by 1 point, I've no idea why they were priced at 8-1 for last night, certainly made me happy

aidan24326

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

The tournament rules can be found here http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/home/rules/index.html

If bonus points were limited to 1 per game it would say so in the rules I imagine. But it doesn't. So I'd say you can get 2 bonus pts for 4 tries and a narrow loss should that happen.

edit: zabbo, surely Argentina weren't 8/1 for last night's game?

LuckyLloyd

decbuck wrote:

I think this can only be seen as a good result for Ireland. France were nervy in front of their crowd and are better than that. That is as good as Argentina can play (granted they could have scored the extra penalties).

Argentina's lineout was predictable and they lost most important lineouts. We would capatilse on this.

O'Sullivan said during the week, that he could see all the top 3 beating each other and the group coming down to points. That proves what a good coach he his, as I bet he was not surprised by that result. Points will count, but we should not loose sight of the fact that we should be 90% sure of beating Argentina.

In my opinion, we can now afford to loose to France and still top the group. no one wants to meat the All Blacks in the quarters, but no one is mentioning that this is sport.

Rugby is a game played on pride and passion, and who ever makes it to the quarters deserve it. And from there it really is all on the day. That is sport.

Any of the top eight can beat the all blacks on their day and this cannot be forgotten. It would be a shock but not like the biggest upset ever, if the allblacks were beaten in the quarter or semi by anyone!

I'm sure loads will disagree, but I think we should be more confident than ever for reaching a semi. after that we should gather together as a nation and enjoy it. Roll back to Italia 90 and the excitement that overtook the country.

Thats my lot. Be interested to hear your replies!!!

Going to play NZ in the Quarters would be better than being out of course - but if that happens it would mean that we have lost to either France or Argentina; i.e. not on our best form and playing with full confidence. As such, I would assume that NZ would make short work of us at that point.



Now, I agree that this was a good result for Ireland in so far as it indicated that both of our opponents have pretty major problems at this stage. If they both play like they did last night (and Argentina won't have as much joy lumping the ball at Dempsey btw) we should be reasonably confident of wins against both.

But on the other hand, the French will bring a backlash, and will probably come out a different team against us.

In the final analysis, this Irish team needs to go out and play IT'S best; and live up to IT'S OWN potential. If it does that, then we won't have anything to complain about whatever the result.

Oh, and, on sidenote: I was delighted to see Argentina win. The look on those boys faces before the off; the supreme physical effort they put in; and all the sh!t they have to put up with as players due to IRB policies year on year - was all made worthwile with that win. You could see what it meant for them at the final whistle. At times like that, sport is great.

aidan24326

LuckyLloyd wrote:

But on the other hand, the French will bring a backlash, and will probably come out a different team

The French are liable to be very fifferent from what we saw last night, and they do have very good record against us over the years.

Oh, and, on sidenote: I was delighted to see Argentina win. The look on those boys faces before the off; the supreme physical effort they put in; and all the sh!t they have to put up with as players due to IRB policies year on year - was all washed away with that win. You could see what it meant for them at the final whistle. At times like that, sport is great.

Argentina have been unlucky in getting tough groups every time.They will really be hoping we beat France, a win for the French in that game and I've a feeling the Argies could end up missing out again. Being host nation puts even more pressure on the French and they're in a real sh1t or bust situation against us. It's a knockout competition for them now but the French are as likely as any team to turn this right around so I'd be very wary of them.

EdgarAllenPoo

Am I the only one who thinks it would be odd if Ireland actually won.

A lot of the teams psychology is built on the whole underdog tag but if they won it they wouldn't have that to fall back on and would have to face teams like Aus,NZ and France on an even playing field.

It wouldn't be a case of "we think we can, we think we can, we hope we can". It would then be expected of them and I don't think they're up to that.

imalegend

I have been on other threads saying how did EOS get another 4 years but that game last night is great for his crappy coaching style.(only my opinion he has a crap cosching stlye)

I think we will beat both of those teams that were on that pitch last night cos EOS has us drilled to a tee in boring structured rugby...pick and go,pick and go and kick for corners....O gara will pull the strings out there all day against them and even if the french improve even though we havent shown it in warm ups we will beat them.

I would prefer to see us play a more expansive game with the back line we have but i think after last nights game it is set up for EOS to shine in polishing a team in discipine and structure.We will frustarte teams like argentina but putting them back in their own 22 and then robbing there abysmul lineout.And with the French we just need to keep structure and the defensive line is key as no matter how bad they play they can score from any where..

After last nights game i would go as far and say that we could make a semi final and even a final!!We have alot to prove but with 2 easy openers 2 get rid of the cob webs it is set up for our lads(the i have chastised)to shine.

Snickers Man

OK, somebody back in the mists of time asked can you get an extra bonus point for scoring an extra four tries, ie two bonus points for scoring eight tries. Answer: no.

it is possible to win two bonus points in a match but only if you lose.

Here's a comprehensive run down of the number of match points you can win from any game.

5 points
If you win a match and score four or more tries you get four points for the win and one bonus for scoring 4+ tries

4 points
If you win a match and score fewer than four tries, eg if you only score three tries, convert all of them and then kick anoter 20 penalties thereby winning by 81-0, you still only get 4 points

3 points
If you draw a match but score four or more tries you get two points for the draw and one bonus for scoring 4+ tries

2 points
You can earn two points for
a) drawing the game while scoring fewer than four tries
or
b) losing the game, finishing within 7 points of the victor and scoring four or more tries in the process

1 point
you can earn one point by losing the game and
a) finishing within seven points of the victor (as France did last night)
or
b) scoring four tries while still finishing more than 7 points behind the victor.

Amazingly enough, Bourgoin nearly won a bonus point for scoring four tries in the match in which Leinster put more than 90 points on them in the HC a few years back. They managed to score three tries when the game loosened up at the end. Another one would have given them a bonus, despite being hockeyed by more than 60 points.

Snickers Man

Here's an interesting little table. It makes for miserable reading by an Irish rugby fan. It is the results of France/Ireland matches in Paris between 1982 and 1996.

1996 France 45 10 Ireland
1994 France 35 15 Ireland
1992 France 44 12 Ireland
1990 France 31 12 Ireland
1988 France 25 6 Ireland
1986 France 29 9 Ireland
1984 France 25 12 Ireland
1982 France 22 9 Ireland


Note that France won them all and that the margin of victory was usually embarassing. Note too, that Ireland never scored a try in Paris during all that time. (although I think they may have been awarded a penalty try in the last minute in 1990)

There's another factor that needs to be remembered. Given the rigid schedule of the Five Nations (as was) in those days, the match weekend prior to this fixture was always Ireland's day off while France travelled to Murrayfield. In all of the above years, with the exception of 1994, France lost to Scotland. They would go over there and play somewhat like they did last night. Haphazardly, nonchalantly, making stupid handling and passing errors and the occasional hare-brained selection decision.

In every event, they would come back, lick their wounds and then slaughter ireland the following week. There were no France Ireland "matches" all through that era. A match implies a contest of equals. In all of those games, it was just unrequited massacre.

I was at one of those games. The 1988 one. Doesn't look too bad on paper, a mere 19 point defeat. In fact, it was the most comprehensive doofting of an Irish team I have ever seen, and believe me, I've seen a few. France ran in four tries and only converted one. Ireland didn't have a sniff of an attack all throughout the game. Apart from one half hearted kick and chase in the first half which the French turned into a counter attack from which they scored.

I fancy we are going to see something similar in a few week's time. They HAVE to beat us. THey don't have the option. They are going to play sensibly and not do stupid things like play a pretty winger out of position at full back.

I don't think Argentina are going to be able to hit the heights of last night again. And can I say, what a great match for the tournament and for rugby lastnight's was. Always great to see a talented underdog bite the pants of some toff.

I still say we should rest the key players for the French match and send out the cannon fodder for that one. concentrate on beating Argentina which we have to do and can do. Rather more easily than beating France in their current state.

copacetic

very surprised how many people seem to think this was a bad result for us. I thought it was a good result, they only way it could have been better was france not getting the bonus.

The way I see it coming second in the group is as bad as going out. We need to win the group and this result gave us a much better chance of doing that.

Attractive Nun

copacetic wrote:

very surprised how many people seem to think this was a bad result for us. I thought it was a good result, they only way it could have been better was france not getting the bonus.

The way I see it coming second in the group is as bad as going out. We need to win the group and this result gave us a much better chance of doing that.

Good point, although it would be something of an embarassment to go out in the group stages (not that there would be any shame in losing to Argentina or France, but still), going out in the quarter finals really isn't much better. Sure, no one will be too upset in a few weeks if we go down fighting to the All Blacks in the QF, but in a few years time when the likes of O'Driscoll, D'Arcy and O'Gara start retiring and we look back on probably the most talented Irish team ever, only reaching the World Cup QF would be an underachievement. This result gives us a better chance to top the group IMO - though probably also increases our chances of not even getting out of it. I'll take that.

copacetic

Attractive Nun wrote:

Good point, although it would be something of an embarassment to go out in the group stages (not that there would be any shame in losing to Argentina or France, but still), going out in the quarter finals really isn't much better. Sure, no one will be too upset in a few weeks if we go down fighting to the All Blacks in the QF, but in a few years time when the likes of O'Driscoll, D'Arcy and O'Gara start retiring and we look back on probably the most talented Irish team ever, only reaching the World Cup QF would be an underachievement. This result gives us a better chance to top the group IMO - though probably also increases our chances of not even getting out of it. I'll take that.

It's definitely a risk reward thing alright, we are more likely to go out but also much more likely to win the group. As you say if we are ever to really do well this is the year. If we are to do it we need to meet New Zealand later on when hopefully their suspect mentality in the really big games will come back to haunt them.

zAbbo

I'm not sure how relevant stats from over 10 years ago in the amatuer era are, with a team which is nowhere near what we have now. We don't fear the French, nor should we.

It's going to a massive contest, I think we can win, but there's also that niggle in the back of my head that we'll get embarrased

copacetic

zabbo wrote:

It's going to a massive contest, I think we can win, but there's also that niggle in the back of my head that we'll get embarrased

these are the games we live for though, I know I'll be shaking and feeling ill all day before the game (and hopefully the next day aswell but after a night of celebrations!)

It's these games where it can go either way, triumph or disaster, glory or failure, that make it all worthwhile.

zAbbo

Well said.

/me goes off to watch 'Reaching for Glory' again

JC 2K3

Snickers Man wrote:

Here's an interesting little table. It makes for miserable reading by an Irish rugby fan. It is the results of France/Ireland matches in Paris between 1982 and 1996.

I'm sorry, but what in God's name have statistics about Irish and French teams 11-25 years ago, with totally different managers and players, and before the game even turned professional, got to do with this World Cup?

Snickers Man

JC 2K3 wrote:

I'm sorry, but what in God's name have statistics about Irish and French teams 11-25 years ago, with totally different managers and players, and before the game even turned professional, got to do with this World Cup?

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

If you think for one second that the French team facing us is going to be anything like the team that lost to Argentina in terms of personnel, attitude, temperament, focus and determination then you are in for a "quare land" as they say.