flaws (Spoilers)

The Bollox

rightio, now that we have finished the masterpiece, lets discuss the flaws we noticed. I found 2, neither are big but they're still flaws, dammit!

1: in GoF, at the start, Harry tells Sirius in a letter that Dudley has thrown his Playstation out the window. This couldn't have happened as it was the summer of 1994, and the PS didn't come out until the Winter of 1995

2: in COS, Percy, as a prefect, took 5 points from Griffindor, but in OoTP neither Ron nor Hermione could take points away from anyone, despite the fact they were prefects.

have you found any?

Robbiethe3rd

SPOILER WARNING





Dumbledore thought Voldemort would make 7 horcruxes as 7 is a mystical number or whatever it was, but Voldemort, to his own knowledge only created six, he did not know that Harry was the seventh.

The Bollox

no no no, Dumbledore said Voldemort meant to make 6, as then his soul would be split in 7, the magical number. I was thinking about this aswell, and it made me think: was Nagini actually a Horcrux? it is almost definite that she was, but nothing happened when Neville went to destroy it, no mystical power tried to stop him

watna

It wasn't split in to 6, it was 7. one part of his soul was still in Voldemort's body so the horcruxes were

1) The diary
2) The ring
3) the cup
4) the diadem
5) the snake
6) harry
7) voldemort.

The flaw I noticed a while back was that in the first bkko Hagird tells Harry tht his mum and dad were head girl and head boy of hogwarts in their day, but in order of the phoenix sirius says that him and James got in to too much trouble to be prefects, so how was he head boy?

The Bollox

watna wrote:

It wasn't split in to 6, it was 7. one part of his soul was still in Voldemort's body so the horcruxes were

1) The diary
2) The ring
3) the cup
4) the diadem
5) the snake
6) harry
7) voldemort.

The flaw I noticed a while back was that in the first bkko Hagird tells Harry tht his mum and dad were head girl and head boy of hogwarts in their day, but in order of the phoenix sirius says that him and James got in to too much trouble to be prefects, so how was he head boy?

the locket... anyone?

which makes it 8 pieces

watna

I didn't think of that! I completely forgot the locket... so was Nagini not a horcrux then? or were there 8 horcruxes? Did Dumbdledore tell Harry Nagini was the horcrux so he wouldn't realise it was him? I'm half way through the book on my second read, I'll have to read very carefully this time!

The Bollox

I dunno, Dumbledore never said for certain. He said Voldy would probably have chosen his snake as he was in no position after the attack on Harry to find a treasure. also Voldy did have outstanding control of the snake and kept it under very close protection up until he thought Harry was dead, so more than likely Voldy made an 7th without knowing he had already made 6.

just my 2 cents

watna

You're probably right. Didn't Dumbledore say that Voldemort made the Horcrux without nowing, because when the killing curse backfired some of his tainted soul went in to Harry. That explains the connection they've always had. So there were 7 horcruxes and one part in Voldemort. He split his soul in to 8 then. That makes sense!

The Bollox

yeah, it does, but Harry wasn't his last Horcrux, the snake was (if it actually was made into one). Although I have never tried to split my soul I am sure you will know when it's been done, so I would be very surprised if Voldemort didn't know Harry was one of his horcruxes, and I can't see him wanting to make his soul into 8 pieces, because that would have defied the whole point

watna

It does defy the point of the magic number 7, perhaps the fact that it was an accident and he didn't want to split his soul in 8 made him more unstable and was part of his downfall because it linked him and Harry so closely.

The Bollox

I'd say the connections with Harry were enough to bring about his downfall, whether he had the 7 soul parts or not

JC 2K3

Quote from DH:

"You were the seventh Horcrux, Harry"

The Bollox

JC 2K3 wrote:

Quote from DH:

"You were the seventh Horcrux, Harry"

ah. I was always under the impression Voldy went to Godric's Hollow with his soul only (lol) in 6 pieces (so he had 5 horcruxes), and that he was going to mark the death of his biggest rival with his last horcrux, but it all went pear shaped

watna

Me too..... he was going to make something a 6th Horcrux when he killed Harry but he couldn't cause he dies (sort of). But he did accidentally make one in Harry but didn't know it. So when he killed the housekeeper with the snakle in the goblet of fire he turned her in to a horcrux.

It's good to have other people to help get my head around it. Nobody else i know has finished it yet!

JC 2K3

Ah wait, when you're counting horcruxes you don't count Voldemort himself as one, do you?

So Harry being the seventh Horcrux would mean that his soul is in 8 pieces.

nervous_twitch

yeah, Voldemort wasnt a Horcrux anyhow.. just the remainder of his soul. The snake definitely was one, otherwise what was the purpose of Voldemorts drastic protection of her?

I feel strange using his name

The Bollox

nervous_twitch wrote:

yeah, Voldemort wasnt a Horcrux anyhow.. just the remainder of his soul. The snake definitely was one, otherwise what was the purpose of Voldemorts drastic protection of her?

I know, but as I said, all we have to go on is Voldemort's amazing control over her, she showed no other signs of having Voldemort's soul inside her. I mean the Locket knew Ron's worst fears and played with them in an attempt to make him attack Harry rather than the locket. I loved when JK says "then there was a flash of the blade" I thought Ron attacked Harry, it was very well written

Corruptedmorals

Well why did Voldy fear for Nagini then, not let her leave his side, and put her into the protective fluid-cage thing?

watna

The Bollox wrote:

I know, but as I said, all we have to go on is Voldemort's amazing control over her, she showed no other signs of having Voldemort's soul inside her. I mean the Locket knew Ron's worst fears and played with them in an attempt to make him attack Harry rather than the locket. I loved when JK says "then there was a flash of the blade" I thought Ron attacked Harry, it was very well written

But Voldemort could get the snake to live in Bathilda Bagshot's body and have her walk and talk and find Harry. That's not what a normal snake or magical animal would do. That's very dark magic. That's what makes me think Nagini was a horcrux.

The Bollox

I know, I am just trying to look at it from all possible angles. I like the theory that Voldy made Nagini his horcrux after he killed Frank what's-his-face from GoF.

so we're assuming Voldemort made one more Horcrux than he originally intended to make?

watna

The Bollox wrote:

so we're assuming Voldemort made one more Horcrux than he originally intended to make?

That's what I'm assuming. I do remember Dumbledore saying he doesn't think Voldemort intended for a part of his soul to enter Harry. I'm re-reading the book so I'm going to pay better attention to taht part this time around!

Mr. Presentable

OK. These books are for children. They are not intended to be anything more than a diversion for children. Unless all the previous posters are under 12 years old, they need to get some perspective and stop treating childrens entertainment as some kind of scientific journal.

So, not to berate you for your choice of reading material - you can read what you want to - if you enjoyed it don't let picking holes in it detract from that.

nervous_twitch

was there any mention of an adverse reaction when Ron and Hermione destroyed Helga Hufflepuffs cup?

nervous_twitch

nipplenuts wrote:

OK. These books are for children

what makes you say that?

The Bollox

yeah, because Roald Dahl's books are filled with 'bastard', 'bitch' and 'arse' as well as 'what in the name of Merlin's saggy left-' nicely spotted

watna

I am aware that the books are for children. I am not trying to find anything scientific about it. The fact is that the plot of the seventh book is quite complicated (far too complicated for young kids) and we're just trying to get our heads around it.

Crumble Froo

right, ive given the book a loan to my bro, but go to the bit where harry is looking inside voldemort's mind after he's found out that they stole hufflepuff's cup from gringotts.

he goes through the horcruxes in his mind. from what i remember, they were exactly what had been guessed at by dumbledore/harry/ the reader all along, they were...

1. riddle's diary
2. slytherin's ring
3. slytherin's locket
4. hufflepuff's cup
5. ravenclaw's diadem

they were, i believe, all made before he lost his power.
so after he returned, he made his 6th horcrux, so his soul would be split into the magical 7.

6. nagini.

she was definitely a horcrux, as he went through it in his mind when he was envisioning his horcruxes, and when he realied harry was hunting them, he kept her close, and waited outside hogwarts, cos he knew harry would have to come outside to kill her.

there was, however, a 7th horcrux, meaning his soul was split into 8. there is no evidence that splitting his soul into 7 would actually strengthen it. that was his theory, and had never been done by anyone before. it is, obviously, unnatural for a soul to be split into so many pieces, and made the soul unsteady, consequently, when he should have died due to the avada kedavra, another piece of his soul flew into harry, creating the bond.

and no, there was no adverse reaction to killing the cup, when hermione did it... at least, none mentioned, but then, they had broken into dangerous death eater's extremely protected vault in gringotts, and had to steal it from there, which is supposed to be impossible.

Crumble Froo

and the books were initiallymeant for children. the depth and darkness of the books though, increased as the characters got older, voldemort got stronger, and the readers got older too.

rereading philosopher's stone... nowhere near as interesting to me now that im older, it's obviuosly made for children. rereading the half blood prince... of course thats not made for 11 year olds for god's sakes!

dan_y

what makes them for children? because they're about children? because other than that this book should appeal to everyone. it used to be a diversion, now it's a literary behemoth. so I think everyone can be forgiven for expecting the final book to have been tied off properly. even fairytales tie up loose ends. there was nothing childish about harry potter walking to his own death, surrounded by the people who had died to make it happen.

The Bollox

and something I never thought about: in OoTP, Harry see's through the snakes eyes, something he would only been able to do if Voldemort was controlling her with more then just Parseltongue, hergo, she must be a horcrux

JC 2K3

nipplenuts wrote:

OK. These books are for children. They are not intended to be anything more than a diversion for children. Unless all the previous posters are under 12 years old, they need to get some perspective and stop treating childrens entertainment as some kind of scientific journal.

It's a series of books written with the knowledge that the target audience will be older with each release. The first book is targeted at 9-11 year olds and the last one is targeted towards older teenagers.

Personally, were I to have kids, I'd encourage them to only read one a year from when they were about 10/11 until they were 17/18.

But that's beside the point, we like discussing the book, what's wrong with that?

whatawaster

One major flaw is that Trelawney knew that Snape interrupted the prophecy, which would mean he heard it all, as she goes into a trance when she makes her real predictions.

I was convinced this meant that snape purposely only told Voldy half the prophecy. However, The Prince's Tale, contradicts this. He told Dumbledore he only told him what he'd heard. I see no reason why he would have lied here.

Crumble Froo

hmmm... will have to look that one up, alright...

The Bollox

she could have come out of her trance and seen Aberforth throwing Snape out and put two and two together, or asked Dumbledore what all the comotion was when she came to and saw the bar in a bit of an uproar

whatawaster

Yeah but Dumbledore isn't going to tell her something like that - it's pretty dangerous information for someone he doesn't know or trust

The Bollox

oh, I never thought about that, this was before he turned over to the good side, well it was what made him turn, really

Mr. Presentable

JC 2K3 wrote:

we like discussing the book, what's wrong with that?

Nothing whatsoever . what I'm saying is, they were not written with a view to withstanding "adult" scrutiny. It's not War & Peace, it's the Famous Five

JC 2K3

Anyone who thinks the books bear any resemblence to The Famous Five hasn't read past book 2.

watna

Although it would be funny to see Ron, Hermione and Harry fight George, Julian, Anne and whatever the last guys name was from the famous five.... The famous five's mystery solving skills would be no match for Harry's magic!

Crumble Froo

it's dick (how in the hell did you forget that one :P )... and the dog timmy too.

he might be able to take on hedwig... but id rather not see it happen thankyou very much.

Burning Eclipse

I can remember only one flaw, and even then I'd need someone to confirm it for me.

Can't remember which book it was, but it was certainly early in the series. Hagrid makes a comment along the lines of "there wasn't a single dark wizard that didn't come out of slytherin" At the time Sirius Black was still thought to be the one who betrayed the Potters and a follower of you-know-who. But Sirius was a Gryffindor!

The Bollox

well I hardly believe every songle Slytherin ever went bad, there are always exceptions that prove the rule

Mr. Presentable

JC 2K3 wrote:

Anyone who thinks the books bear any resemblence to The Famous Five hasn't read past book 2.

I didn't mean literally

Cathmandooo

He mightnt have known harry was a horcrux, it was a bad night for him that night, i doubt he'd have known what he was exactly feeling!!!

Nagini was definitely a horcrux, why else would he have put her in the protective bubble?

Cathmandooo

Burning Eclipse wrote:

I can remember only one flaw, and even then I'd need someone to confirm it for me.

Can't remember which book it was, but it was certainly early in the series. Hagrid makes a comment along the lines of "there wasn't a single dark wizard that didn't come out of slytherin" At the time Sirius Black was still thought to be the one who betrayed the Potters and a follower of you-know-who. But Sirius was a Gryffindor!

Hagrid meant all wizards out of slytherin are evil and not that all evil wizards are from slytherin! Hardly a flaw! Hagrid got loads of things wrong

The Bollox

yeah Hagrid = teh n00b when it comes to knowing who's good and who's bad

watna

Isn't the line "there's hardly a witch or wizard that's gone bad that wasn't in slytherin"... ir something like that. That doesn't mean all bad witches/wizards were in Slytherin, just most of them!

randomchild

The Bollox wrote:

2: in COS, Percy, as a prefect, took 5 points from Griffindor, but in OoTP neither Ron nor Hermione could take points away from anyone, despite the fact they were prefects.

Was'nt Percy head boy? That entitles him to take points from his own house, which a prefect cannot.

robinph

randomchild wrote:

Was'nt Percy head boy? That entitles him to take points from his own house, which a prefect cannot.

He didn't become head boy until the third book I think.

Crumble Froo

i think that what that hagrid thing meant was that all the deatheaters were from slytherin. didnt mean all evil wizards were from slytherin, look at horace slughorn, but it did mean that the qualities that were associated with slytherin were the ones which singled out the witches and wizards who were most likely to turn bad.

once deatheaters were in power though, many turned to their side... whether through cowardice, threats, or whatever.

also, now that i think of it... were voldemort and harry actually distantly related?

like i siad earlier, i gave the book to my bro, so cant check for myself... but the family of the 'three brothers', with the hallows... they were percevill, or something like that, who was a descendant of gaunt, who was a predecessor of voldemort.

but, wasnt harry also related to the third of those brothers, who had passed down the invisibility cloak?

not a flaw thing, was just wondeirng/checking.

Crumble Froo

and i do remember, now that it's mentioned, ron threatening to put dean/séamus in detention, as he was bein an ass to harry...

but in the order of the phoenix, it's only when malfoy and them become members of the inquisitorial squad that they are able to dock points from other houses, which they couldnt do when they were just prefects.

hmm... sounds like a flaw alright.