Docklands Station of no use for most commuters

pclancy

Early morning trains are now filling up a lot, Ive got the 7:48 from coolmine on several occasions and its getting busier every week, i think more people are starting to use it. I usually get the 6:45 home and thats fairly empty but Im sure the earlier ones are busier judging by the morning crowd.

And I hardly see a station ten minutes walk from connolly as out of the way...

Enigma365

And I hardly see a station ten minutes walk from connolly as out of the way...

You must be a "glass half full" kind of person. Dodgyme is more of a "throw the glass against the wall and walk barefoot on the shards" kind of person.

Some people thrive on critcising any kind of progress. It's almost like they want these things to fail. I have no problem with thoughtful criticism. But instead of hearing "I hope this new station works out, but I have strong reservations", all we hear is "its awful, nobody will ever use it, it only suits those working in the north eastern part of the IFSC, I hate the world".

On a completely different point. Is Heuston not considerably more out of the way than the docklands station? It seems to do pretty well for itself and it didn't suddenly become popular with the luas.

loyatemu

Enigma365 wrote:

You must be a "glass half full" kind of person. Dodgyme is more of a "throw the glass against the wall and walk barefoot on the shards" kind of person.

Some people thrive on critcising any kind of progress. It's almost like they want these things to fail. I have no problem with thoughtful criticism. But instead of hearing "I hope this new station works out, but I have strong reservations", all we hear is "its awful, nobody will ever use it, it only suits those working in the north eastern part of the IFSC, I hate the world".

On a completely different point. Is Heuston not considerably more out of the way than the docklands station? It seems to do pretty well for itself and it didn't suddenly become popular with the luas.

if every second train on the Kildare line went to Pearse, which do you think would be more popular - the Heuston trains or the Pearse trains?

markpb

Enigma365 wrote:

On a completely different point. Is Heuston not considerably more out of the way than the docklands station? It seems to do pretty well for itself and it didn't suddenly become popular with the luas.

Public transport isn't like a commercial service - some people will use it (for economic, time or ideological reasons) even if it's less than perfect.

If you compare sitting in a car for up to two hours or getting a train into Heuston and a feeder service into town, even the worst train service will still be popular with some people.

The Docklands station is better than nothing and it went part of the way to solving the congestion issues on the line but Dogyme is right, it could have been solved a better way (planning permission excluded) and the feeder services could have been included in the price of the ticket. People will still use it cause it's better than nothing but that doesn't make it a good service.

gobdaw

loyatemu wrote:

if every second train on the Kildare line went to Pearse, which do you think would be more popular - the Heuston trains or the Pearse trains?

That's easy - the Pearse trains, but its not operationally possible to have that choice at present.

A more realistic question would be:
"If every second train on the Kildare line went to Docklands, which do you think would be more popular - the Heuston trains or the Docklands trains?"

or even:
"Would there be support for additional trains on the Kildare line, if they terminated at Docklands?"

dodgyme

Enigma365 wrote:

You must be a "glass half full" kind of person. Dodgyme is more of a "throw the glass against the wall and walk barefoot on the shards" kind of person..

No I am not! Making me out to be a lunatic because I expect a half decent transport system is the problem in this country

Enigma365 wrote:

On a completely different point. Is Heuston not considerably more out of the way than the docklands station? It seems to do pretty well for itself and it didn't suddenly become popular with the luas.

yes this is a completely different point???!!! Cant see what point ???

pclancy wrote:

I hardly see a station ten minutes walk from connolly as out of the way.....

ok perhaps you dont but put it in the context of the following journey (and all the plenty like it) to work and you might.
A commuters JOURNEY DAIRY. Clonsilla to Sandyford - (door to door)
Morning (note: times given are accumulated) SLH = Since Leaving House
--> House estate doesn't have pedestrian access towards Bus station, it means an extra 10 mins walk, because you must first go to the exit of the estate and back track towards the 39 bus stop. (bad planning) (15 mins SLH to 39 bus)
--> then you wait with no bus shelter at the stop and buy a single ticket just to Clonsilla (30 mins SLH )
--> then you walk across the treacherous and mucky entrance to clonsilla station and wait for train/get ticket (a 'return from town' ticket ) etc (now 40 mins SLH)
--> After getting a train to Pearse (75 mins SLH) (not docklands since alot of people snubbed the docklands trains), walked and waited for the Luas. (95 mins SLH)
--> then bought 3rd ticket (the fare of which was increased for rush hour just for that extra attraction.) and got the Luas to sandyford. (118 mins SLH)
--> Oh and then walked to work. (130 mins SLH)
Evening. (Too long to keep times)
--> Luas into town
--> walked to quay to get bus to docklands station.
--> no bus around quay??, pays for a taxi to the station
--> Then the 'return from town' ticket bought in the morning in clonsilla doesn't work here because it is not a Docklands return. This is discussed elsewhere on this thread
--> gets another ticket and finally the train home.
--> the train was virtually empty from the docklands
--> then wait for 39 in the rain for 15-20 mins and walk home after.
What a joke of a transport system! and an answer to comments like "I hardly see a station ten minutes walk from connolly as out of the way" :eek:

Chris_533976

2+ hours travelling to work is insane. For the sake of your sanity, please look for another job

markpb

Chris_533976 wrote:

2+ hours travelling to work is insane. For the sake of your sanity, please look for another job

I know (hope) you were joking because he's pointing out exactly what's wrong with public transport in this country. Integration.

Having a station "only ten minutes" away from another station is a joke. Having no through ticketing for multi-modal trips is a joke. Having the rail authority being forced to deal with train congestion by building a station which is unconnected to the rest of the network and has a life of only ten years is silly.

_Kaiser_

I think you (Chris_533976) are missing his point. It's not necessarily the distance involved, but the whole cumbersome and painful exercises it becomes with Public Transport in this city/country.

Take me for example.. When I lived in Coolock, I was working in Blanch. By car this is a simple 25 minute (by M50) or 40 minute (via Ballymun and Finglas) trip.

By bus however...
- 27 to Northside SC
- 17A to Finglas
- 220 to Blanch

..and the same back, or:
- 38/A to town
- 27 home

total journey time: 90 mins - 2 hours .. each way! (and that doesn't allow for late/early/non-appearing buses either.. something the 220 used to do quite a lot!).

And getting another job/moving isn't always a viable option either.

daymobrew

IMO dodgyme chooses a particularly awkward route to make the point.
I'd cycle to Clonsilla station, take a train to Blackrock (some Maynooth trains serve Blackrock so you wouldn't even have to change trains) and then the 114 bus to Sandyford.

markpb wrote:

Having no through ticketing for multi-modal trips is a joke.

We do have integrated ticketing under some circumstances. The gap in dodgyme's route would be the bus to Clonsilla station, but the train ticket should be to cover the rest of the journey.

dodgyme wrote:

House estate doesn't have pedestrian access towards Bus station

While it could be bad planning, you will frequently see such pedestrian access points closed off by the county council, normally at the request of residents.
I wrote to Fingal County Council asking them to reconsider a plan to remove an item from a local area plan where a pedestrian and cyclist right of way between Mulberry Park and an adjacent area (which doesn't even have any plans for development!) would be closed. :rolleyes:

daymobrew

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Take me for example.. When I lived in Coolock, I was working in Blanch. By car this is a simple 25 minute (by M50) or 40 minute (via Ballymun and Finglas) trip.

When I was on my 6 month work placement in college, I cycled between the Castleknock village and the industrial estate beside Northside SC. Less than 40 mins. But I'm a skinny exercise junkie

markpb

daymobrew wrote:

IMO dodgyme chooses a particularly awkward route to make the point.
I'd cycle to Clonsilla station, take a train to Blackrock (some Maynooth trains serve Blackrock so you wouldn't even have to change trains) and then the 114 bus to Sandyford.

He chose the public transport route. I do cycle and I'd love more people to cycle but it's their choice and if they choose to use public transport, the options (for that route) are crappy.

Co-incidentally, I'm about to move jobs so I'll be commuting to Sandyford from next week. I've been warned by everyone to avoid the 114 and a quick look at the timetable shows why. A massive three buses in the morning: 0710, 0740 and 0815. If any of those fail to run or if the train is late, I'd be screwed. The evening buses are even worse, there's no way I'd rely on them. For me that means bus + luas or cycle + luas.

We do have integrated ticketing under some circumstances.

If you peer hard enough, yes that could be construed as integrated ticketing. In the real world, it's not.

MarkoP11

Well you can get through tickets to/from 114 to all DART stations though it appears on bus they can only manage the DART line where as the ticket office at a station should be able to manage better, but really a bus/rail combined monthly is the way to go. Note student rail only tickets are valid 90/91/92/93/102/114

Really the best option is to get to Pearse and walk to Green Luas or inquire with employer concerning private shuttle bus from Blackrock station

markpb

MarkoP11 wrote:

Well you can get through tickets to/from 114 to all DART stations

So we have through ticketing but absolutely diabolical frequencies? That's not a lot of use.

Really the best option is to get to Pearse and walk to Green Luas or inquire with employer concerning private shuttle bus from Blackrock station

What I didn't mention (explicitly) is that I have to get an orbital bus to the Dart line which takes 10+ minutes. If I have to change mode a second time and walk between Pearse and SSG then using the train is useless to me. I may as well bus into town and luas from there because it'll be faster.

I'm not saying there should be a dart+bus option for everyone but in this case there is an option for me but the lack of a decent feeder service stops me using it. In dogyme's case, the lack of decent integration and ticketing stops him.

Ultimately this is the problem with Docklands station. It's a decent compromise but it breaks the network/interchange model by building a station which is unconnected to the rest of the rail network and is connected to the city centre by a bus you have to pay extra for. Oh and whose feeder tickets are only valid in one direction (train+bus but not bus+train).

dodgyme

daymobrew wrote:

IMO dodgyme chooses a particularly awkward route to make the point.
I'd cycle to Clonsilla station, take a train to Blackrock (some Maynooth trains serve Blackrock so you wouldn't even have to change trains) and then the 114 bus to Sandyford.:

The "Awkward" route choosen was because the 114 wasnt working out and it wasnt to make a point okay, lets get that clear, it was to get to work. Doing the 114 route on the way home was even worse - miss a connection and spend upto an hour waiting ot try to get the wonderly wagon 39 around west dublin for another hour and pay again for yet another ticket. Also in the morning you'd keep missing the 114 it by a few short minutes and would have your nails chewed off while waiting outside connolly incase it would happen again. The changes in timetables and where the train went too effected this also. Also the number of notes thrown on taxis from blackrock was starting to hit home.
I really think you need to understand the journeys people have to make.

daymobrew wrote:

While it could be bad planning, you will frequently see such pedestrian access points closed off by the county council, normally at the request of residents..:

There wasnt one to start with!

daymobrew wrote:

I'd cycle to Clonsilla station
..:

-
good for you, not a nice option when you have an expense suit on because you attend meetings (and want to avoid mohekan dirt tracks up the back of, and want to avoid sweat stains on the double cuff shirt your mother gave you for xmas) and are heading off with a laptop and a few folders of notes. Just because it suits you doesnt mean it suits everybody hence it is not a solution. And also if it is raining, its not very pleasant.

Zebra3

To go back to the main point of the thread, I assume the Docklands station will be of use to the those wanting to get to the new national conference centre due to open in 2010. And that this will have a domino effect on development around it.....and therefore on demand for the station...

Victor

markpb wrote:

I know (hope) you were joking because he's pointing out exactly what's wrong with public transport in this country. Integration.

Not quite, dodgyme has an extreme journey. The ideal would be for him to live nearer work.

Or get a 39X, 70B or 70X to Belfield and then another bus to Sandyford or get the 44/C outside Pearse to Sandyford, although I do admit Luas is much more popular than the 44 or the 11.

OTK

The 114 is useless at its current frequency. I tried it once but how can you use a bus as part of your journey to work that at best arrives every 30 minutes but at worst 60 minutes?

dodgyme's problem is that it takes him too long to get into town: 2 hours to reach Stephen's Green. Getting from his house to just about anywhere else in Dublin is going to be a nightmare by public transport. The planners allowed many houses to be built at low density, out of range of the railway station. On the plus side, dodgyme probably has a nice front and back garden that he can luxuriate in and thank the planners for providing.

Public transport provision cannot serve people who live far away from railway stations or, at worst, radial QBCs. Trying to help them with infrequent roundabout bus routes is a waste of time and money. Public transport provision in Dublin should limit its remit to providing for those who can feasibly be connected to a high-capacity, connected network. Everyone else can rot in drive as close to the nearest station and start their journeys from there.

dodgyme

OTK wrote:

The 114 is useless at its current frequency. I tried it once but how can you use a bus as part of your journey to work that at best arrives every 30 minutes but at worst 60 minutes?

dodgyme's problem is that it takes him too long to get into town: 2 hours to reach Stephen's Green. Getting from his house to just about anywhere else in Dublin is going to be a nightmare by public transport. The planners allowed many houses to be built at low density, out of range of the railway station. On the plus side, dodgyme probably has a nice front and back garden that he can luxuriate in and thank the planners for providing.

Public transport provision cannot serve people who live far away from railway stations or, at worst, radial QBCs. Trying to help them with infrequent roundabout bus routes is a waste of time and money. Public transport provision in Dublin should limit its remit to providing for those who can feasibly be connected to a high-capacity, connected network. Everyone else can rot in drive as close to the nearest station and start their journeys from there.

Many good points,The problem is that Dublin is one of the only citys I know where once the buses go outside cycling distance of the city centre they end up like some zig zag tour all over the place and taking hours off peoples day, and where to get from any part of the city where the journey starts outside the city centre to a destination outside the city centre is a joke.

e.g Take Tallaght to clonsilla. I tried this once. 30 mins into town from tallaght. Just missed the clonsilla train, had to wait an hour for another one. Took two and half hours to get home. It seems no what journey you take you are really up against it, and thats why I started this thread because of the annoyance that when they build a station they stick it down in the docklands. And what is more annoying is the residents of dublin west told them this.

Archytas

I don't see why the Toronto model of public transport isn't used... $2.25 to get absolutely anywhere in the city using whatever method of public transport you want.

I used to get on a tram (15 min journey) to a spot where I could change to a bus (10 mins) and then another tram (5 mins) to work.

But then again - Dublin isn't anything like Toronto - The city construction lends itself to trams going east west buses going north south. And then a handy subway.

I don't like the idea of paying an extra fare on top of my ticket to get from Heuston to the City Centre, but I put up with it because its only temporary(been doing it for 11 years...) and as soon as I can, I'm driving in every day from Naas.

It'll probably mean joining queues of traffic but at least I don't have to share my air with some horrible yoke.

getting back to the point though - Was there any public consultancy on the building of the station? How long has it taken since plan inception to building?

markf909

Co-incidentally, I'm about to move jobs so I'll be commuting to Sandyford from next week. I've been warned by everyone to avoid the 114 and a quick look at the timetable shows why. .

I have recently started working in Leopardstown and take the train each morning from Maynooth. Train / Walk / Luas / Walk is about 90 mins e/w.

Getting a monthly CIE ticket is a must, it really offers one of the few integrated ticketing options in the city. I also have a monthly Luas as well.

I've yet to try the 114 experience but I doubt it would be quicker.

dodgyme

markf909 wrote:

I have recently started working in Leopardstown and take the train each morning from Maynooth. Train / Walk / Luas / Walk.

Bet you are often wondering why they didnt just push the luas line around merrion sq to join up with Pearse st station?

markf909

dodgyme wrote:

Bet you are often wondering why they didnt just push the luas line around merrion sq to join up with Pearse st station?

Any connection between the Luas would be great for sure, the walk from Pearse can be a pain but if I want to get an express train home, then I must walk from the Green to Connolly. Hardly a joined up system.

Speaking of joined up, I must carry two separate monthly tickets and two separate ID's for them. Go figure!

OTK

I think the clonsilla line will link with metro north at drumcondra in 2012 where you can change to go to Stephens Green and then change again to get the green luas south. You won't be able to stay on the same train because we will have two parallel disconnected routes in the city centre.

dodgyme

markf909 wrote:

Any connection between the Luas would be great for sure, the walk from Pearse can be a pain but if I want to get an express train home, then I must walk from the Green to Connolly. Hardly a joined up system.

Speaking of joined up, I must carry two separate monthly tickets and two separate ID's for them. Go figure!

Its very frustrating when even the newer infrastructure is not joining

MarkoP11

markf909 wrote:

Speaking of joined up, I must carry two separate monthly tickets and two separate ID's for them. Go figure!

CIE id card is accepted on Luas and it is possible to get a Bus/Luas, Rail/Luas weekly and monthly tickets. Luas TVM's won't sell the Rail/Luas one and Veoila have ignored emails asking why they don't

Fare details http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/dart/your_ticket/prepaid_fares.asp

AlekSmart

Mind you....Running the 46B down to Docklands Station INSTEAD of nonsensical Mountjoy Square would offer some very viable links in this context especially if it travels via QBC to Brewery Road and thence Sandyford.....????

Victor

OTK wrote:

I think the clonsilla line will link with metro north at drumcondra in 2012 where you can change to go to Stephens Green and then change again to get the green luas south. You won't be able to stay on the same train because we will have two parallel disconnected routes in the city centre.

Alternatively change to Luas at Liffey Junction.

Metrobest

AlekSmart wrote:

Mind you....Running the 46B down to Docklands Station INSTEAD of nonsensical Mountjoy Square would offer some very viable links in this context especially if it travels via QBC to Brewery Road and thence Sandyford.....????

How about running the 46A down there as a "prepay only" bus. Show a valid rail ticket to the driver and the section from Stephen's Green (luas) to Docklands is free.

While we wait (and wait) for things like BX and metro, this is an interim solution that would benefit many commuters as it links luas lines and makes Docklands more accessible. And it doesn't fleece them like the current arrangements do.

Can it be done without CIE looking for more subsidies? Absolutely.

The number 92 route can be culled as its raison d'être will be destroyed by the frequency of a 46A. Plus, with the 46A going prepay only, journey times on that route will be about 10 minutes faster, the time saved allowing the buses to go that bit further. Alex I am going to upload pics of Sydney's prepay bus 333 soon so you can see what it looks like here. You're going to love it.

News released by the Sydney bus company recently says that patronage on this route has risen 20% since the prepay only system came into force, and the precentage of passengers paying by cash on the route as a whole (including the old route which still accepts cash) has fallen dramatically as commuters see the benefits of prepay.