Are they cities at all?

OTK

Every town over 10,000 connected by rail apart from Navan and Letterkenny.

edit: and Midleton (coming soon)
edit: and Carrigaline

Dub13

OTK wrote:

Every town over 10,000 connected by rail apart from Navan

Thats what you get for giving us Hector Ó hEochagáin....:p

gurramok

OTK wrote:

Every town over 10,000 connected by rail apart from Navan and Letterkenny.

edit: and Midleton (coming soon)
edit: and Carrigaline

Not forgetting car-dependent Swords and its nearby Airport!:mad:

Victor

More correctly:

Letterkenny - no railway
Carrigaline - no railway

Midleton - no railway services
Navan - no passenger services

Swords - served by Malahide
Naas - served by Sallins
Parts of Dublin - served by nearby services

Celbridge - served by Hazelhatch
Clonmel - regional service only
Ennis - commuter service only

gurramok

Victor wrote:

More correctly:

Swords - served by Malahide

Err, you are taking the mick here?

Malahide is a few miles away from Swords or are you suggesting Swords residents have a decent train service so they all migrate with their cars to the 'park & ride' facility beside Malahide station bang in centre of Malahide town?

Maskhadov

The only proper city we have is Dublin.

IHowever by irish standards I think there are only 5 cities on the entire island. The same amount as Germany but no where similar. Belfast should be included and Waterford dropped. Limerick has the possibilty of a deep port and a major airport and Galway is the only location of consequence in the west of ireland but really is only a large town.

Bards

Maskhadov wrote:

The only proper city we have is Dublin.

IHowever by irish standards I think there are only 5 cities on the entire island. The same amount as Germany but no where similar. Belfast should be included and Waterford dropped. Limerick has the possibilty of a deep port and a major airport and Galway is the only location of consequence in the west of ireland but really is only a large town.

Belfast is not in the Republic of Ireland...yet!!

ah yes.. let's drop Ireland oldest and first City... not on your life...

we are the best located City to mainland europe and if we got parity of state investment we would far surpass the Galway's and Limericks of this world.



oh and believe it or not Waterford has a deep sea port. just look at the tall shippes in 2005.. they were able to travel right into the heart of the City. - seee below


Small snippet about Waterford Port - Bellview http://www.portofwaterford.com/
=============================================================
The Port of Waterford is the most modern port in Ireland. The Port is on the River Suir, 14 miles from the open sea, Waterford Port is the nearest major Irish port to mainland Europe, providing a saving to shippers of both time and fuel. The Port is strategically located in relation to the Republic of Ireland's main markets in the United Kingdom and Continental Europe and is a natural hub for the integration of port, shipping, road and rail freight services. Waterford is a very attractive location for Ireland’s importers and exporters.

Waterford Port handles lo-lo, bulk liquid, bulk solid and breakbulk/general cargoes. The Belview facility reduces sailing times between Waterford and the UK/Continent by about one hour and also achieves reductions in turnaround times for ships. Waterford Port operates 24 hours a day, seven days per week.

In 2005, 776 vessels called at the port carrying a total of 2.6 million tonnes of cargo. Container throughput in 2005 was 137,453 laden 20ft equivalent units.
Cargo throughput for 2006 is forecast to be 2.65 million tonnes.

mike65

Ignorance is no excuse!

Mike.

nesf

Maskhadov wrote:

The only proper city we have is Dublin.

Define proper. Do you mean by population?

Maskhadov wrote:

However by irish standards I think there are only 5 cities on the entire island. The same amount as Germany but no where similar. Belfast should be included and Waterford dropped. Limerick has the possibilty of a deep port and a major airport and Galway is the only location of consequence in the west of ireland but really is only a large town.

Where does Cork stand in your opinion? Out of interest.

merlante

Maskhadov wrote:

The only proper city we have is Dublin.

IHowever by irish standards I think there are only 5 cities on the entire island. The same amount as Germany but no where similar. Belfast should be included and Waterford dropped. Limerick has the possibilty of a deep port and a major airport and Galway is the only location of consequence in the west of ireland but really is only a large town.

You drop Waterford and you have no representative for one of the most populous regions of the country, and also a port with huge potential, due to location, modern and improving infrastructure and is as much of a deep port as Limerick. The five cities are natural regional capitals and well spread out around the only island. You could hardly plan a better collection of urban centres for spatial distribution of population on the island (except that Dublin has too great a share of the population).

Just as Galway is the only location of consequence in the west, Waterford is by far the largest centre in the south east, which has a significantly higher population and population density than the west.

In the republic the cities are and should be:
Dublin
Cork
Limerick
Galway
Waterford

and in the north there are two real cities:
Belfast
Derry

With the revival of Ireland's economy all these cities, or at least the ones in the republic, are growing strongly. There are no towns outside the Dublin commuter belt that come even remotely close in population to the regional cities.

1huge1

Maskhadov wrote:

The only proper city we have is Dublin.

IHowever by irish standards I think there are only 5 cities on the entire island. The same amount as Germany but no where similar. Belfast should be included and Waterford dropped. Limerick has the possibilty of a deep port and a major airport and Galway is the only location of consequence in the west of ireland but really is only a large town.

Forget belfast I dont care what will happen in the future the fact is they are in a different country as us now, and drop waterford? were did ya get this from

Victor

gurramok wrote:

Err, you are taking the mick here? Malahide is a few miles away from Swords or are you suggesting Swords residents have a decent train service so they all migrate with their cars to the 'park & ride' facility beside Malahide station bang in centre of Malahide town?

Quite a few people from Swords use Malahide, especially if they are heading for somewhere on the DART line past the city centre.

With the revival of Ireland's economy all these cities, or at least the ones in the republic, are growing strongly. There are no towns outside the Dublin commuter belt that come even remotely close in population to the regional cities.

Depending on how one defines "the Dublin commuter belt"

Waterford City 49,213
Drogheda 35,090
Dundalk 35,085

Happy Bertie

Victor wrote:

Quite a few people from Swords use Malahide, especially if they are heading for somewhere on the DART line past the city centre.
Depending on how one defines "the Dublin commuter belt"

Waterford City 49,213
Drogheda 35,090
Dundalk 35,085

Congrats Victor on reaching the 30,000 posts mark, I think if you compiled all the posts in one book, it would be a pretty heavy book albeit an interesting one.

JupiterKid

The problem with the Irish urban hierarchy is that Dublin is over 5 times the size of Cork, which itself is twice the size of the next largest city, Limerick. Dublin completely dominates the country and its total dominance is partially the result of failed regional policy in previous times - if Buchanan's 1968 spatial plan was implemented instead of being savaged in favour of scattergun development with a "factory in every parish" Ireland might have stronger regional cities today. Also, the disgracefully permissive approach to allowing one off rural houses to be built all over the countryside has held back the development of our rural towns.

Basically, Dublin in the only medium sized city in international terms in Ireland. It also is the only metropolitan area. Cork, Limerick and Galway are small provincial/regional cities that serve as foci for their hinterlands. Waterford is just about a city IMO - I would personally suggest a 50,000 population in the contiguous built up area and 100,000 in city plus hinterland as a minimum cut off for a city status.

Another problems I see it is that the North West has no city at all - just a largish town - Sligo - that actually LOST population for its entire area between 2002 and 2006 - not good and one major reason why the North West is lagging behind the rest of the country. New industries and businesses will no longer set up in remote villages - urban areas are the engines of growth. If a company intending on investing Ireland is not prepared to look beyond Dublin, then there is really little govt can do.

Actually, Galway was just really a big town in the early 60s before it underwant explosive growth. If goverment wanted, Sligo could do the same -and become the next Galway - but is the commitment there?

mike65

A few years back, someone had the 'mad' idea of creating a whole new city in the NW. Can't recall much detail right now.

Mike

Maskhadov

make that 1 city so.

JackieChan

mike65 wrote:

A few years back, someone had the 'mad' idea of creating a whole new city in the NW. Can't recall much detail right now.

Mike

I think this is the chestnut your thinking of

http://www.newcityforthewest.com/

mike65

Thats the sucker, boy what a load of old tosh! It caused quite a few giggles at the time. I'd forgotten some of its finer points.

Mike.

nesf

JackieChan wrote:

I think this is the chestnut your thinking of

http://www.newcityforthewest.com/

A Minister for the West? :eek:

Maskhadov

what would cork need to grow by in order to make it a proper city ? would 750,000 in the city limits make it a proper city ?

nesf

Maskhadov wrote:

what would cork need to grow by in order to make it a proper city ? would 750,000 in the city limits make it a proper city ?

It depends on your definition of proper city. I think the one that's floating about at the moment comes from the idea that certain industries can only really flourish in cities of 1 million plus people (which isn't very far from the truth). It's not so much about what is and isn't a city, i.e. Cork, Galway, Dublin etc are all cities, it's about remaining competitive internationally and for that we do need at least one large urban centre that can support certain high level industries, such as ones in the financial sector.

Ideally, we need to take a look at Dublin and figure what industries we can safely move out of it into other areas of the country without degrading its ability to compete in certain high level sectors. Having all kinds of industry focussed there isn't a good thing for the country and Dublin itself. We need the other cities to balance Dublin but that doesn't mean we want the other cities to become other Dublins.


As for decentralisation, it can work (look at the CSO in Cork for instance) you just need to be sensible about it. You can't ask a middle aged Dublin employee with a family to just pull up sticks and move to some out of the way rural area on the other side of the country. Apart from a minority, I can't see (and can understand) why most of the civil service employees wouldn't leave Dublin and it's services etc for areas that sorely lack them.

MLM

nesf wrote:

It depends on your definition of proper city. I think the one that's floating about at the moment comes from the idea that certain industries can only really flourish in cities of 1 million plus people (which isn't very far from the truth). It's not so much about what is and isn't a city, i.e. Cork, Galway, Dublin etc are all cities, it's about remaining competitive internationally and for that we do need at least one large urban centre that can support certain high level industries, such as ones in the financial sector.

Believe it or not, the Greater Cork Area has the third largest concentration of chemical and pharmacutical industry in the world. There is nothing in Dublin that can compare to this. The majority of industries can flourish anywhere. What keeps investment flowing into Dublin is not it's location or population, but the fact that it has powerful well-connected politicians/civil servants who are more than willing to help various wealthy individuals make quick and easy money. Ireland's regional cities simply do not have the political clout to insure a more even spread of investment. Unfortunately that is the reality in this country, that infrastructural and developmental decisions are made to satisfy the the aspirations of a small elite.
The best and potentially most successful locations for economic development in this country, when looked at from a global perspective, would be Cork, Waterford, and Limerick. Dublin is actually very poorly located, it being a further 200 miles further away from global trade routes. It also has a seaport which has been obsolete for the past forty years. The other three cities have underdeveloped deep water ports, and are just off the main shipping channel between Europe and the rest of the world.
Dublin could best be developed as a tourism and administrative centre, and still grow at a manageable and sustainable pace. Other activities should then be concentrated elsewhere in two or three locations to develop a critical mass.

Schuhart

MLM wrote:

What keeps investment flowing into Dublin is not it's location or population, but the fact that it has powerful well-connected politicians/civil servants who are more than willing to help various wealthy individuals make quick and easy money.

Was there a conspiracy theories forum at one stage? If not, I think you might find a more focussed discussion of your point in the Sci-Fi and Fantasy forum.

Irish people who can't accept Dublin's growth haven't got over their attachment to London.

MLM

Schuhart wrote:

Was there a conspiracy theories forum at one stage? If not, I think you might find a more focussed discussion of your point in the Sci-Fi and Fantasy forum.

Irish people who can't accept Dublin's growth haven't got over their attachment to London.

Not a conspiracy theory. Some people refer to it as good business practice. And after reading an article in Yesterday's Sunday Times' "Culture", about how difficult it is to investigate business/political dynasties in this country without being put out to pasture, I reckon what I have suggested is just the tip of the iceberg.

nesf

MLM wrote:

Believe it or not, the Greater Cork Area has the third largest concentration of chemical and pharmacutical industry in the world. There is nothing in Dublin that can compare to this. The majority of industries can flourish anywhere. What keeps investment flowing into Dublin is not it's location or population, but the fact that it has powerful well-connected politicians/civil servants who are more than willing to help various wealthy individuals make quick and easy money. Ireland's regional cities simply do not have the political clout to insure a more even spread of investment. Unfortunately that is the reality in this country, that infrastructural and developmental decisions are made to satisfy the the aspirations of a small elite.
The best and potentially most successful locations for economic development in this country, when looked at from a global perspective, would be Cork, Waterford, and Limerick. Dublin is actually very poorly located, it being a further 200 miles further away from global trade routes. It also has a seaport which has been obsolete for the past forty years. The other three cities have underdeveloped deep water ports, and are just off the main shipping channel between Europe and the rest of the world.
Dublin could best be developed as a tourism and administrative centre, and still grow at a manageable and sustainable pace. Other activities should then be concentrated elsewhere in two or three locations to develop a critical mass.

You misunderstand my point, I wasn't saying that Cork can't support industries or Galway for that matter, only that certain industries tend to need a large urban area to support them for some reason. The financial sector is one example. These are also generally industries that don't need seaports etc. I wasn't saying that Cork can't have a strong chemical industry etc. That certain industries will be tied to Dublin isn't a problem for the other cities in Ireland but just the reality for some industries. It doesn't mean that Cork can't be a centre for other industries, etc.

Schuhart

MLM wrote:

Not a conspiracy theory.

Unfortunately, you then follow this up with

MLM wrote:

And after reading an article in Yesterday's Sunday Times' "Culture", about how difficult it is to investigate business/political dynasties in this country without being put out to pasture, I reckon what I have suggested is just the tip of the iceberg.

See any contradiction there? (I'm just making the judgement as to whether I should just ignore any future posts you make, and your answer to this question will help me enormously).

MLM

Schuhart wrote:

Unfortunately, you then follow this up withSee any contradiction there? (I'm just making the judgement as to whether I should just ignore any future posts you make, and your answer to this question will help me enormously).

Starting to go off topic here. Perhaps this issue can be discussed in a separate thread?

Slice

Historically speaking Kilkenny is a city - there's no reason why it should be deprived of the title just to conform to today's sensibilities. People will be able to tell the difference between such a historic city and what constitutes a city by today's definitions. Kilkenny is marketed as a historic city in the same way Bath, Oxford or Cambridge are and it works well for them. No one one's going to start arguing for these places to get their own metros or skyscrapers by confusing the two definitions.

Also, in relation to Northern Ireland the number of cities up there has more to do with sectarian divisions and the UK Government's fear of being seen to favor one side over another; hence Newry and Lisburn getting city status, or Derry and Coleraine for that matter.

unkel

Lucan is a village (and rightly so) in the commuterbelt of the city of Dublin

Lucan has a bigger population than most cities on this island! Apart from Dublin and Belfast, all other cities here are no more than provincial towns at best if you're comparing with continental Europe on population size

fricatus

unkel wrote:

Lucan has a bigger population than most cities on this island!

Typical Dublin hyperbole and completely inaccurate.

Lucan is bigger than maybe three out of the 10 other cities on the island (or bigger than one of the other five in the Republic). In fairness to you, the media (particularly RTE and the Indo) play up Dublin's size vis-a-vis the rest of the country so much, that it's not surprising you wrote what you did.

For example: the figure of 2 million that's always trotted out for Dublin by the media, when the population of the entire city and county of Dublin at the last census was 1,187,176. They're literally inventing 812,824 people!

These are the facts though:


http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/census2006_volume_1_pop_classified_by_area.pdf

On page 23:

Lucan-Esker 20,776
Lucan Heights 5,673
Lucan-St. Helen's 6,823
TOTAL 33,272


Republic of Ireland:

http://beyond2020.cso.ie/Census/TableViewer/tableView.aspx?ReportId=1770

Cork 190,384
Limerick 90,757
Galway 72,729
Waterford 49,213
Kilkenny 22,179


It's harder to find figures on Northern Ireland, but the cities appear to have the following approximate populations:

Armagh: 14,000
Belfast: 277,459 (580,000 Greater Belfast)
Derry: 84,000 (90,000 Greater Derry)
Lisburn: 71,000
Newry: 27,000