Anybody prefer palm strikes for self defense ?

Scramble

My few cents.

What makes a good striker seems to me to be all the rounds of hard training on the pads etc. and then putting it into sparring with someone trying to hit you back. Whether the hand that hits you is open or closed is less important than whether the guys has good body mechanics, footwork, accuracy, how many shots he can string together, defensive skills, timing, sense of distance and all that stuff. And we know people get all these characteristics from training to strike like a boxer, muay thai fighter etc.

I think if someone wants to hit solely with their open hand and never punch then that's fine, as long as they put the work into the delivery system.

yomchi

Scramble wrote:

My few cents.

What makes a good striker seems to me to be all the rounds of hard training on the pads etc. and then putting it into sparring with someone trying to hit you back. Whether the hand that hits you is open or closed is less important than whether the guys has good body mechanics, footwork, accuracy, how many shots he can string together, defensive skills, timing, sense of distance and all that stuff. And we know people get all these characteristics from training to strike like a boxer, muay thai fighter etc.

I think if someone wants to hit solely with their open hand and never punch then that's fine, as long as they put the work into the delivery system.

Spot on. Without understanding body mechanics the rest is futile.

Roper

Scramble/Jon,

The point Scramble's made there is what I was trying to say earlier.

By the way, its a damn good thing Jon and Nothingcompares didn't turn up at my place yesterday morning as we weren't there. Sunday morning MMA is off for the month as I'm elsewhere training on Sundays. Back in February, at which point you're both welcome down to TRAIN on Sundays, as opposed to organising a blind date in which you do what you feel like. Are you any good of a pad man Jon?

Barry

yomchi

Roper wrote:

Scramble/Jon,

The point Scramble's made there is what I was trying to say earlier.

By the way, its a damn good thing Jon and Nothingcompares didn't turn up at my place yesterday morning as we weren't there. Sunday morning MMA is off for the month as I'm elsewhere training on Sundays. Back in February, at which point you're both welcome down to TRAIN on Sundays, as opposed to organising a blind date in which you do what you feel like. Are you any good of a pad man Jon?

Barry

In my humble defence.. I asked the guy to my place. He 'organised' your place, to which I politely declined, I was bearing in mind the fact that you were not here at the time.

Um no not really a good pad man. I work with the beginners really, teaching them the basic mechanics of the delivery. I offered NothingC because he was asking how to throw a hook punch not long back, thats all. Mind you I've worked with a few intermediate and provincial champs and they've said im not bad!

Nothingcompares

yep that was 100% my fault sorry lads . Where you training sundays these days roper?

Roper

No problem Jon, I noticed that. I'm just not to keen on people making assumptions, we have a class structure and anything that interferes with that can be irritating, I'm sure as an instructor you appreciate that. I do organise things to bring people together and exchange ideas from time to time, when I have time or a free space in the hall, maybe you could pop down to the next one of those I think I may have one in late February or March. In any case it was no bother as it came to nothing anyway!

Padding is harder than punching IMO!

Roper

Training in SBGN.

Nothingcompares

Things coming along well for February?

Roper

Going better than well, thanks for asking.

yomchi

Roper wrote:

No problem Jon, I noticed that. I'm just not to keen on people making assumptions, we have a class structure and anything that interferes with that can be irritating, I'm sure as an instructor you appreciate that. I do organise things to bring people together and exchange ideas from time to time, when I have time or a free space in the hall, maybe you could pop down to the next one of those I think I may have one in late February or March. In any case it was no bother as it came to nothing anyway!

Padding is harder than punching IMO!

I certainly can appreciate it. No probs popping down some time in the future Bar, Im always up for an exchange of ideas!

Feeding pads is an art in itself IMO! You gotta keep in mind the combo, and keep an eye on the form of the puncher, meeting every punch with proper resistance, throwing in counters to keep them on their toes etc etc.. you'd get tired thinking about it!

pma-ire

Seeing as we are putting some personal experiences about the subject. I may as well throw mine in the pot!!

All through my training in martial arts I was told that hitting a face with a closed fist even with conditioned hands was a sure way to break your knuckles!

So I done all the push ups I could on "all" my knuckles. I hit everything bare handed, and got to the point where I could give anything a good whack without hurting myself!!

On the way back from HKD to my appartment (which was behind the MA shop I ran with a friend at the time), myself and the guy that dropped me home were parked across the quay from the shop. When this van pulls up to the window and a guy gets out who continued to wee against the railings we had up on them.

I shouted over to him if he would mind not weeing on my shop window!! He got back into his van drove over the bridge and stopped next to us to give me a hiding. Now I know that I may have been a bit silly to have shouted at him and I know I caused the situation to occur! But I was proud of the place and while I knew he was gonna start on me I did not want to hurt him!!

So now I've given you the back story...

He did hit me first! I threw a combo of a few kicks to bring him down to my height, and then threw two punches with my lower knuckles (as Millionare has spoken about) so that the punches would not hurt him as much. They still hit hard and I thought I'd hurt my hands. But not a bit! Infact it felt like I'd hit through paper??

On palm strikes!!!

A firnd of mine used to (and may well still do) do doorwork in Cork. He told me of a time he was faced with a situation where he had to strike out at a guy and used his heel palm instead of his fist (as his buddy had broken his hand the week before in the same act!). He ended up with one of two of the guys teeth stuck in his palm. Which sent him to the A&E for longer than the guy he hit!!

Remmy

Thanks for all the replies guys

So the general consensis im getting is that you can damage your hand punching and palm striking but it is more common with bare knuckle punching .

Well yesterday I was pounding the bag at home for about 2 hours bareknuckle to see if there was any ill effects .There is cuts on my middle knuckle on each hand and the hands are slightly swollen but other than that there fine .I also tried palm striking it for a while but i found that I felt the shock through my wrists alot more than with punching .

Also is it normal for ones hands to shake after afterwards or am i overdoing it ?

Thanks
Bob

SorGan

Remmy wrote:

Thanks for all the replies guys

So the general consensis im getting is that you can damage your hand punching and palm striking but it is more common with bare knuckle punching .

Well yesterday I was pounding the bag at home for about 2 hours bareknuckle to see if there was any ill effects .There is cuts on my middle knuckle on each hand and the hands are slightly swollen but other than that there fine .I also tried palm striking it for a while but i found that I felt the shock through my wrists alot more than with punching .

Also is it normal for ones hands to shake after afterwards or am i overdoing it ?

Thanks
Bob

Are they shaking with "the fury?":D
my hands tend to throb a bit after bag work..

pma-ire

Remmy wrote:

Well yesterday I was pounding the bag at home for about 2 hours bareknuckle to see if there was any ill effects .There is cuts on my middle knuckle on each hand and the hands are slightly swollen but other than that there fine .I also tried palm striking it for a while but i found that I felt the shock through my wrists alot more than with punching .

Also is it normal for ones hands to shake after afterwards or am i overdoing it ?

Thanks
Bob

Build up your strikes Bob. No need to pound away like a loon from the get go!!

One thing you have to think about is the pain you may get down the road. I'm only 31, and I'm getting artritic pains in my fingers and knuckles already!! So it's up to you if you think it's worth it!!

Many times I bashed my hands in the same way man! But I knew that some day it would catch up with me!!

FiannaGym.com

On the subject of damaged hands... After my fight with palm shots my palms were wrecked, I also counted myself lucky that I didn't catch my fingures on his guard and break or tear anything.

Peace

Baggio...

Remmy wrote:

Well yesterday I was pounding the bag at home for about 2 hours bareknuckle to see if there was any ill effects.

Remember punch bags are generally pretty soft - so you can punch away at them all day. Bone is harder, and you will definitely feel a huge difference to you ever strike a cranium for real - after all it was designed to protect the brain, and is a fairly resilient shape and structure.

The old test is, would you rather punch a wall or strike it with you heel of hand - I know which I rather do....

Also if you were unlucky to damage your finger in the dynamics of combat it wont affect your fighting ability. After all you hitting with the heel of hand not your fingers. If you bust your knuckle, your a one handed fighter and at a HUGE disadvantage.

Taiwan-Evo

Didn't Mike Tyson even break his hand hitting that other boxer on the street? A long time ago. :rolleyes:

Baggio...

Taiwan-Evo wrote:

Didn't Mike Tyson even break his hand hitting that other boxer on the street? A long time ago. :rolleyes:

Certainly did...

In fact quite a few of the world famous boxers have broken their hands and knuckles at some point in their career. I'm not saying that it always happens, but it's something to bear in mind if you don't spend a lot of time conditioning your hands (but you can still break 'em regardless).

yomchi

Works a treat everytime!

http://www.filecabi.net/video/trueromslap.html

The subtle differences between the palm strike and the 'clatter'

Taiwan-Evo

Jon wrote:

Works a treat everytime!

http://www.filecabi.net/video/trueromslap.html

The subtle differences between the palm strike and the 'clatter'

That was funny:D The guys reaction was great! LMAO

Jimkel

Palm strikes, effective, yes, as devastating as punches, maybe, but in a different way.

Palm strikes use a larger surface area then a standard top two knuckles punch, therefore the impact is spread,and less damage done.

Altough good for follow ups such as ripping or tearing, the palm is padded, a softer weapon.

The knuckles however are not, and after conditioning the knuckles develop a callus, the bones wear down and the bone matter is replaced by denser Calcium, A fighter with years of conditioning generally has knuckles like knives.

Knuckles have more potential for accuracy, having a smaller surface area then a palm, and are more versatile, different types of closed fist and knuckle attacks can be targeted at vunerable points, anywhere on the body.

Palm shots have a tendancy to arc up as the punch is thrown, so the chances of getting a palm full of teeth are high. I know styles like kenpo use palms alot, as a good strike to the nose, But to me its risky, what if the opponents head snaps back and he opens his mouth while your palmshotting? Palm + speed+ teeth = ouch!

What if your fighting an experienced grappler? your giving your wrist to him on a platter to be broken.

Put it this way if your going for a KO its a bare knuckle punch thats gonna get the job done.

As far as I'm concerned I would only use a palmshot in self defence if it somehow was strictly necessary, to me they are like fancy flying kicks , unnecessary except in the rarest of situations.

But if your more comfortable palmshotting then punching be my guest, I just wont be using them anytime soon.

Jimkel

Baggio... wrote:

The old test is, would you rather punch a wall or strike it with you heel of hand - I know which I rather do....

Punching a skull is very different to punching a wall, the head is not fixed in place, unless their head is against a wall while you hit it your not going to feel the full resistance of a skull. the danger involved in knuckle punching is incorrect technique, not what your hitting.( Unless of course your hitting something stupid, like an iron gate)

Palm attacks require an unnatural twist of the arm, and in a palm shot position the arm is very easy to break, ask any advanced Jujitsu student, they would take that arm and snap it.

People seem to think that self defence, if done correctly wont hurt the defender. the idea is not to loose to the assailant, and pain comes into that all too often for both involved. Id rather punch, at least youll hurt him more that way, and thats the reality of street self defence. Both people will usually get hurt in some way, just make sure the attacker gets the worst of it. If you end up in hospital with a messed up wrist or knuckle after coming out on top, at least your not there with a knife sticking out of you, and if a few of his teeth are lodged in your hand, its his loss!

yomchi

Palm strikes use a larger surface area then a standard top two knuckles punch, therefore the impact is spread,and less damage done.

Hi Jim,

Damage to what?
Smaller surface area more damage to the out area of the face busted lip etc.
Larger surface area, more ballistic impact and more shaking of the brain resulting in disorientation.

Smaller surface area = larger chance of a miss as the cognitive brain is by passed the during arenal dump.
Smaller surface area = higher risk of damage to striking tool.

Palm attacks require an unnatural twist of the arm, and in a palm shot position the arm is very easy to break, ask any advanced Jujitsu student, they would take that arm and snap it

Not in any palm shot that I know is there a unnatural twist of the arm. People seem to think a striaght palm is the only open hand shot were talking about here?

Id rather punch, at least youll hurt him more that way, and thats the reality of street self defence. Both people will usually get hurt in some way, just make sure the attacker gets the worst of it. If you end up in hospital with a messed up wrist or knuckle after coming out on top, at least your not there with a knife sticking out of you, and if a few of his teeth are lodged in your hand, its his loss!

I take it you say you'll hurt him more that way - as being relative to your own preferences. Or are you telling me/us that you have to punch in order to hurt the guy more that open hand strikes - if so you are misinformed.

Are you also saying that if you punch a guy with a knife, the chances are you're not going to get stabbed?
Forgive me Jim, but I find your response is based on hyperbole with no real grasp of real street self defence to use your term

That of course is just my take on it Jim.

regards
Jon

Millionaire

Some people say its all about Testing under live conditions....

well I tested successfully (thank God) both Fist and Plam shots under live consitions (as in real life street fights).... and I d go with the palm shot as being much more effective, to point of immediate KO on an attacker.

However I can do both, and I train both. Open handed power slaps are awesome too.

Millionaire

Some people say its all about Testing under live conditions....

well I tested successfully (thank God) both Fist and Plam shots under live consitions (as in real life street fights).... and I d go with the palm shot as being much more effective, to point of immediate KO on an attacker.

However I can do both, and I train both. Open handed power slaps are awesome too.

Jimkel

Jon wrote:

Damage to what?
Smaller surface area more damage to the out area of the face busted lip etc.
Larger surface area, more ballistic impact and more shaking of the brain resulting in disorientation.

Smaller surface area = larger chance of a miss as the cognitive brain is by passed the during arenal dump.
Smaller surface area = higher risk of damage to striking tool.
Jon

My personal belief is that more power impacted on a smaller area causes more truama to that area. the palm spreads the impact over a larger area, therefore less focus of force.

like snow shoes spreading the weight of the wearer so he doesnt sink in the snow.

Would you rather poke someone in the head with a stick, or slap them with a fish!! a slap stings, can rip or cut but a fist is like a rock to the scull.

Jon wrote:

Not in any palm shot that I know is there a unnatural twist of the arm. People seem to think a striaght palm is the only open hand shot were talking about here?

Jon

Ok ill admit there are other palm strikes. Here I was speaking of the standard Karate palm shot as seen in Kenpo. Like the Reverse punch.

Jon wrote:

I take it you say you'll hurt him more that way - as being relative to your own preferences. Or are you telling me/us that you have to punch in order to hurt the guy more that open hand strikes - if so you are misinformed.
Jon

Yes im saying that and believe it in most cases. This is my own idea so i'm not misinformed.

Jon wrote:

Are you also saying that if you punch a guy with a knife, the chances are you're not going to get stabbed?
Forgive me Jim, but I find your response is based on hyperbole with no real grasp of real street self defence to use your term
Jon

Now im confused, I did not suggest that. I stated that in the harsh reality of real fights, and yes I am very experienced coming from a rough area, That I would rather Hurt him more then he hurts me, And if I had one shot It would be a punch.

Jon wrote:

Smaller surface area = larger chance of a miss as the cognitive brain is by passed the during arenal dump.
Jon

Now Im a clever guy, but that sentance above makes no sense to me.
larger chance of a miss with the punch?? because the cognative Brain, which i assume you mean the internal structures and representations
used in cognition between stimulus and response is bypassed???? by punching????? If you wanna sound clever start by making sense.

so your an armchair martial artist and Psychologist eh?

Regards
Jim

yomchi

My personal belief is that more power impacted on a smaller area causes more truama to that area. the palm spreads the impact over a larger area, therefore less focus of force.

like snow shoes spreading the weight of the wearer so he doesnt sink in the snow.

Would you rather poke someone in the head with a stick, or slap them with a fish!! a slap stings, can rip or cut but a fist is like a rock to the scull

Hi Jim,
May I make a bold assumption and assume you have a Taekwon-Do background? Your theory is very like the 'Theory Of Power' as outlined in the TKD encyclopedia.
UNfortunately though its not as straight forward as that. If I wanted to cause bleeding to the outer skin region I would definitely want to poke them with a stick - no doubt. If I wanted to cause trauma to the brain and aim for a knock out or at least disorientation - I swing that fish with all I've got! which would be similar to either the cupped handslap aimed across the ear, open hand palm shot to the head or hammer fist down onto the chin - depending on my line of sight.
I think you'll find that the skull is like a rock to the fist.

Here I was speaking of the standard Karate palm shot as seen in Kenpo

Agggghhhhhh!!!! No no not like any Kenpo delivery system. See here in lies a valuable point. The strikes I and others here talk about are similar to that of the teachings of Fairbairn, Sykes, McCann and the newer generation Combative instructors - Not the strikes or more importantly its delivery systems and styles of training from that of any of the Linear psuedo chinese/Japanese arts.

Yes im saying that and believe it in most cases. This is my own idea so i'm not misinformed

Thats fine, if your happy with that keep doing it!

Now im confused, I did not suggest that. I stated that in the harsh reality of real fights, and yes I am very experienced coming from a rough area, That I would rather Hurt him more then he hurts me, And if I had one shot It would be a punch

You wrote:

If you end up in hospital with a messed up wrist or knuckle after coming out on top, at least your not there with a knife sticking out of you

It sounds like you were describing a punch up with someone with a knife...?

Now Im a clever guy, but that sentance above makes no sense to me.
larger chance of a miss with the punch?? because the cognative Brain, which i assume you mean the internal structures and representations
used in cognition between stimulus and response is bypassed???? by punching????? If you wanna sound clever start by making sense.

so your an armchair martial artist and Psychologist eh?

Well I was responding to yourposts as I read it, and I didn't see your smart arse comment at the end until now. Which now makes me even wonder why I bothered.
You quite obviously have no knowledge of the 'Fight or Flight' reaction and the effect on the Brain that this has.
Why don't you go look it up.

a slap stings, can rip or cut but a fist is like a rock to the scull

Actually I think you've out done yourself with this comment

Mick Coup

I haven't on this board for a while but have been following this thread with interest since it's beginning.

The whole palm vs fist thing is a common debate, over on another forum I moderate on it gets plenty of attention, and others I've seen also.

As with everything there are pros and cons to both hand formations, and I've had success with both, and failures too - so I can write from a fairly empirical base.

Those that argue for the palm will always cite the extra durability it possesses over the fist, and this can't really be disputed from a physiological point of view. The palm heel is much more resistant to injury than the fist, and the wrist is also removed from the process of delivering impact so there is potentially less to fail/collapse upon contact and therefore cause a 'back-fire' injury and subsequent reduction of transmitted force.

Breaking a wrist 'on the street' massively reduces your capability - not too bad if there was only one assailant and you managed to bang a whole load of sleep into him right away, but disastrous if his mates want some action, and/or at some point a knife comes out and you need both hands.

Law enforcement applications often require use of force, followed by employment of fine and complex motor skills - handcuffing, weapon manipulation etc - but the same can be said for civilians too, having to get keys into a lock in a hurry, drive a vehicle to safety etc can all be considered valid points best done without bones poking out of your hands!

When striking the head, for that all-important KO, the smaller contact surface-area afforded by the fist is irrellevant - unconsciousness via cerebal trauma is the result of hyper-displacement and/or hyper-rotation of the cranium, not penetration. The profile of the head is obviously convex, but so is the fist - this doesn't lend itself to easy purchase in order to transmit the necessary force to displace the head as required- glancing blows are common, however the palm, using the heel of the hand as the point of contact, has a concave profile - a perfect fit, with a great degree of redundancy built in for slightly 'off' strikes.

Arguing for the fist always gets around to the way it fits through and into gaps far better than the open hand - the palm strike is a whole lot bigger and can get snagged more easily on the way in, plus you get about 3" of extra reach when using a fist - very useful on occasion. As has been mentioned many times, the smaller harder surface-area delivers extremely penetrating force, and when striking softer target areas - such as the body - the difference is apparent and dramatically increased.

Using the fist against the skull is ill-advised, but obviously to the jaw it is extremley effective, as huge amounts of knuckle-shattering power are not required to cause the massive and immediate rotation that results in a KO - the jaw acting in this instance as a 'handle' producing huge leverage. This can also be done with the open hand obviously, so long as the chin isn't tucked down - whereas the fist can still do the job if it is.

These precise shots to the jaw area are tricky - especially mid-fight - when the stakes are a fair bit higher than the ring or cage - but the head as a whole is always on offer, but hitting 'centre-mass' with the fist is courting injury, unlike with the open hand.

In conclusion, for 'tactical' reasons I would recommend the open hand, for many of the points stated above are to maintain functional ability for other circumstances yet to unfold. There are numerous technical reasons for using the palm heel also, but the same can be said for the fist.

Personally I employ a soft-to-hard, hard-to-soft rule - if I'm hitting a hard target I'll try to employ a 'soft' tool such as the palm heel, but if I'm hitting something soft I'll utilise a 'hard' tool - like the fist.

Hope that makes a little sense - ultimately I'll be as objective as possible, however personal preferences always need their say!

Mick

Jimkel

Mick Coup wrote:

I haven't on this board for a while but have been following this thread with interest since it's beginning.

The whole palm vs fist thing is a common debate, over on another forum I moderate .....................

Mick

You know what Mick, you really made alot of sense in that post which has caused me to rethink the usefulness of the palm. Your Writing style is very clear and concise and it made me think of what I may have lost since Beginning Shotokan training.

Altough I have gained much I cannot completly forsake Weapons like the palm in favour of punches simply because I haven't found much use for them, That reflects my own ability, not the usefulness of the palm. I still favour the punch, because its what I'm good at, In fact overall It's Gotta be low aimed kicks and sweeps:D , but thats a different Thread.

Fair play to ya!
Jim

Jimkel

Jon wrote:

Well I was responding to yourposts as I read it, and I didn't see your smart arse comment at the end until now. Which now makes me even wonder why I bothered.
You quite obviously have no knowledge of the 'Fight or Flight' reaction and the effect on the Brain that this has.
Why don't you go look it up.

Your right it was a bit smart aresed and I do apologise for the antagonism.

I am familure with the "Fight or Flight" Mechanism, I study Psychology. I just found your words a little muddled and confusing the first time round, wasnt sure what you were getting at and tought you were just trying to "wheel in the big words" for effect, as Im sure you have experienced people doing before on forums.

As far as the "knife" statement, it was really just a figure of speach. I didnt post for all to agree. I like to debate martial arts in an effort to hopefully learn something from others reactions and comments.

I'll give you the benifit of the doubt in that your right about the whole "Fight or flight thing" you just didnt say it clearly, you may notice some spelling and grammer errors in your first reply to me.I must stress that I am not picking at your grammer, I'm far from perfect in this department, but it muddled the final point a little.

As far as TKD goes I have never studied it, I come from a backround of real self defence, rough area/school etc up untill the age of 19, which was thankfully my last real fight. During this I time I decided to get some training I studied Kenpo, Wing Tsun and Judo and finally settled in JKA Shotokan Karate.

So as you can probably see from my training The palm does not feature much in my style, Therefore I questioned its usefulness, Yes I am only Human. Well lets not fall out over it;)

regards
Jim