Anybody prefer palm strikes for self defense ?

Remmy

Hi guys .:)
Recently I read a good few articles that said skull versus fist and skull always wins .So I'm going to concentrate on palm strikes instead.I copied an interesting excerpt below which is green .


When knuckles meet skull during a confrontation, the skull will always win. I don't think anyone will argue that former heavyweight Champ Mike Tyson is an accomplished puncher. When Mr. Tyson punched former Heavyweight contender Mitch Green on the head, Tyson's hand broke. Neither man wore gloves for the bout. The fight took place on a Harlem street corner. You can see why boxers pay someone good money to tape their hands.

Another serious health related problem we have to consider is cutting the knuckles on the perpetrator's teeth. Punches are usually directed to the head area including the face. The mouth is something you definitely want to avoid. However the teeth may be struck inadvertently. "Everyone you encounter violently has AIDS, until proven otherwise, humans have the most infectious mouths, once you break skin you are introducing all those germs to your body", says Dr. Prattas. "The heel of the palm making impact with the mouth distributes contact area equally making it difficult to break skin if the teeth are struck. With a punch, one knuckle may hit the teeth, breaking skin easily."

"The skin on the dorsal side (top of the hand) is easily cut because it is very thin. The opposite is true of the skin on the palm.

When you open your hand from a fist tendons pull back. If the knuckles are cut when a full taut fist strikes teeth the act of opening the hand pulls bacteria in. Serious infection can set in 24-48 hours later".

This makes good sense to me so I'm going to be concentrating on palm strikes for self defense training .Anybody else think the same ?

So is there any disadvantage to palm strikes ?

Thanks
Bob

SorGan

Remmy wrote:

Hi guys .:)
Recently I read a good few articles that said skull versus fist and skull always wins .So I'm going to concentrate on palm strikes instead.I copied an interesting excerpt below which is green .


When knuckles meet skull during a confrontation, the skull will always win. I don't think anyone will argue that former heavyweight Champ Mike Tyson is an accomplished puncher. When Mr. Tyson punched former Heavyweight contender Mitch Green on the head, Tyson's hand broke. Neither man wore gloves for the bout. The fight took place on a Harlem street corner. You can see why boxers pay someone good money to tape their hands.

Another serious health related problem we have to consider is cutting the knuckles on the perpetrator's teeth. Punches are usually directed to the head area including the face. The mouth is something you definitely want to avoid. However the teeth may be struck inadvertently. "Everyone you encounter violently has AIDS, until proven otherwise, humans have the most infectious mouths, once you break skin you are introducing all those germs to your body", says Dr. Prattas. "The heel of the palm making impact with the mouth distributes contact area equally making it difficult to break skin if the teeth are struck. With a punch, one knuckle may hit the teeth, breaking skin easily."

"The skin on the dorsal side (top of the hand) is easily cut because it is very thin. The opposite is true of the skin on the palm.

When you open your hand from a fist tendons pull back. If the knuckles are cut when a full taut fist strikes teeth the act of opening the hand pulls bacteria in. Serious infection can set in 24-48 hours later".

This makes good sense to me so I'm going to be concentrating on palm strikes for self defense training .Anybody else think the same ?

So is there any disadvantage to palm strikes ?

Thanks
Bob

yep, its by no means a new concept, but for straight shots to the head palms are king, closed fist hooks for face and bod.

Nothingcompares

So I'm going to concentrate on palm strikes instead

How are you going to concentrate on palm strikes as a matter of interest? What do you currently train in and what will you change with the introduction of palm strikes?

I think the Mike Tyson anecdote isn't something that needs to be taken into consideration. Mike Tyson is one of the strongest punchers on the planet and I presume he punched with perfect technique but I don't think joe bloggs has to worry about that same kind of force on his wrist.

Everyone you encounter violently has AIDS

Even if this was so, which it certainly isn't. You would very unlikely to pick up any infection by punching someone in the face, with the palm of your hand or with your fist. Any infection you do pick up, would easily be treated with antibiotics.

So is there any disadvantage to palm strikes ?

you can't hit as effectively with palm strikes. Try it, do focus mitt training, palm strikes versus fist. It's ok to hook but straight punches and uppercuts are much more difficult to perform. I don't think you can hit as hard or with the same manoeuvrability as with a fist strike.

yomchi

A guy I trained with from Canada punched a guy in the mouth he got infected from Gangerine and came close to losing his hand to amputation.
OPen hand strikes are probably easier to deliver without the hazard of closed fists.

but I don't think joe bloggs has to worry about that same kind of force on his wrist

It was his hand he broke, the power is proportional to each striker, whether it be joe bloggs or mike tyson.

I think the Mike Tyson anecdote isn't something that needs to be taken into consideration. Mike Tyson is one of the strongest punchers on the planet

Perfect example then. Strongest puncher on the planet, and he still broke his hand. It wasn't an anecdote, it actually happened.

Even if this was so, which it certainly isn't. You would very unlikely to pick up any infection by punching someone in the face, with the palm of your hand or with your fist. Any infection you do pick up, would easily be treated with antibiotics

Like I said, a punch in the mouth ended up with my friend losing the use of his hand for 8 months and nearly had it amputated. Millions upon millions of nasty bugs and bacteria reside in the human mouth.

you can't hit as effectively with palm strikes

Are you for real here?

I don't think you can hit as hard or with the same manoeuvrability as with a fist strike

You should train with peter consterdine, he'd open your eyes up to open hand strikes Its not the tool you hit with that causes the damage, its the power and speed its thrown at. Whether it be a closed or open hand the power is the same if you understand the mechanics of striking properly.
OPen hand strikes are easier to teach people for self defence who have no knowledge of making a proper fist. You could spend hours upon hours teaching someone to form a proper fist, and only then can the person learn to punch scientifically. For self defence open strikes are the way to go.

Nothingcompares

Wow, that's weird. So he punched a guy in the face? Cut his mouth on the guys teeth? The guys mouth, or the immediate environment contained deadly bacteria which infected the wound. In conjunction, blood flow around this part of his hand was impeded and he got gangrene. Who would have thunk it? I would have went to the doctor if my hand started going green after giving some dirt bag a thump.

Don't want to sound like a broken record but why don't people hit with palm strikes more often in the UFC if they offer the same effect in a attack as a fist but don't risk injury?

Baggio...

For street defense palm strikes are the best way to go.

1)You are not going to damage you hands (unlike punching, unless your hands are highly conditioned and even then it can still happen).

2)Palms fit very nicely into the skull and is less likely to glance off.

3) A punch is just a punch - where with a palm you can follow up with fingers into the eyes, crushing, ripping, grabbing, etc. Give you much more options.

4) You can hit in a 360 degrees using your "edge of hand".

5) Specific Targeting: you can poke the eyes, chop the throat, etc. Much harder to do with a punch especially a target like the eyes (not that you should be doing those type of dirty tactics unless you have no other option)

6) On contact your punch can buckle at the joint - which can lead to power loss, that wont happen with a palm shot.

Most of the RBSD guys would use open hand strikes (to the highline targets anyway).

Bagg.

yomchi

Nothingcompares wrote:

Wow, that's weird. So he punched a guy in the face? Cut his mouth on the guys teeth? The guys mouth, or the immediate environment contained deadly bacteria which infected the wound. In conjunction, blood flow around this part of his hand was impeded and he got gangrene. Who would have thunk it? I would have went to the doctor if my hand started going green after giving some dirt bag a thump.

Don't want to sound like a broken record but why don't people hit with palm strikes more often in the UFC if they offer the same effect in a attack as a fist but don't risk injury?

One of the guys teeth got stuck in his hand. And he cut his hand on the guys mouth, not his mouth on the guys teeth.

Christ man, why are you comparing UFC to self defence? UFC is not street fighting. It has rules. The rules are no open hand strikes.

henryb

To deliver effective punches in order to knock somebody out
it has to be closed fist every time. Palm strike to the nose can
be very effective , but i dont think it has the same effect as a punch.
Dont forget elbow strikes can be devestating.

Baggio...

Nothingcompares wrote:

you can't hit as effectively with palm strikes. Try it, do focus mitt training, palm strikes versus fist.

Jasus... It's every bit as effective. What stuff are you looking at??? Just because you can't make it work does not mean that we can't.

Just look at guys like:
John Skillen, Lee Morrison, Bob Spour, Carl Cestari, Nick Hughes, Jim Grover.

These guys hit like freight trains....

Baggio...

henryb wrote:

To deliver effective punches in order to knock somebody out
it has to be closed fist every time.

On what evidence are you basing that on? I don't agree...

I think some of those veteran doorman could easily prove you wrong.

yomchi

henryb wrote:

To deliver effective punches in order to knock somebody out
it has to be closed fist every time. Palm strike to the nose can
be very effective , but i dont think it has the same effect as a punch.
Dont forget elbow strikes can be devestating.

one final thought before I hit the sack.
Again its the power and speed that knock the guy out, not the shape of the hand. The impact whether it be closed fist or open hand that causes ballistic impact on the brain is what causes the knock out. A well delivered power slap can also render someone unconcious especially when delivered to the ear. You hit hard enough (same mechanics as a hook punch) and you'll burst the ear drum and cause equilibrium to become defunct. The only open hand strike I would consider for the street is the hammer fist, the base of a closed fist.
Again its really what works for you. Stick with it work it and use it effectively, but don't rubbish something on the basis of never seeing it or training with it.

Nothingcompares

Hehe, quit editing your post Jon I can't reply to it.

Palm Strikes vs Fist

Nothingcompares

Good few power slaps in there ^

yomchi

Im too slow at typing! I practice my eye poking on the key boards while im typing :-)

yomchi

I don't know who IMA are but the first 30 seconds of that video show dead pad hitting in a postion that replicates someone sitting on the toilet. Please don't use wierdos to rubbish a theory!

Nite all!

henryb

Baggio... wrote:

On what evidence are you basing that on? I don't agree...

I think some of those veteran doorman could easily prove you wrong.

for me personaly for instance if it was a self defence situaton
id be more inclined to use closed fist. while i do know open hand strikes
have advantages, if a 6ft drunken lug had tobe taken out, my own
personel instinct would would be to use closed fists ie. hooks,
uppercuts etc

Baggio...

henryb wrote:

for me personaly for instance if it was a self defence situaton id be more inclined to use closed fist.

Ah I see...Fair enough. While I personally think the open hand is better, a lot of it is down to personal preference. I worked with a few guys who were amazing punchers and never felt the needed to use anything else. So whatever works for you...So if it 'aint broke...as they say.:)

Night lads,

B.

PS - I remember Richard Dimitri talked about a doorman who punched a guy in the mouth, and his hand got infected with Gang green. Nearly had to have it amputated at one point apparently. Nice! That said, you could still cut yourself on teeth with an open hand - although more unlikely.

henryb

or else we could walk around wearing gloves
all the time

nite.

Nothingcompares

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqgeTEwwTzE

gerry posted this before but i'll post it again because not only is it completely weird it's completely fantastic. Old guy in little shorts waking stuff.at 5:04 there is some nice palm striking. bas rutten in pancras showes nice slaps too

Musashi

I would prefer open hand striking over closed fist striking if I have no wraps or tape in place With palm heel you are striking with the end of a long bone, so there's less there to buckle or fail. It's like kicking with the shin rather than the foot.

I'd be more worried about Hepatitis than gangrene infection, Hep. C will feck up your life! I've been inoculated against Hep. A and B so that is a little better than no protection at all. A mate of mine punched a guy (who he caught breaking in to his house) in the mouth lacerating his hand. He was months waiting on test results to see if he'd caught something, it's not worth the worry when it can be avoided to a large extent by using palm shots and hammer fists.

Instead of uppercuts you use a vertical palm heel, same movement but turn the wrist out instead of in. I find palm more natural to use, who falls down and uses their fists to break the fall? You naturally take the impact on the palms, the body defends itself from injury. So why learn to take that type of impact on the knuckles? Go with what your body wants to use and improve on it. The knockout effect comes from brain trauma or rotation of the head/neck, not the tool that causes it. Be it a punch, palm, kick or frying pan the effect is the same.

Millionaire

Yes open hand shots work great for street. !!!

I used a Plam Shot to jaw on this know troublemaker who started on me in a Nightclub 2 years ago, and dropped him beatuifully. and I got a kick at him as he dropped too, just for good measure. he hit me first. (suppose if I was not locked drunk, I would have been able to spot his intention better, and maybe avoided it)

The power you can generate with open hand slaps is amazing. I can generate twice the power, I d guess with a slap that i can with a punch. Yes, as Jon says Pete Considene got some great instruction on this, as has lee morrisson..and if you google Splashing Hands Kung Fu... some handy info there.

Of course training punching and boxing, helps develop this.

Yes, Baz Rutten...on this web site you can see his Pancrase fight clips of him using palms. he had to switch to palms he said, as he was busting his fists up on hard heads.

Plus certain variations of plam strikes, have the add on bonus, that you can get the eye with your finger as a secondary attack. but if you hit the button with a proper plam strke, 80% of the time...game is over for attack, or he will be very stunned, so you can finish him, and get out of danger as fast as you can.

Taiwan-Evo

I agree palm strikes in a street situation are a good idea. A lot depends on the situation. Palm strikes are thrown in a different motion than a standard punch with the fist so sometimes you may have to use your fist. For instance I would jab with my fist not palm if I wanted distance. If ground and pounding someone, Why not palms? saves your hands from getting damaged and will do the job fine.

Nothingcompares

why would you be GnPing someone in self-defense?

paxo

In my experience it depended on the situation. If the attack was sudden I would react by punching If I had some lead in time I would pick the right tool for the job. However punching always felt more natural to me. I suspect that this is true of most people as I have never seen a man throw an open hand strike in an assault situation. Mind you I once saw a girl absolutely floor her Ex with an open hand slap during a domestic in a pub

I am not convinced by the punch his head break your hand arguement. 18/19 century bare knuckle fighters managed to fight for hours without injury to their hands. It may be because they threw predominately straight punches with their fist aligned verticaly and tended to use throws and grappleing when in close. Modern boxing throws horizontal punches and utilises far more hooking/circular puinches

I have worked with men who were able to punch to the head without damage to their hands and almost without exception they worked in physically demanding jobs and had large hands and wrists so perhaps physical make up also plays its part

Paxo

Taiwan-Evo

Nothingcompares wrote:

why would you be GnPing someone in self-defense?

You don't expect the guy to call quites just because you got a few strikes in do you. Always finish the fight so there is no round 2.

yomchi

^^^
Agreed, if you are in the unlucky position of having fallen to the ground with your opponent, top mount is what to aim for and then take it from there!

Pro. F

paxo wrote:

I am not convinced by the punch his head break your hand arguement. 18/19 century bare knuckle fighters managed to fight for hours without injury to their hands.

They fought for so long without injuring their hands because they didn't punch very hard in order to preserve their hands.
I would think that bare knuckle boxing - specifically how long the fights last - is a good example of why punching wouldn't be best relied on in a fight you want to end quickly.
I have heard of some people who can punch really hard with no protection and not hurt their hands. But I think most people can't.
I do think that boxing is a kick a'ss training method. Great delivery system for palm strikes if you want to use them.

dlofnep

Punch the face/nose/jaw and not the head. Problem solved.

yomchi

Years back when we used to go to the Horse Fair in Smithfield. Travellers used to bare knuckle fight for money. An old guy from the area used to challenge them for money, man he musta had about 30 fights over the course of the years. You'll find him in the bar of the Glimmerman most days with the other aul boys - he has to pick up his pint with two hands and with the base of his palms. His knuckles are seriously Fcuked, disfigured and wrecked with arthitis. I'll always slag him about not using slaps instead!

He's a perfect example!

yomchi

dlofnep wrote:

Punch the face/nose/jaw and not the head. Problem solved.

Not so!
The natural reaction for anyone who sees a punch coming is to dip there head and hunch their shoulders, in the place where the jaw was is now their forehead. This is natural human flinch mode, like when your Ma used to give a clip around the ear, natural reaction is that you would hunch up, hands flaying - its all about our human instinct to protect our computer - the brain!

dlofnep

That's where the uppercut comes in.