Anybody prefer palm strikes for self defense ?

yomchi

dlofnep wrote:

That's where the uppercut comes in.

I love these one lined answers of wisdom.

In a real situation, do you think after you've thrown your first punch, cracked it off your opponents forehead that your opponent is going to be in range for an upper cut? An alive full pressure situation will not give the comfort of throwing nice rehearsed boxing combinations. More than likely after the first punch you both will be into a clinch or a very rapid firing of hands - as in the 3 second fight.

On another note how long do think it would take an average joe who wants tolearn SD specific techniques to throw a proper upper cut?

dlofnep

Sometimes it only takes one line. Not every punch you're going to throw is going to hit someone's skull. Most fights from what I've seen are people throwing sloppy hooks, that if fall short, completely miss, or if go too far they end up hitting with their wrist. I think you'd be just fine punching. There are a wealth of videos online from people who turned the pace of a fight using a simple jab.

If you want to use palm strikes, go for it. I'm sure they serve their place, but in the midst of a fight, with adrenaline going, I don't think punching a skull would even bother you until afterwards anyways, IF it even happened.

yomchi

Sometimes it only takes one line

Sometimes..

Not every punch you're going to throw is going to hit someone's skull

Agreed, but thats what were talking about.

There are a wealth of videos online from people who turned the pace of a fight using a simple jab

True, there are also many videos showing fights being ended with open hand strikes.

If you want to use palm strikes, go for it. I'm sure they serve their place, but in the midst of a fight, with adrenaline going, I don't think punching a skull would even bother you until afterwards anyways

Its been well documented that they serve there place. I've used quite a few in my second line of work.
In the midst of a fight with adrenalin going there is way more chances of you missing your target, which increases the chances of you cracking your hand off something hard and damaging. Even a solid punch in the mouth can crack knuckles.
So why worry about dealing with a cracked hand after the fight when you can avoid it completely.
Say you've cracked your hand on the first, second or third punch and you end up in a clinch, ever tried working a clinch with a broken hand?

Having said that, I agree with you - if your comfortable using closed fists, go for it. But it far from solves any problems as you stated.

Roper

Just on the Tyson thing- they always say "hey he broke his hand on aguys head", yet, funnily enough, nobody mentionss what happened to the dudes head...

Frankly, for all the confrontations I get in (none), I wouldn't mind breaking my hand so long as the guy fell down and I could walk away looking sexy. I'll deal with the broken hand tomorrow after I've shagged his bird- no wait, rejected his bird, that'd be better.

On a note of interest, how many fights have you open palm slap supporters been in in the last 2 years, and actually, those arguing for punching as well? I mean, if you're fighting every weekend then argue away, you must be able to know the tools of your trade, but if you're not "defending yourself" regularly, why bother with such a pedantic argument? Hit with what you're comfortable with.

yomchi

Just on the Tyson thing- they always say "hey he broke his hand on aguys head", yet, funnily enough, nobody mentionss what happened to the dudes head...

Nothin! He was on MTV doing an interview after it. He got money to sell his story.

On a note of interest, how many fights have you open palm slap supporters been in in the last 2 years, and actually, those arguing for punching as well? I mean, if you're fighting every weekend then argue away, you must be able to know the tools of your trade, but if you're not "defending yourself" regularly, why bother with such a pedantic argument? Hit with what you're comfortable with

Im not going to get into I've had more fights than you stuff, that belongs in school yard! However I will say I'll be giving up door work in the next few weeks, your more likely to get shot on a door nowadays than be in a one on one in the street. At the moment i do cover work on the Corduff Inn, worked the Blacker in Coolock, the concord in Edenmore, and Judge Darleys for too long. We were shot at 2 twice on Judge Darleys. Thankfully its closed down now. I used to run a security firm with a pal, but I pulled out of it, he still runs and I help him out. But to be honest its a mugs game, especially on them doors. I've seen more busted hands than I care to remember.
Open hand shots work for me, i've also used chairs, security railings and flag poles, fcuk it bro- its me or him - and it aint me this time round.

Nothingcompares

Taiwan-Evo wrote:

You don't expect the guy to call quites just because you got a few strikes in do you. Always finish the fight so there is no round 2.

This doesn't sound like self-defence this sounds like beating the crap out of someone in a street fight because they started on you. Two different things. I would hazard a guess you've not been in many street fights in your adult life. Neither have I. Neither have most normal people. I just think when people start talking about the mean streets of Dublin, Taiwan, Bangkok, a lot of bull**** pops up. Especially from bouncers and ex-bouncers.

The other drawback to slaps are loss of reach, couple of inches even. I've practiced a couple of over hand rights to the heavy bag (hitting with the other side of the wrist, not the veiny part), doesn't seem to hurt. But I say if I was off target, something would hurt

Kev

Surely if you don't land with the right part of the palm you could break your fingers or wrist.

Roper

Yeah that’s what I’m saying Jon, you have to think about it because you work in an environment where you’re possibly going to have to hit a guy. Most people on here are probably not going to have to hit anyone any time soon which makes arguing about it fairly pointless.

You worked in the Blacker? Where you there for the “Dream Girl” riots a few years ago? Ha ha!

pma-ire

if your not used to hitting with a bare unprotected fist and you hit with the wrong part of the fist then you will much more damage to your hand than using the open palm!!

it's easier to practice open palm shots for people looking to learn SD anyway as i'm sure they would not have conditioned hands to cope woth punches from the start.

yomchi

This doesn't sound like self-defence this sounds like beating the crap out of someone in a street fight because they started on you. Two different things. I would hazard a guess you've not been in many street fights in your adult life. Neither have I. Neither have most normal people. I just think when people start talking about the mean streets of Dublin, Taiwan, Bangkok, a lot of bull**** pops up. Especially from bouncers and ex-bouncers.

LOL of course its BullSh1t, its a bull sh1t job - but its the real world. You want to talk about striking in the real world talk to someone who's done it. By your own admission you've been in very few if any, so what are you basing your theory on?

This doesn't sound like self-defence this sounds like beating the crap out of someone in a street fight because they started on you.

With all due respect if it takes this to elimate a threat well then I agree with the poster. You don't have to be in many altercations to know if you need to remove a threat you need to what is necessary. It is perfect self defence, if the threat warrants this response.

The other drawback to slaps are loss of reach

How pray tell? put your hand in front of you make a fist thumb facing up, know open your hand - which is longer?

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Yeah that’s what I’m saying Jon, you have to think about it because you work in an environment where you’re possibly going to have to hit a guy. Most people on here are probably not going to have to hit anyone any time soon which makes arguing about it fairly pointless.

until they end up in a situation (be it at some far off point in the future then so be it!) where they may have to hit back at someone. then i'd say that it may come in handy??

don't mean to sound condesending man! but it's just another usedul way to strike. it don't have to be discounted because it don't fit into an ideology that someone else may have.

SorGan

henryb wrote:

To deliver effective punches in order to knock somebody out
it has to be closed fist every time. Palm strike to the nose can
be very effective , but i dont think it has the same effect as a punch.
Dont forget elbow strikes can be devestating.

what??
i just finished watching a few of bas ruttens fights hee on dvd, he floored a few big lads with open hand slaps

yomchi

Roper wrote:

Yeah that’s what I’m saying Jon, you have to think about it because you work in an environment where you’re possibly going to have to hit a guy. Most people on here are probably not going to have to hit anyone any time soon which makes arguing about it fairly pointless.

You worked in the Blacker? Where you there for the “Dream Girl” riots a few years ago? Ha ha!

Completely agree Barry my man! However my response was to the OP who asked a specific question which I replied to with Bull Sh1t!

And TBH most of the arguments here boil down to being pointless unfortunately. Better off arguing over was Ali's glove really cut open by his corner when he fought Cooper... now there's a debate!

HAHA we took the Blacker over when it became Liz Delaneys altho its still called the Blacker locally! So we missed out on that fun!

Nothingcompares

Jon wrote:

LOL of course its BullSh1t, its a bull sh1t job - but its the real world. You want to talk about striking in the real world talk to someone who's done it. By your own admission you've been in very few if any, so what are you basing your theory on?

little bit of boxing and a little big of mma

How pray tell? put your hand in front of you make a fist thumb facing up, know open your hand - which is longer?

? You do it. My result is a shorter reach with slap, longer with fist.

yomchi

Nothingcompares wrote:

little bit of boxing and a little big of mma



? You do it. My result is a shorter reach with slap, longer with fist.

I meant in the real world chara, not in a ring. The OP asked about self defence as in reality on them mean streets not in a comfy ring.

Wow your extended hand is shorter than your compressed hand?

Nothingcompares

Well do you mean the tips of my fingers? When I'm slapping I intend to hit with the heel of my hand. Is that not what you do? Or is it a mammy slap and you're using your whole palm? So in terms of loss of reach, I'm talking about the heel of the hand versus knuckles of fist. sorry for being ambigious.

I dunno man, MMA training is real, it's not fantasy. I don't see how it would differ inside or outside the ring. It's just hitting someone.

Matt Thornton wrote:

How do you train for self defence? You train with 100% Aliveness. Using the "I" method, and having fun. Circumstances will dictate tactics, and plans will always change upon contact, but the DELIVERY SYSTEMS of stand up, clinch, and ground will ALWAYS remain the same. And the TRAINING METHODS for those delivery systems also remains and obvious constant.

pma-ire

Nothingcompares wrote:

? You do it. My result is a shorter reach with slap, longer with fist.

The most common KO punches are either a cross from the back or a front hook. Both hit with the first two knuckles on the fist. This causes the arm to be curved on impact so that these tools connect with the target. which in turn shortens the arms reach.

Trying these with open palms changes the striking tool and direction of travel (slightly). Adding a few inches to the reach of the strike.

What are you using to prove your theory?

Nothingcompares

I'm off to superquinn I'll take a few photos when I get back, maybe I've got this whole thing wrong.

SorGan

bas rutten open handhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=reqCDfg9NM8

Roper

pma-ire wrote:

until they end up in a situation (be it at some far off point in the future then so be it!) where they may have to hit back at someone. then i'd say that it may come in handy??

don't mean to sound condesending man! but it's just another usedul way to strike. it don't have to be discounted because it don't fit into an ideology that someone else may have.

Oh I don’t feel condescended; you just don’t understand what I’m getting at.

I would hazard a guess that a lot of the people who are involved in this debate have a lot more to think about in terms of their skill levels, conditioning and general ability in fighting before they think about whether to hit with a fist or open hand.

Now first up, I’m not great, in fact I’m probably just slightly on the side of good. Fact is I’ve met and trained with people off this board who’ve advocated all types of SD/MA training and many of them had either a) No real fighting skills, or b) Bad or very bad physical fitness. So my point is that until I meet the people advocating the types of training in question, I take what’s said on here with a hefty pinch of salt. I mean, there could be some guy advocating palm slaps when he’s having difficulty reaching the keyboard.

I should also point out that I’ve met others and trained with them who’ve surprised me with the sort of training they do. So I keep an open mind, but for the most part I just think “it’s the internet, this guy could be a 55 year old man in women’s underwear”.

yomchi

Well do you mean the tips of my fingers? When I'm slapping I intend to hit with the heel of my hand. Is that not what you do? Or is it a mammy slap and you're using your whole palm? So in terms of loss of reach, I'm talking about the heel of the hand versus knuckles of fist. sorry for being ambigious.

I dunno man, MMA training is real, it's not fantasy. I don't see how it would differ inside or outside the ring. It's just hitting someone

MMA training is probably the toughest of all the MA styles and the training too. I didn't say it was fantasy, and to be honest I wouldn't have the balls to get in and do what some of the real MMAers here do. There has already been a long drawn out debate about this on another thread I don't intend on starting another. I really admire them, especially the ones who get in and fight.
To put it simply its a different ball game completely on the street (man I hate using that term! If anyone else has a better one please advise! )

If you'd like to pop down to Arbour Hill boxing club some day I can show you better what I mean - I don't mean that as come down and we'll kill each other :eek: I mean come down and we'll drill the differnces, I'll even buy you a snack box on the way home

yomchi

Oh I don’t feel condescended; you just don’t understand what I’m getting at.

You have a way with words Bar! You should have been a politician

[QUOTEbut for the most part I just think “it’s the internet, this guy could be a 55 year old man in women’s underwear][/QUOTE]

Grrr Foiled again... who told you!!

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

So I keep an open mind, but for the most part I just think “it’s the internet, this guy could be a 55 year old man in women’s underwear”.

dam! are you hooked into my webcam????

pma-ire

Jon wrote:

I'll even buy you a snack box on the way home

ahh thats lovely

Roper

pma-ire wrote:

The most common KO punches are either a cross from the back or a front hook. Both hit with the first two knuckles on the fist.

No, thats a misconception. Those two knuckles have the least support from your arm/wrist.

yomchi

Better believe it! Them snack boxes are gorgeous down my way!

Roper

Jon wrote:

Grrr Foiled again... who told you!!

Don't play coy with me, you sent me a photo....

yomchi

Thats it, you getting no more off me, you bitch...

HammerHeadGym

Roper wrote:

...after I've shagged his bird- no wait, rejected his bird...

That's some cold blooded sh1t roper.

Nice

Nothingcompares

sounds good jon when is convenient? i do love snack boxes. roper when you're on a break you should drop up to the Fingal in swords village. Very good snack boxes. Another chipper that's good that's only around the corner from your club is the miami beside the autobahn. If jon's claims of superior snack boxes are true I'll be astonished, never mind this slapping nonsense