Anybody prefer palm strikes for self defense ?

yomchi

Nothingcompares wrote:

sounds good jon when is convenient? i do love snack boxes. roper when you're on a break you should drop up to the Fingal in swords village. Very good snack boxes. Another chipper that's good that's only around the corner from your club is the miami beside the autobahn. If jon's claims of superior snack boxes are true I'll be astonished, never mind this slapping nonsense

We've turned it into Snack boxing by the look of it

Im easy man, I've me own keys (shut it Roper) let me know when suits you. Where do you train by the way?

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

No, thats a misconception. Those two knuckles have the least support from your arm/wrist.

I punch with the lower knuckles also.

Which do give you a longer punch with a closed fist. But they are also weaker than the first two knuckles.

Just a question on that Roper, have you tried these punches on hard bags or targets bare handed or wrapped and gloved? It's only so I know what you based your comments on.

Nothingcompares

Jon wrote:

We've turned it into Snack boxing by the look of it

Im easy man, I've me own keys (shut it Roper) let me know when suits you. Where do you train by the way?

I train in SBG N (this month anyway). Roper are you training tomorrow morning?

yomchi

Nothingcompares wrote:

I train in SBG N (this month anyway). Roper are you training tomorrow morning?

Roper trains everyday, he never sleeps

Let me know when your free mate and we'll work around it. Tomorrow may be possible if it suits I need to check with Avona BC club first, they're usually in there on Sunday.

Nothingcompares

Well if it's convenient for you and roper doesn't mind we could join his crew tomorrow? I know it's being a bit rude volunteering roper's place like this. He has a couple of pads and I'm sure he wouldn't mind some rolling/sparring that myself and yourself could offer him.

yomchi

Nothingcompares wrote:

Well if it's convenient for you and roper doesn't mind we could join his crew tomorrow? I know it's being a bit rude volunteering roper's place like this. He has a couple of pads and I'm sure he wouldn't mind some rolling/sparring that myself and yourself could offer him.

Now what is it your after? Rolling and or sparring or short lesson in street fighting :eek: Im talking the one with no rules! All joking aside, I offered to show you the effectivness of open hand striking at my place!

Nothingcompares

well i'm sure we could do both. you could show me the RBSD stuff. shouldn't take much more than 30mins. then we could have a friendly roll. i know you do some bjj. it's just roper's place is handy for me and arbour hill isn't.

yomchi

Nothingcompares wrote:

well i'm sure we could do both. you could show me the RBSD stuff. shouldn't take much more than 30mins. then we could have a friendly roll. i know you do some bjj. it's just roper's place is handy for me and arbour hill isn't.

Vice Versa for me. Shouldn't take much more than 30 mins eh? Don't say I didn't offer! I would of done some pad work with you too, wasn't it you who wanted to know how to throw a proper hook punch not long back?

Nothingcompares

Jon wrote:

Vice Versa for me. Shouldn't take much more than 30 mins eh? Don't say I didn't offer! I would of done some pad work with you too, wasn't it you who wanted to know how to throw a proper hook punch not long back?

Ok thanks, I'll let you know when I can make it. Thanks for the offer.

yomchi

No probs mate

paxo

Pro. F wrote:

They fought for so long without injuring their hands because they didn't punch very hard in order to preserve their hands.

I would think that bare knuckle boxing - specifically how long the fights last - is a good example of why punching wouldn't be best relied on in a fight you want to end quickly.
I have heard of some people who can punch really hard with no protection and not hurt their hands. But I think most people can't.
I do think that boxing is a kick a'ss training method. Great delivery system for palm strikes if you want to use them.

I disagree. The length of the fights had more to do with the rules as laid down by Jack Broughton i.e any time a fighter went down he had 30 seconds to come up to scratch. Fighters took advantage of this by going to ground to get a breather

Contemorary reports of the time records several serious injuries and deaths from bare knuckle boxing. In fact Broughton developed the prize ring rules after one of his opponents died following a fight.

To return to the origional post, Palm v Fist. Palm strikes exclusively target the head and face, punching has the option of going to the body.

But at the end of the day it is a matter of what works for you. Train your techniques and pressure test them and don't worry about what everyone else thinks

Paxo

Millionaire

Another interesting about punching from old style boxing ala Jack Dempsey, is their straing lead punch, was done with vertical fist and BOTTOM 3 knuckles for contact.

This is where Jeet Kune Do took its straigh lead punch from with a goal of having KO power, as opposed to a less powerful jab.

This is am learning right now, and we use bare knuckle when working the pads. it really is very different when you do pad work barefist full power, as opposed to when I do muay thai with hand wraps and gloves on.

its quite a good exercise to practice at times. it show you how different it feels (with no gloves) should you have to punch some in the face in a self defence situation.

henryb

SorGan wrote:

what??
i just finished watching a few of bas ruttens fights hee on dvd, he floored a few big lads with open hand slaps

yeah, but im not Bas Rutten

Millionaire

henryb wrote:

yeah, but im not Bas Rutten

Does not matter.... just train 110% to the best of YOUR abilities.

I will never go too far with Muay Thai fighting, as I go into it too late in the game, and age is not on my side, but I certainly give 110% (most of the time) to be best of my abilities. that way I know I am imporving and getting better (probably better that I give myself credit for), and also overcoming the biggest enemy...which can be myself...pushing through to the other side as best I can.

when I was a kickboxing a few years back, I managed to fight at international level Ireland Vs England (once! LOL! ), I did the best to my ability, but I just did not have the "natural" edge, some of the fighters better than me had.

it was a bit hard on the ego to accept that, to be told i would not be asked to fight again at that level, while my training buddies, did go on to bigger and better things. funny thing is now, over 10 years later... I am training away...harder that I ever did..and many of those really talented lads, dropped out years ago, stopped training, and now are over weight, way out of shape looking.

But I know I did the best I could. and i am still here at it.

henryb

Nice one gerry, they say you cant keep a good man down.
And well done on representig your country.
Not to many people can say that. You must
have been very proud!

pma-ire

paxo wrote:

To return to the origional post, Palm v Fist. Palm strikes exclusively target the head and face, punching has the option of going to the body.

There is no reason why a heel palm to the ribs can't be used?

If you get used to the right angle for the strike then there should be no problem.

A few sessions on a bag using a sharp pushing motion should do the trick!!

Pro. F

Oh man so much to reply to..

paxo wrote:

I disagree. The length of the fights had more to do with the rules as laid down by Jack Broughton i.e any time a fighter went down he had 30 seconds to come up to scratch. Fighters took advantage of this by going to ground to get a breather

Ah yes good point. I remember now hearing about some famous boxer who won a lot by going down for a breather when ever he was in any trouble. I'm pretty sure the Queensburry rules outlawed this long before gloves came along. And there were still looong fights with those rules, I think. I'm going to look into it.

But for this debate we can still observe the fact that modern day, and recent day, bare knuckle boxers try to protect their hands until they are sure of hitting a good target - and these matches are usually not over quickly, afaik.

Roper wrote:

for the most part I just think “it’s the internet, this guy could be a 55 year old man in women’s underwear”.

Roper, on whether we should be arguing this or not.
I trained Thai for several years and competed in full rules mma.
I've just returned (in the last few months) to martial arts training after a year of just doing running training and some other things. Now, what I've started recently is Escrima with the Warriors lads in Molesworth street. It's cool. I can see my weapon skills going from what they were - zero - up to being useful, and its great. And effective too.
I'm hoping to start free style wrestling next week (something totally new and intriguing for me) because my empty hand has become rotten after so long neglected. And after I've moved gaff - in the next while - I'm prob gonna look to join the nearest boxing club (to get a diff view of striking to that which I got in MT).
And I'm not 55 I'm 25. I'm not fat and I'd only wear women's underwear if... no, I never wear women's underwear

Here's the reason that I want to discuss open hand vs palm and so get people's views on it. In my last mma fight (which was three years ago now) the guy I was fighting broke his hand punching me. And in my first fight I wrecked my right hand with a solid hook (I think I can't remember exactly) that landed a bit too high. I remember thinking - sh!t I can't punch with that now, what next?!
So I'm interested in exploring other weapons to hit with, like the palm, especially if they can be delivered using MT or boxing.

I know what you mean about training being more important than discussion, I agree with you. And abstract discussion of what works without real experience is also dodgy. But I do think that it's worthwhile spending some time investigating to find out what works best for you. So then you can carefully choose your training and not waste you're time doing something that doesn't work or that you won't use. It just makes training more efficient. If I believe that wrestlers beat strikers then I'll train wrestling - it just makes best use of time (provided the training is tolerable).

From this thread I've seen that Bas Rutten is worth looking into. I'm gonna look for his fights and find out what his training methods were.

Pro. F

me in the last post wrote:

I'm pretty sure the Queensburry rules outlawed this long before gloves came along.

just went on wikipedia. no not the Queensbury Rules they were later. the Revised London Prize Ring rules? I'm not sure and this is going off topic anyway.

Nothingcompares

what show did you fight on 3 years ago?

judomick

Pro. F wrote:

I trained Thai for several years and competed in full rules mma.
In my last mma fight (which was three years ago now).

what shows have you fought on Pro.F?

Pro. F

Cage Wars 3 in Galway and before that in Randalstown, I think the show was called 'war in the cage' or something like that.

Nothingcompares

Pro. F wrote:

Cage Wars 3 in Galway and before that in Randalstown, I think the show was called 'war in the cage' or something like that.

were you training with dave joyce then or black dragon kickboxing or what?

Clive

Cage Wars 3 - "Hell's Kitchen", and a fine event it was too!

Nothingcompares

http://sfuk.tripod.com/events_02/cage_wars3.html

sounds deadly.

Pro. F

Nothingcompares wrote:

were you training with dave joyce then or black dragon kickboxing or what?

Ye Dave Joyce. I trained in his club the whole time i was living in galway. bad weather and MA training ..that's galway as I remember it!

Pro. F

Nothingcompares wrote:

sounds deadly.

Ye it was class. Big venue with great lights and sound, really cool. Dave's Muay Thai shows are the same as that, in the black box in Galway. top notch.

Dave Joyce

what shows have you fought on Pro.F?

As John is not blowing his trumpet here its worth pointing out that his first fight (and he hadn't ANY Thai, boxing etc experience) was against if I'm not mistaken Greg Loughran and Greg had had a few fights at that stage (let alone now:eek:).

Man, once again some of this debate is gas but great reading even if it takes a little bit of time:( I remember very early on in my training, Jim Shortt who had had a bit of military experience saying he found it difficult to understand why people would punch someone in the head and risk damaging their knuckles when a palm strike would do as much damage. I accepted that as a good point and didn't think much more about 'till (Ha, wait for it..) I saw one of Lee Hasdells shows live in Milton Keynes and because it was bareknuckle fighters couldn't punch but they were allowed palmheel (more or less Pancrase rules). Once you've seen the likes of Ian Freeman deliver palmheels it gives you a very different perspective on the effectiveness of them.

This debate also hits home to me because of what Jon and Baggio have said about the risk to your knuckles. I am a fairly decent striker and a good few years ago some scum took me brand new aqquired bike, (I was just after gettin into serious debt to get the friggin thing) and got some friends to give me a hand look for it and we caught them red-handed. Well, I smacked the little fuvker in the mouth and broke 3 of his teeth and although I didn't badly injure my hand I cut it badly on his mouth which put paid to any fighting for a while (I was active in the ring at that time). I also have the scar on my left hand to this day and this why I always teach palmheel shots on any Self Protection courses I teach. I had reported the bike stolen and well yer man, (his buddy managed to leg it) got a few slaps that night (not just from me) as he quite a long record for this kind of thing and had been stealing all kinds of motorised stuff and burning it, which was a bitch when bikes weren't insured for fire and theft. Anyways he bitched to the cops about us. It was kinda hard to explain how I cut my hand in training when the cops questioned me about the incident:o Palmheels always when you've no gloves.

Btw nothing compares seeing as you were referring to the UFC, remember Keith Hackney and Emmanuel (big Sumo) and the state of Hackneys hands after that fight???? They don't need to plamheel now as they wear GLOVES. As either Jon or Baggio have pointed out about the effectiveness also of hammerfists you'll now see a LOT of UFC fighter utilise this strike.

yomchi

Hi Dave,
Out of curiosity (as im a bike fan myself!) what type of bike was it? I remember having my FireBlade 900 lifted in town one day, just to see it being wheelied up summer hill !!!

FiannaGym.com

Yo, just some expereince I have had that maybe others haven't...

In my first fight, everything was going grand, I got the dude crouched over on the ropes and started to really tee off, one punch hit him solidly in the side of his head and I really hurt my middle kunckle, I switched to a palm shot, hit him once and then said to myself 'I can't let this go' so I went back for a few more punches. I hurt my knuckle really badly even though I was punching through Harginger gloves.

In my last fight, for some reason only "palm" shots were allowed on the ground. SO I was G'n'Ping this guy, and as I was palm striking him I was thinking "wow palm shots are so ineffective" and "man, Bas Rutten is full of $h1T". In an ideal world the palm shot is great, put you rarely hit exactly on the button because...
1/ Your fighting a dude of equal or greater skill, if not just butterfly kick the dude
2/ Trying to get something as wide (and tall) as an open palm through a guard is really difficult, especially compared to a fist.

Now, depending on circumstances I may or may not use palm shots.

I'd be curious to find out how many people have sparred or fought an equally skilled fighter 100% with palm shots. I'm not asking I'm just saying I'm curious.

Peace

Millionaire

just the opposite of Fiannas point... I got in a bit of trouble down in Tennieffe, (plays del las amercias...that should say it all), and I was really trying to KO this guy right on the chin with powerful punches.... the fight was going all over the road, and I could not nail him on the button at all!!!!
maybe due to drink, and also he was jumping all over the place, trying to whack me too!

I find plams easier to hit mark in street.

In the ring, I never used one...cause hands wrapped and taped, gloves on etc.