Crime out of control in this country

gurramok

CiaranC, tell that to the Mace workers who are now traumitised as a result of the shooting in the IFSC last night never mind those living in the apartments and those in national college of ireland.
I missed that incident by 30minutes, it could of been me caught up in it.
I also live near the double murder scene in which such an event doesnt shock me anymore as i'm used to all the crap happening over the years.

4 INNOCENT people have been murdered this year as a result of shootings not to mention the countless witnesses who have been caught in shootings whether someone was injured(or not) or murdered, they are all traumitised and will need counselling to get over it.

As i mentioned before on boards, 90% of 120 odd gun murders in last 10 years remain unsolved, its an law enforcement problem and yes legalising drugs will help reducing it imho.

But..22 of 30 gang members locally who were caught with huge hauls of drugs and possesion of firearms are out on bail awaiting trial, to intimidate as they please, absolute joke.

empirix

Just to clarify something, "Marlo" was hiding out in his 'niece's' house and so it was probably her who contacted somebody for the nixer, although the fact that he lay asleep while two dudes were in the house working and had no worries, especially after being warned on his life is another thing. Although again, this man was Mr.Big in Ireland and so you could argue that he wouldn't of gave a rats about some plumbers working in the house and might also of doubted the fact that somebody would be foolish enough to "hit" hm.

To clarify another point, from what was probably the most ignorant post here, about the young plumber recognising the killers because his from the city - don't be so fukcing stupid - this was a professional hit without a doubt, this wasn't the local boyos' like them in Limerick, the hitman(men) had surveillance in place, new when to make the move and used a 'silencer' - wiped out the plumber because he couldn't give any help to the Gardai that might risk him/she/them getting caught. Making a hit on such a big dealer, you don't want any chance of being id'd - very ruthless but very professional. RIP

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hagar wrote:

As I said, cue moral indignation. I grew up in the inner city and I spent most of my life working there including the Moore St are so I know the score. Certain areas in Dublin, and other cities, have reputations as being rough. These reps are usually well earned. That doesn't mean that the aren't lots of decent, honest hardworking people there, it just means the bad people are more prominent. The only way for decent people to live there is to know who is who. Who not to cross, and usually to know some thug well enough to offer you and you family some protection as one of his "buddies". Have a read of this recent thread in Motors where a guy's car is interferred with and he solves the problem by setting a local hardman on the car thieves. maybe you didn't know that that's the way the world works in some parts of the city. People either have no respect or no faith in the Gardaí.

You're right I'm normally a level headed guy, maybe it was a mistake to air my thoughts. I'm sorry if I've mentioned in public what a lot of people know goes on but don't openly acknowledge. As for calling me a snob, what can I say, you don't know me at all. I'm just a Joe Soap with a Dublin accent, same as the next guy trying to get by, I work for myself and I drive a 97 Citroen Estate with 164,000 miles on the clock. I'm working class with no illusions about myself, my background or my prospects. As a snob I'm a bit of a failure wouldn't you say? So easy with the name calling please.

Thanks for the reply. But honestly, I think you are way off the mark in your 'thoughts'. Probably like you I call a spade a spade, but you really shouldn't have tried to make the connection between an innocent murder victim and the scumbag who was murdered in the same house.

As regards the name calling, come on now, calling you a "snob" is hardly offensive considering the things you said about that poor lad, his family and those living around him. Its how you came across, thats all... Btw, you should have heard what my wife called you after reading your remarks... lol

Seriously, and not a rebuke. You should download Joe Duffy's interview with the kids uncle yesterday. Its a very moving portrayal of a lovely young fella, from a very articulate uncle, who (btw) grew up in the same flats and is a teacher!.

But anyway this is getting way off topic.

In dealing with these murder's, rapists, gangsters etc while Paul Williams (Sunday World) appear's to be the man with his finger on the pulse when he talks about the judicial system, its failings. The Dept. of Justice's failing the Gardai, the failure of the bail & libel law's.

-Mairt

SimpleSam06

Sonderval wrote:

We really need more prisons in Ireland. And to those who espouse the view that a country's prison service reflects its society (i.e the treatment of prisoners), well, they should really get with the times. Innocents are being murdered - society needs to instill some fear into getting jailed, rather then the minor incovenience it appears to be now...

No, we don't need more prisons in Ireland, we need less prisons, that means we as a society are doing something right. And we don't need more guards on the street, the more police you have out there, the more people you have in prison. Thats the simple fact of it. And we certainly don't need them armed.

I suggested this before on boards, and I'll suggest it again now. For lifetime criminals and those that refuse to reform, and/or those who commit particularily horrendous crimes, ship them off to serve their sentences in a nice little south east asian prison.

A few years in Hondo correctional will make a model citizen out of the most cocky scofflaw, guaranteed. And as I mentioned before, the south east asian government in question could certainly use the coin, so everyone wins. We can tell them they won't get any more contracts if the hard man in question doesn't make it back assus intactus or something. Whatever.

The punishments meted out by society are not enough to deter people like this, so those punishments need to change.

Edit: Oh yes and for bonus points, this will save the Irish taxpayer countless millions.

Sam Vimes

ziggy67 wrote:

There is an easy way to put the scumbags out of business: legalise drugs. Take away the reason they exist, regulate supply & tax it

Prohibition simply doesn't work anyway, so why not??

there's rapes and murders despite them being prohibited. "its going to happen anyway" isn't a reason to legalise something. howver, taking drugs harms no one but the taker so i think it should be legalised

Hagar

Mairt wrote:

but you really shouldn't have tried to make the connection between an innocent murder victim and the scumbag who was murdered in the same house.

As regards the name calling, come on now, calling you a "snob" is hardly offensive considering the things you said about that poor lad, his family and those living around him. Its how you came across, thats all... Btw, you should have heard what my wife called you after reading your remarks... lol

Seriously, and not a rebuke. You should download Joe Duffy's interview with the kids uncle yesterday.

The only connection I made was suggesting that because it was a nixer he might know the guy. As I said since in an earlier post I didn't realise it wasn't his nixer so he mightn't have known him at all. I never said calling me a snob was offensive, I just said I wasn't a snob and asked you to "go easy" with the name calling. It's attacking me personally and not what I posted although not as bad as

Empirix wrote:

what was probably the most ignorant post here, about the young plumber recognising the killers because his from the city - don't be so fukcing stupid

which I would consider to be full on abusive. I may be in the wrong, but show me to be wrong and I'll listen, don't call me ignorant and fúcking stupid.

You don't often see innocent bystanders killed like this. It wasn't reported as a ricochet or anything so the guys must have thought they had good reason to kill the young lad. The only one I conclusion I can come to is he must have been in a position to identify them either by seeing their faces or recognising them.

I'll download the Joe Duffy link and have a listen.

KerranJast

It really bugs me when the country goes hysterical over drug related shootings when those drug dealers are in business due to the demand from "decent" society. The current drug feuds are over cannabis and cocaine not heroin and where is the demand for those drugs coming from? Not deprived areas like traditionally heroin was, but from the middle class, the same people outraged over drug related killings. People need to start connecting the dots between the coke and hash they buy and the feuding over who controls the market. Lest we forget John Gilligan made his fortune with hash which has mass market "appeal". The current gang crime can only be stopped with increased Garda resources targeted at the gangs and a serious crack down on the demand for drugs not just supply therefore harsher penalties for possession are needer similar to New York.

The Hill Billy

Someone in Leinster House must have been reading this thread this morning. They're throwing an extra 20 Gardai at organised crime.

That'll have those crims quaking in their boots.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hagar wrote:

The only connection I made was suggesting that because it was a nixer he might know the guy. As I said since in an earlier post I didn't realise it wasn't his nixer so he mightn't have known him at all. I never said calling me a snob was offensive, I just said I wasn't a snob and asked you to "go easy" with the name calling. It's attacking me personally and not what I posted although not as bad as
which I would consider to be full on abusive. I may be in the wrong, but show me to be wrong and I'll listen, don't call me ignorant and fúcking stupid.

You don't often see innocent bystanders killed like this. It wasn't reported as a ricochet or anything so the guys must have thought they had good reason to kill the young lad. The only one I conclusion I can come to is he must have been in a position to identify them either by seeing their faces or recognising them.

I'll download the Joe Duffy link and have a listen.

Honestly, I wasn't getting into name calling. But what you implied about the lad was very unfair.

I don't have the time to go back qouting what you said, but "there's more to this than meets the eye" suggests you knew something the rest of us didn't.

You also said "So there must be some connection there, the customer must have been known to the plumber.". Why?.

When Jimmy Curran was shot dead in the Green Lizard did he know the people in the bar, and if he did were they also guilty by association?.

ANyway, this is nit picking. I just thought you were out of line impling there was a close connection between 'Mr Big' & the murdered lad.

Btw, had this young lad been from Malahide, Foxrock or anyother middleclass area of the city would you have tried to make the association between him and the intended victim?... I think not.

As regards your '97 Citroen.. You don't need material wealth to be considered a snob!... But I take your word for it that your not one.

ScumLord

Arming thick muck savages with a chip on their sholder is not the answer. I'm convinced all this crime is down to big citys and the loss of community. It's just going to keep getting worse and worse as long as we continue to make the same mistakes as other countrys.

Sangre

Sonderval wrote:

I am personally for very harsh sentences - I believe that longer sentences would act as a strong deterrent. I'm talking the 10+ year mark here. Also, when you are convicted of life imprisonment, you get exactly that. A wilful murderer should never be allowed to walk free again.

Unfortunately Sonderval studies have shown time and time again that longer sentences for serious* crimes have negigible effect on crime levels. If you put a gun to someone heads to kill them in cold blooded murder, its not because you might only get 10 rather than 30 years, its because you're a heartless scumbag.

If you want to tackle crime you need to go to the root of the problem, not the leaves. That is tackle poverty, low education, victimisation and social disorganisation.

*I'm talking rape, serious assualt, murder etc.,

arybvtcw0eolkf

KerranJast wrote:

It really bugs me when the country goes hysterical over drug related shootings when those drug dealers are in business due to the demand from "decent" society. The current drug feuds are over cannabis and cocaine not heroin and where is the demand for those drugs coming from? Not deprived areas like traditionally heroin was, but from the middle class, the same people outraged over drug related killings. People need to start connecting the dots between the coke and hash they buy and the feuding over who controls the market. Lest we forget John Gilligan made his fortune with hash which has mass market "appeal". The current gang crime can only be stopped with increased Garda resources targeted at the gangs and a serious crack down on the demand for drugs not just supply therefore harsher penalties for possession are needer similar to New York.

In other words...

Everytime you do a line of coke in Foxrock, someone gets shot in Coolock.

Calibos

KerranJast wrote:

It really bugs me when the country goes hysterical over drug related shootings when those drug dealers are in business due to the demand from "decent" society. The current drug feuds are over cannabis and cocaine not heroin and where is the demand for those drugs coming from? Not deprived areas like traditionally heroin was, but from the middle class, the same people outraged over drug related killings. People need to start connecting the dots between the coke and hash they buy and the feuding over who controls the market. Lest we forget John Gilligan made his fortune with hash which has mass market "appeal". The current gang crime can only be stopped with increased Garda resources targeted at the gangs and a serious crack down on the demand for drugs not just supply therefore harsher penalties for possession are needer similar to New York.

Excellent post!

I myself have partaken in the past of all but the really hard stuff and would raise my eyes to heaven at most of the anti drugs sloganeering. "Drugs, are bad m'kay, Drugs will kill you" etc 'Decent' society in the main does heed the warnings about heroin and crack, Crystal meth etc. The sloganeering lumps coke, E's and hash in there too though and "Decent" society just rejects all the anti drugs slogans because they know the later are distinct from the former in the negative impacts.

My point is, is that this is the kind of thing that should be used on the anti drug message. Not that all drugs are devastating but that even the lesser drugs certainly don't do your health or bank balance any good, that whether they should be legalised is neither here nor there. They are illegal NOW and that it is their line on a saturday night and their spliff on Sunday morning that is driving the slaughter on the streets and the gangland crime. Use the anti drugs posters to talk to the middle class users and ask them are they really so self centred that they don't give a flying f@ck what effect their 'little' habit is having on the fabric of society.

I know that this is already one of the anti drugs message but it is out numbered by all the "All drugs are bad, M'kay" messages that no one pays any head to anyway. The Your drug use is causing the slaughter should be the main anti drug message.

I haven't done even a spliff in donkeys years anyway, but I certainly won't even be tempted to have the odd one even if offered a toke from now on.

I certainly cannot live with myself knowing I am giving one cent to the gangland scum.

Sonderval

If you put a gun to someone heads to kill them in cold blooded murder, its not because you might only get 10 rather than 30 years, its because you're a heartless scumbag.

I suspected that may be the case (re: deterrence) - however, I am sure you will agree that it would be much better to lock this person up for life, rather then have them out strolling around Dublin after only a decade. If long sentences do not act as sufficient deterrent, then the least we can do is provide a modicum of justice by ensuring such persons are not free in our society. I'm sure most victims families would agree.

Calibos, an interesting approach to solving the issue - however, I remain skeptical to the potential benefit such a campaign would reap. Unfortunately, most of the middle-class drug users who I have known would probably not be persuaded to change their habits on such a prompting.

CiaranC

Calibos wrote:

They are illegal NOW and that it is their line on a saturday night and their spliff on Sunday morning that is driving the slaughter on the streets and the gangland crime. Use the anti drugs posters to talk to the middle class users and ask them are they really so self centred that they don't give a flying f@ck what effect their 'little' habit is having on the fabric of society.

People have always used drugs and always will use drugs. The market will always exist. That is cold, inalienable fact. No amount of wishful thinking will make it go away.

Any solution that doesnt have that tenet at its centre is doomed to total failure.

empirix

Hagar wrote:

which I would consider to be full on abusive. I may be in the wrong, but show me to be wrong and I'll listen, don't call me ignorant and fúcking stupid.

You don't often see innocent bystanders killed like this. It wasn't reported as a ricochet or anything so the guys must have thought they had good reason to kill the young lad. The only one I conclusion I can come to is he must have been in a position to identify them either by seeing their faces or recognising them.

I'll download the Joe Duffy link and have a listen.

Sorry but you were ignorant and stupid, the hitman(men) are aabout to kill Irelands biggest drug dealer, do you really think they'll leave anything to chance and put themselves and their families at risk, course they were going to be brutal and kill anybody who could help the Gardai.

Hagar

Post reported. I let it go once but repeating it is pushing your luck.

When I have my dinner I'll come back with another post and if you're still here you can rebutt it.

Hagar

Ok just to recap. I never said the plumber was in any way a criminal. I did say that there was a likelihood that he knew the dealer. Why did I say that?

Look at what happened, a major drug dealer is sleeping in his brother's house. All the family member's have gone out and left him asleep. Right. Alone unguarded from his many enemies, except for 2 lads doing a nixer plumbing. One of those goes off on an errand of some kind leaving a drug lord / gun dealer asleep in an otherwise empty house except for a young lad who everone claims didn't know whose house he was in. Christ, you could make a damn good living selling magic beans in this town.

Put yourself in the dealers shoes. Imagine how he lives his life, constantly looking over his shoulder watching out for his rivals who would kill him given half a chance. So he sleeps soundly while a total stranger works alone in his house!!! Can you see where my scepticism arises? The dealer must have known and trusted young lad to sleep so soundly that even the noise of the work didn't awaken him. By the same logic, it is also likely that whoever carried out the murders may have been recognised by the plumber because he probably knew the lie of the land regarding the dealer and his enemies. Now once again I'm reapeating that I don't think the plumber was a criminal or was involved in drugs or gun.

I'd lay even money that the house wasn't as empty as has been reported, I'd put more money down that people saw more than they are admitting and that the family know the criminals will not be caught because "nobody saw nothing, never heard anything, wasn't even there". That's the way it's always been, that's the way it always will be. I'd give good odds the the Gardaí won't even come within sniffing distance of who did it.

Ruu_Old

empirix wrote:

Sorry but you were ignorant and stupid, the hitman(men) are aabout to kill Irelands biggest drug dealer, do you really think they'll leave anything to chance and put themselves and their families at risk, course they were going to be brutal and kill anybody who could help the Gardai.

You can discuss the topic without the personal shots otherwise not at all. Thanks.

hellboy99

spanner wrote:

I dont think we need to arm Gardai or bring back the death penalty what we really need to do is to catch these guys.

Well this is what happens when they do catch criminals; 23 out of 24 of Martin Hyland's gang had been allowed out on bail when charged with various crimes. Catching them seems to be no good going by that :mad:

hellboy99

ziggy67 wrote:

There is an easy way to put the scumbags out of business: legalise drugs. Take away the reason they exist, regulate supply & tax it

Prohibition simply doesn't work anyway, so why not??

That won't work at all, you'll just end up creating a black market for drugs and your back to square one.

Sangre

hellboy99 wrote:

That won't work at all, you'll just end up creating a black market for drugs and your back to square one.

And that doeesn't happen with alcohol because?

hellboy99

Sangre wrote:

And that doeesn't happen with alcohol because?

1. Cheap drink from the north.
2. Cheap cider here & Buckfast.
3. Drugs are cheaper than a nights worth of drinking.

Laslo

Very nice experience last night. Lying on the couch, I heard a rake of what sounded like gunshots going off outside. I thought "nah, couldn't have been what it sounded like". Then, less than 10 minutes later, a load of squad cars and an ambulance went screaming past outside. Obviously, I assumed it was a shooting. I went outside a few minutes later and the forensics tent was up outside Mace, just a few yards up the road from my apartment. Lovely.

When opposition leaders start blaming the government though, that's where I have to draw the line. There'll always be sub-human filth out there who are prepared to slaughter people (both innocent and equally guilty) and that's just a fact of life. It's not really the governments fault as such. What they should be doing is introducing draconian laws - regardless of who's in power. You're caught with a firearm? Life in prison. You're kidnap someone? Life in prison. Armed robbery? Life in prison. GBH on an innocent bystander or reveller? Life in prison. Repeat offenders of serious crimes? Life in prison.

That's really all that's going to work. Letting murderers and violent criminals out of jail after 3 or 4 years is essentially saying that what they're doing isn't really that bad. "Neeeeah Jaysus, I did me stretch, piece o' bleedin' cake... Oi'll go on rob anoder bank... neeeeeeeh". People who commit these crimes shouldn't be given slaps on the wrist and released. They should be taken away from the public that they're such a danger to. Jesus. I wouldn't have thought it was so complicated :rolleyes:

Sangre

Drink is cheap in Ireland....sorry, what?

As you may not have noticed, not everyone leaves in Louth. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of Irish people don't border the North.
So obviously price isn't an issue, so if it isn't then why would cheap drugs affect a booze black market? Anyway, if people drugged as much as they boozed it wouldn't be cheap.

Also, the cost of drugs are from the smuggling costs not production. Who is to say taxed, legal drugs wouldn't be the same price? Would there be a black market then?

hellboy99

Sangre wrote:

Drink is cheap in Ireland....sorry, what?

As you may not have noticed, not everyone leaves in Louth. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of Irish people don't border the North.
So obviously price isn't an issue, so if it isn't then why would cheap drugs affect a booze black market? Anyway, if people drugged as much as they boozed it wouldn't be cheap.

Also, the cost of drugs are from the smuggling costs not production. Who is to say taxed, legal drugs wouldn't be the same price? Would there be a black market then?

From what I saw today in Dunnes you can get a 3ltr bottle of cider for round €5, Dutch Gold and Buckfast must be cheap as I see kids and I mean kids, ranging from 9 - 14 every weekend drinking the stuff.
As for you saying "if people drugged as much as they boozed it wouldn't be cheap", from what I have seen and heard in the past €20 - €40 in pills keep a lot of people on a so called "buzz" for the night, so in that respect then yes it's cheaper. I have gone out many a weekend in the past and spent €200+ on drink (thank god I don't drink anymore). As for making drugs legal now the government would most certainly tax it and tax it high, and why not, look at how much they make from the smokers each year.

Capt'n Midnight

User45701 wrote:

Ive always believed in death for crimanals because i dont want to have to pay for there food and heat and there entertainment.
I think the best way to solve our problems is intorduce some sort of forced labour for prisioners.

Also jail time sneed to be extended by 3 or 4 times what they are now, life might actually mean life and robing a fone wont be worth it anymore neither will assault

In the US constant appeals against the death penalty means it costs more to kill someone than keep then in prison for the rest of their natural.

yeah prision is supposed to reform and keep dangerous people off the street, I would agree that habbitual criminals should get increasing longer sentences where there is no evidence of better behaviour (evidence not words/opinions), and the longer sentence is to keep them off the streets, if they have shown they ain't changing

*Puts on right wing hat* Maybe something as simple as making any time for crimes commited on bail to be consecutive, so there is none of this " It can't get worse" attitude.


But overall Drugs are the main problem, if there was a solution to the drugs problem in two Dublin postal districts and certain parts of Limerick then levels of crime would half. With relatively full employment (if you are prepared to take a crap job), even junkies can get jobs on building sites, has the old solution of giving people jobs has gone as far as it can go ?

Perhaps something as fluffy as legalising prostitution might be an option (with draconian punishments for living on imoral earnings of others), to take that source of income away, or maybe just better rehab facilities so women don't have to turn to prostitution, - 95% of those on the street in the UK are on drugs ( BBC Radio 4 )

we need a carrot and stick approach, punish wrong doing, but reward the decent folk and those who try to change, rather than just ingnoring the plight of those left behind by the celtic tiger.

"anyone can have a child but you need a license to have a kid"
"a persons character is formed by the time they are 7" ( or is it 13 ?)
studies in the US are claimed to show that there is lower crime after abortion was available , whether this is because less unloved children or it's more like the coincidence in the 60's between the increases in smoking and TV aerials ( TV aerials cause lung cancer !!!) is a matter for debate.
But what is not open to debate is that very little is spent on primary school kids, even though they need less money than secondary or uni. maybe more hostels or other institutions or help for parents or having all kids see a shrink so that anti-social tendencies can be corrected or at least noted early on before they are set in their ways.

Another option for drug dealers would be to pay some third world country (poor but not corrupt) to house them in their prisons, again after all hopes of reform are gone.

does anyone have any stats on re-offending?
bearing in mind that not all later crimes are detected the rate of re-offending would of course be higher.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hagar wrote:

Ok just to recap. I never said the plumber was in any way a criminal. I did say that there was a likelihood that he knew the dealer. Why did I say that?

Look at what happened, a major drug dealer is sleeping in his brother's house. All the family member's have gone out and left him asleep. Right. Alone unguarded from his many enemies, except for 2 lads doing a nixer plumbing. One of those goes off on an errand of some kind leaving a drug lord / gun dealer asleep in an otherwise empty house except for a young lad who everone claims didn't know whose house he was in. Christ, you could make a damn good living selling magic beans in this town.

Put yourself in the dealers shoes. Imagine how he lives his life, constantly looking over his shoulder watching out for his rivals who would kill him given half a chance. So he sleeps soundly while a total stranger works alone in his house!!! Can you see where my scepticism arises? The dealer must have known and trusted young lad to sleep so soundly that even the noise of the work didn't awaken him. By the same logic, it is also likely that whoever carried out the murders may have been recognised by the plumber because he probably knew the lie of the land regarding the dealer and his enemies. Now once again I'm reapeating that I don't think the plumber was a criminal or was involved in drugs or gun.

I'd lay even money that the house wasn't as empty as has been reported, I'd put more money down that people saw more than they are admitting and that the family know the criminals will not be caught because "nobody saw nothing, never heard anything, wasn't even there". That's the way it's always been, that's the way it always will be. I'd give good odds the the Gardaí won't even come within sniffing distance of who did it.

When your in a hole...................

Sangre

hellboy99 wrote:

As for making drugs legal now the government would most certainly tax it and tax it high, and why not, look at how much they make from the smokers each year.

And yet the smokers still pay the taxes and don't turn to the blackmarket....how odd.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Guys, guys, guys.... :rolleyes:

The government can not make narcotics legal!.

There are EU and international laws governing the shipment, supply and selling of narcotics so the argument re. making them legal is a mute one.

Thats all I want to say on that one!.

Thank you.