Crime out of control in this country

14/12/2006 - 00:44:37

A man has been shot dead in Dublin in the latest of a series of gangland killings.

The fatal gun attack near the capital’s financial district last night follows a double murder that saw one of the state’s biggest drug dealers killed and claimed the life of an innocent 20 yea old.

The latest victim, a 25-year-old from the north inner city, was known to police.

He was shot a number of times by gunmen at around 9pm in Mayor Street near the Irish Financial Services Centre and died a short time later in the Mater Hospital.

The killing is the sixth violent death – and forth fatal shooting – in less than a week.

The incident has brought the number of violent deaths this year to 62, including 24 gun-killings, the highest level for almost a decade.

Tuesday saw the fatal double shooting drug baron Marlo Hyland in Scribblestown Park in Finglas, and apprentice plumber Anthony Campbell who was working in the house at the same time.

Hyland, 39, one of the country’s biggest drug dealers, was hit six times in the head and body as he slept in an upstairs bedroom in a relatives house.

The killing of the innocent bystander was condemned by the victims family who banded the gunmen shooting.

Meanwhile, detectives in Dundalk are continuing to investigate the murder of a 37 year old in the townland of Dromad after carjackers rammed a vehicle in which he was a passenger.

Police both north and south of the border have joined the hunt for the machete-wielding gang which killed the man after an hour-long carjacking spree. The group is believed to have fled to the North.

On Friday afternoon postmaster Alan Cunniffe was shot dead in Kilkenny during a botched robbery, while Dubliner Eddie McCabe died on Friday night, a week after he was savagely attacked by thugs who dumped him in a lane.


11/12/2006

A man was shot at a graveyard in Dundalk, he was attending a funeral in St Patrick’s Cemetery in Dowdalshill.

I think it's about time the Gardai were armed with guns, even better bring in the death penalty. There's no fear what’s so ever with criminals in this country and who can blame them with a mess of a so called justice system we have. God, if you don't have a TV licence you can be fined and sent to prison, if you go out joyriding you get a slap on the wrist and sent back out into the community, it's a joke :mad:

KerranJast

I think it's about time the Gardai were armed with guns, even better bring in the death penalty.

Yeah because that's worked so well in the US hasn't it.

We may need extra armed response Garda teams like the ERU. Arming your average Garda would be crazy. Ireland's consitution thankfully prohibits the reinstatement of the death penalty as does EU law to which we are a signatory. If you are unfairly convicted of a crime as it stands you can appeal your sentence and have the conviction repealed. That's not much good to you when you're dead.

Sad Professor

Guards with guns = bad idea

We need a proper criminal task force with the right training to deal with these f**kers. The guards (armed or not) just aren't up to it.

Bringing in the death penalty wouldn't have any effect IMO.

KerranJast

KerranJast wrote:

Yeah because that's worked so well in the US hasn't it.

We may need extra armed response Garda teams like the ERU. Arming your average Garda would be crazy. Ireland's consitution thankfully prohibits the reinstatement of the death penalty as does EU law to which we are a signatory. If you are unfairly convicted of a crime as it stands you can appeal your sentence and have the conviction repealed. That's not much good to you when you're dead.

You have a point in what you say but what else can be done to deter criminals getting out of hand here. You can't defend yourself in your own home (yet), you can't carry protection i.e. Mace. With last night’s going on here in Dundalk with the carjackings, if that was tried on myself I’d run them over, but if I did I'd be the one going to jail !
We the public it seems have no rights what so ever, drug baron Marlo Hyland was told by Gardai his life was in danger, like what’s going on there , Gardai protecting the biggest drug lord in the country, the mind boggles.

Sparky

I personally felt shocked when I heard that the plumber got killed because he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

FFS a lad trying to make a living.

I feel we have gone back 10 years in terms of the crime levels. The government are playing a snakes and ladders game and tbh it just feels like we have fell back to square one.

Rudolph Claus

Did they shoot that poor young plumber lad by accident or to hide their identity? Could they not wear balaclavas to hide their identity? Who in their right mind would identify them psychos anyway? Its not as if that young lad would identify them because they killed some scumbag drug dealer anyway. Most peoples attitude to them killings where gangmembers hill other gang members is to just leave them at it, why would your ordinary joe soap want to get mixed up in that crap. Unless they shot someone personal to you you wouldnt be bothered identifing them.

So why then did they feel the need to shoot a young lad of 20 that wasnt a threat to them? Or was it an accident? Maybe they thought he was a member of the gang of the dealer they were shooting? You`d like to think it was an accident but maybe thats just me being naive. Anyone know how many times that unfortunate lad was shot?

in relation to that Dundalk hijacking,,, thats the 3rd similar incident of such hijackings in about 2months of where the thugs seem to have come down from the north and fled back to the north via seriously violent car-jackings. Anyone remember that incident last month(i think it was last month) where they battered an old woman to get her car and crashed about 5different cars before escaping. The guards seem to be useless at catching these knobs. I meant the whole crimespree from these 3 incidents im referring to lasted over an hour and yet the guards still couldnt catch them despite about 50 seperate complaints being made to them about these groups actions.

spanner

I dont think we need to arm Gardai or bring back the death penalty what we really need to do is to catch these guys.

The Gardai is A force low in moral and has low public confidence, What we need are more gardai and better trained gardai. Bring in laws such as the rico law in america so as to target everyone in a gang right the way up and not have the gardai fighting with one arm tied behind their back. As it stands the average gard does not want to be armed, so I dont think it would be a good idea.

I think we should look to the sucess of the NYPD in their zero tolerance of crime and organized crime during the 90s. We really need to take the fight to them, make sure if they take a life in cold blood, they spend the rest of their days in prison

SimpleSam06

Theres something badly wrong with that situation alright. I mean one, they knew he was the biggest drug dealer in the country, and two, for some reason he wasn't behind bars already. Whiskey, tango, foxtrot?

Black Swan

hellboy99 wrote:

I think it's about time the Gardai were armed with guns, even better bring in the death penalty.

The USA can send you Bush after he is forced to leave office in two years. He is a strong advocate of gun carrying cops and the death penalty. He also brought private sector prisons to Texas, operated for a profit and traded on their stock exchange (the more prisoners, the more profit!). And just maybe after everyone starts carrying guns, Ireland can start putting troops on the USA warplanes heading to the Middle East out of Shannon and really get into the action, huh?

Oh, before you start pushing for a death penalty law, you might want to compare the violent crime rates in the USA between those states with the death penalty and those without? It so happens that the states without the death penalty have lower violent crime rates! (Oh, you don't have to trust to what I say, just get on the US Bureau of Criminal Justice Statistics online site and compare). Hummmmmmm? Maybe those states without the death penalty evidence a culture that's less violent than the Texas gunslinging-like states where they shoot first and ask questions later (just like the former Texas Governor now President Bush's attitude in the States and in Iraq)?

FranknFurter

KerranJast wrote:

Yeah because that's worked so well in the US hasn't it.

Funny how everyone says that and forgets that it worked very well in France.:rolleyes:

B

admiralofthefleet

voilence has gotten totally out of control, that bloke who was shot in the ifsc has since died, and an innocent lad doing his job is brutally killed so he couldnt id the assasin.....the list goes on and on and will be added to over the coming months, but there is no question of the death penalty being re-introduced, didnt we vote to outlaw it a few years ago and also that it would not be re-introduced under any circumstances, it was passed by 86% on the same day we passed the good friday agreement if memory serves me correctly.

Ruu_Old

Very sad about the plumber chap who got caught up in this mess. Its just not on and something has to be done about it whether zero tolerance or more heavy handed task force to deal with these criminals. Some reading on the death penalty, don't think it can be re-introduced.

Our man in Havana

It can be if that section of the consituition is ammended. Unlikely it would ever happen. Deportation to Saudi Arabia might be a better solution.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

il gatto

All the guards and guns in the world are no good if they're sat in the station. Fact.
The rot in the justice system is rife. People blame the judges for letting people off too easily. Some people say they understand the Guards frustration with judges, who after bringing a criminal to court, release them or give them short sentences. Some Guards use this as a justification for not bothering. No point increasing the workload if the judges aren't going to bother punishing the criminal properly. Right? Wrong. The Guards are duty bound, and paid bloody well, to catch and bring charges against criminals. If you worked as a janitor, you can't tell your boss that there's no point emptying a bin, because someone will throw rubbish in it the next day. It doesn't matter. That's what you're paid to do. Likewise for the Guards. If the judge wants to reward criminals with a large novelty cheque and a Bewley's hamper, that's neither here nor there.
Under resourced or not, there's no excuse for laziness, corruption and ineptitude.

User45701

Ive always believed in death for crimanals because i dont want to have to pay for there food and heat and there entertainment.
I think the best way to solve our problems is intorduce some sort of forced labour for prisioners.

Also jail time sneed to be extended by 3 or 4 times what they are now, life might actually mean life and robing a fone wont be worth it anymore neither will assault

Hagar

There's more to this than meets the eye.

The plumber's uncle was interviewed on the News last night and said that the lad had been laid off from work and was at the house doing a nixer. Nixers are usually word of mouth jobs done for people you know and trust who won't inform on you to the Social Welfare. So there must be some connection there, the customer must have been known to the plumber. The plumber was from St. Michans House. A very working class address, for that read the non-working class. Hold off on the moral indignation, we all know that these Corporation Flats complexes, while they do have many decent residents, are spawning grounds for ciminals. I'm not implying that the plumber was a criminal in any way, except perhaps if you count Social Welfare Fraud. If you grow up in these complexes you have to know who is who, even if it's just to stay out of their way. My money is on the plumber knowing the drug dealer, knowing him well enough to be trusted but having no drug connection himself. It's a very strong possiblity that the muderer(s) were recognised by the plumber and that he was killed out of hand to protect their identity. It's aslo a good bet that the family have a damn good idea who did it but know that the criminals are un-touchable hence their declaration that "they will never be caught". Bertie said in the Dáil that the intended victim was a major player in the gun and drugs rackets. If this was known to the the State why wasn't he under 24hr surveillance? Aside from intelligence gathering this would have saved two lives and possible led to the capture of one or more gunmen who are now roaming our streets.
The Gardaí would want to get their act together before these criminal elements completely take over the country. The old excuse was that vast amounts of manpower were tied up in the fight against the paramilitaries. That threat seems to have died down. It's time to expend the same effort on these thugs and murderers who it seems do what they like.

ciarsd

Hagar wrote:

...was at the house doing a nixer. Nixers are usually word of mouth jobs done for people you know and trust who won't inform on you to the Social Welfare. So there must be some connection there, the customer must have been known to the plumber.

Thats hardly a fair comment, given that we know little or nothing about this young, presumably innocent, lad.

You are aware that the house the young plumber was working in was not the murdered drug dealers house? And that he (the dealer) was staying there as a 'guest' (for want of a better term).

Personally, I'm shocked at the amount of gangland hits this year, and also by the amount of murders/killings - non gang related :eek:

Sparky

I did hear he got laid off, but infact he was doing a nixer but was helping a friend do the nixer. The friend went off to the shops only to come back to find what had just happened.

Hagar

ciarsd wrote:

Thats hardly a fair comment, given that we know little or nothing about this young, presumably innocent, lad.

You are aware that the house the young plumber was working in was not the murdered drug dealers house? And that he (the dealer) was staying there as a 'guest' (for want of a better term).

Personally, I'm shocked at the amount of gangland hits this year, and also by the amount of murders/killings - non gang related :eek:

As I said given where he lives and the fact that he was doing a nixer in the drug dealer's family member's house (Aertel Info) that "my money is on the plumber knowing the drug dealer, knowing him well enough to be trusted but having no drug connection himself." No accusing the poor unfortunate at all. Simply knowing who these people are puts your life in peril.

/Edit Just saw Sparky-s's post. You don't help do a nixer, you do a nixer.
Or do you mean the friend knew the dealer, good point.

connundrum

Hagar wrote:

The plumber's uncle was interviewed on the News last night and said that the lad had been laid off from work and was at the house doing a nixer. Nixers are usually word of mouth jobs done for people you know and trust who won't inform on you to the Social Welfare.

Ah yes. And last week I was in my local Spar where the local drug dealer may have been present at exactly the same time. Theres more to it than meets the eye obviously!

He was doing a nixer, the dealers auntie probably heard that the young lad would do a nixer and got him over to the dealers house. This is how nixers work.

I wish to God that the judicial system would actually do their job. How will a criminal be deterred when he knows for a fact that he will serve a maximum of a couple of months for a serious crime?? We read every day about scumbags receiving suspended sentences for committing some awful crimes, why would you stop living the bad life when you're not going to be punished for it??

A huge percentage of criminals will reoffend within a couple of months of being released - we need to put them away for longer!!

If we don't have enough prison places then fix it! Build another one, build another 5, I don't care tbh. How can a whole housing estate be built in 8 months, and it takes years for a single prison to be built?? If someone beats up and stabs a pregnant woman, I want them to do at least 10 years!

The punishment simply does not fit the crime in the country, and that is why the scummers are laughing at us.

/end rant.

Sparky

Hagar wrote:

/Edit Just saw Sparky-s's post. You don't help do a nixer, you do a nixer.

In all due respect Hagar. I have helped out fellow friends do a nixer and have got half the earnings. I'd consider myself had of helped doing the nixer rather than just doing it.

One more point to mention is that although some may reckon he was aware of the drug dealer, he was helping a friend out on the job. The drug dealer was up in bed. I don't even think the lad even met the drug dealer or even knew it was his house, as they arrived when the wife and kids were there, so I assume the wife opened the door and let the lads commence the work.

The wife and kid(s) had left when the shooters came in.

The main plumber may have known, but then again may have not. The drug dealers wife could have asked for the job to be done.

ferdi

FranknFurter wrote:

Funny how everyone says that and forgets that it worked very well in France.:rolleyes:

B

yeah, cause there is no crime in france

Hagar

ferdi wrote:

yeah, cause there is no crime in france

There's plenty of it over here, but if they are caught they don't get a slap on the wrist.

Sorry Sparky-s you're correct. See my edit above, I didn't realise the contact may have been through the other guy on the job. My mistake.:o

gazzer

My mother knows the young lads granny.. She was telling me that his brother committed suicide a couple of years back cos of bullying... Very very sad for the whole family.. His uncle was on Liveline yesterday and apparantly gave a very heartfelt talk about the effect this lads death is having on the family.

To the guy who was talking about St. Michans House being a non working area its not true.. the majority of the people who live there work.. a lot of them work in Moore St on the fruit stalls.. My mother and her sisters and brothers all grew up there.. they all work.. most of the people that they know who still live there work..

Sonderval

Arming Gardai is not the answer, nor is re-instatement of the death penalty (which we cannot do anyways).

The problem, in my opinion, is the Justice systems unwillingness to impose meaningful sentences on convicts. As it stands, criminals can participate in violent crime and be walking the streets within 1-2 years. This is simply unacceptable. The judges lean far to often on the side of light sentencing, usually because higher sentences may get succesfully appealed by another judge.

I am personally for very harsh sentences - I believe that longer sentences would act as a strong deterrent. I'm talking the 10+ year mark here. Also, when you are convicted of life imprisonment, you get exactly that. A wilful murderer should never be allowed to walk free again.

We really need more prisons in Ireland. And to those who espouse the view that a country's prison service reflects its society (i.e the treatment of prisoners), well, they should really get with the times. Innocents are being murdered - society needs to instill some fear into getting jailed, rather then the minor incovenience it appears to be now...

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hagar wrote:

There's more to this than meets the eye.

The plumber's uncle was interviewed on the News last night and said that the lad had been laid off from work and was at the house doing a nixer. Nixers are usually word of mouth jobs done for people you know and trust who won't inform on you to the Social Welfare. So there must be some connection there, the customer must have been known to the plumber. The plumber was from St. Michans House. A very working class address, for that read the non-working class. Hold off on the moral indignation, we all know that these Corporation Flats complexes, while they do have many decent residents, are spawning grounds for ciminals. I'm not implying that the plumber was a criminal in any way, except perhaps if you count Social Welfare Fraud. If you grow up in these complexes you have to know who is who, even if it's just to stay out of their way. My money is on the plumber knowing the drug dealer, knowing him well enough to be trusted but having no drug connection himself. It's a very strong possiblity that the muderer(s) were recognised by the plumber and that he was killed out of hand to protect their identity. It's aslo a good bet that the family have a damn good idea who did it but know that the criminals are un-touchable hence their declaration that "they will never be caught". Bertie said in the Dáil that the intended victim was a major player in the gun and drugs rackets. If this was known to the the State why wasn't he under 24hr surveillance? Aside from intelligence gathering this would have saved two lives and possible led to the capture of one or more gunmen who are now roaming our streets.
The Gardaí would want to get their act together before these criminal elements completely take over the country. The old excuse was that vast amounts of manpower were tied up in the fight against the paramilitaries. That threat seems to have died down. It's time to expend the same effort on these thugs and murderers who it seems do what they like.

You know what. Normally you come accross as pretty level headed. But thats just down right snobbery right there. And pretty disgusting too.

I grew up in Ballymun, my family still lives in Ballymun in fact and I 'nor any of them would know a drug dealer if they bite us on the arse.

Infact I asked my wife this morning about the guy murdered in Mayor St. last night, and she told me she wouldn't know any of those people either. And she grew up in Sheriff St. (same area, locals would collectively call the area ie Commons St. Mayor St. Sheriff St, Seville Plc etc ''Sheriffer''.. )

Nixer's. Although I'm a member of the Defence Forces I've done various nixers over the year's. Doesn't mean a thing, most working class families will get a nixer at some time.

Honestly, you've just come accross as a middle class snob with this reply.

Btw, download the uncles interview with Joe Duffy (yesterday, 13th Dec) and come back with that same reply!.

kevmy

I don't think crime as such is out of control in this country. Outside a few areas there isn't that much random crime.
The gangland scene is different however. It's gettin a bit out of control. There is a need for more Gardai on the job and to be specificaly targetted at the gangs. Fortunately normal people don't usually get caught up in there killings. Thats probably why this particular case is so emotional with the poor young lad getting shot for being in the right place at the right time.

Hagar

As I said, cue moral indignation. I grew up in the inner city and I spent most of my life working there including the Moore St are so I know the score. Certain areas in Dublin, and other cities, have reputations as being rough. These reps are usually well earned. That doesn't mean that the aren't lots of decent, honest hardworking people there, it just means the bad people are more prominent. The only way for decent people to live there is to know who is who. Who not to cross, and usually to know some thug well enough to offer you and you family some protection as one of his "buddies". Have a read of this recent thread in Motors where a guy's car is interferred with and he solves the problem by setting a local hardman on the car thieves. maybe you didn't know that that's the way the world works in some parts of the city. People either have no respect or no faith in the Gardaí.

You're right I'm normally a level headed guy, maybe it was a mistake to air my thoughts. I'm sorry if I've mentioned in public what a lot of people know goes on but don't openly acknowledge. As for calling me a snob, what can I say, you don't know me at all. I'm just a Joe Soap with a Dublin accent, same as the next guy trying to get by, I work for myself and I drive a 97 Citroen Estate with 164,000 miles on the clock. I'm working class with no illusions about myself, my background or my prospects. As a snob I'm a bit of a failure wouldn't you say? So easy with the name calling please.

CiaranC

1. Crime is not out of control is this country by any stretch of the imagination. Crime rates are fairly low even by european standards.

2. Tabloid hysteria about crime is out of control in this country.

3. None of the crime problems we do have are going away, ever. They are fueled by drug prohibition; the solution is to remove it and thats never going to happen. Instead we'll get hand wringing by AH posters, Joe Duffy listeners (are these two the same, Im starting to think so) and the standard guff from politicians (more gardai, longer sentences, tougher laws etc. - none of these will have any effect).

Sonderval

more gardai, longer sentences, tougher laws etc. - none of these will have any effect

I disagree on the last point, though that is entirely personal (I did a quick search for any research to back up the belief that long sentences deter criminals), but didn't find anything.

Drug legalistation is not a viable solution to this problem either - one need only look at the state of alcholism in Ireland to appreciate the danger.

Crime will always be an issue, but one cannot deny that with the increasing uptake in weaponry by even petty criminals, the problem is become magnified to a much larger extent.

gurramok

CiaranC, tell that to the Mace workers who are now traumitised as a result of the shooting in the IFSC last night never mind those living in the apartments and those in national college of ireland.
I missed that incident by 30minutes, it could of been me caught up in it.
I also live near the double murder scene in which such an event doesnt shock me anymore as i'm used to all the crap happening over the years.

4 INNOCENT people have been murdered this year as a result of shootings not to mention the countless witnesses who have been caught in shootings whether someone was injured(or not) or murdered, they are all traumitised and will need counselling to get over it.

As i mentioned before on boards, 90% of 120 odd gun murders in last 10 years remain unsolved, its an law enforcement problem and yes legalising drugs will help reducing it imho.

But..22 of 30 gang members locally who were caught with huge hauls of drugs and possesion of firearms are out on bail awaiting trial, to intimidate as they please, absolute joke.

empirix

Just to clarify something, "Marlo" was hiding out in his 'niece's' house and so it was probably her who contacted somebody for the nixer, although the fact that he lay asleep while two dudes were in the house working and had no worries, especially after being warned on his life is another thing. Although again, this man was Mr.Big in Ireland and so you could argue that he wouldn't of gave a rats about some plumbers working in the house and might also of doubted the fact that somebody would be foolish enough to "hit" hm.

To clarify another point, from what was probably the most ignorant post here, about the young plumber recognising the killers because his from the city - don't be so fukcing stupid - this was a professional hit without a doubt, this wasn't the local boyos' like them in Limerick, the hitman(men) had surveillance in place, new when to make the move and used a 'silencer' - wiped out the plumber because he couldn't give any help to the Gardai that might risk him/she/them getting caught. Making a hit on such a big dealer, you don't want any chance of being id'd - very ruthless but very professional. RIP

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hagar wrote:

As I said, cue moral indignation. I grew up in the inner city and I spent most of my life working there including the Moore St are so I know the score. Certain areas in Dublin, and other cities, have reputations as being rough. These reps are usually well earned. That doesn't mean that the aren't lots of decent, honest hardworking people there, it just means the bad people are more prominent. The only way for decent people to live there is to know who is who. Who not to cross, and usually to know some thug well enough to offer you and you family some protection as one of his "buddies". Have a read of this recent thread in Motors where a guy's car is interferred with and he solves the problem by setting a local hardman on the car thieves. maybe you didn't know that that's the way the world works in some parts of the city. People either have no respect or no faith in the Gardaí.

You're right I'm normally a level headed guy, maybe it was a mistake to air my thoughts. I'm sorry if I've mentioned in public what a lot of people know goes on but don't openly acknowledge. As for calling me a snob, what can I say, you don't know me at all. I'm just a Joe Soap with a Dublin accent, same as the next guy trying to get by, I work for myself and I drive a 97 Citroen Estate with 164,000 miles on the clock. I'm working class with no illusions about myself, my background or my prospects. As a snob I'm a bit of a failure wouldn't you say? So easy with the name calling please.

Thanks for the reply. But honestly, I think you are way off the mark in your 'thoughts'. Probably like you I call a spade a spade, but you really shouldn't have tried to make the connection between an innocent murder victim and the scumbag who was murdered in the same house.

As regards the name calling, come on now, calling you a "snob" is hardly offensive considering the things you said about that poor lad, his family and those living around him. Its how you came across, thats all... Btw, you should have heard what my wife called you after reading your remarks... lol

Seriously, and not a rebuke. You should download Joe Duffy's interview with the kids uncle yesterday. Its a very moving portrayal of a lovely young fella, from a very articulate uncle, who (btw) grew up in the same flats and is a teacher!.

But anyway this is getting way off topic.

In dealing with these murder's, rapists, gangsters etc while Paul Williams (Sunday World) appear's to be the man with his finger on the pulse when he talks about the judicial system, its failings. The Dept. of Justice's failing the Gardai, the failure of the bail & libel law's.

-Mairt

SimpleSam06

Sonderval wrote:

We really need more prisons in Ireland. And to those who espouse the view that a country's prison service reflects its society (i.e the treatment of prisoners), well, they should really get with the times. Innocents are being murdered - society needs to instill some fear into getting jailed, rather then the minor incovenience it appears to be now...

No, we don't need more prisons in Ireland, we need less prisons, that means we as a society are doing something right. And we don't need more guards on the street, the more police you have out there, the more people you have in prison. Thats the simple fact of it. And we certainly don't need them armed.

I suggested this before on boards, and I'll suggest it again now. For lifetime criminals and those that refuse to reform, and/or those who commit particularily horrendous crimes, ship them off to serve their sentences in a nice little south east asian prison.

A few years in Hondo correctional will make a model citizen out of the most cocky scofflaw, guaranteed. And as I mentioned before, the south east asian government in question could certainly use the coin, so everyone wins. We can tell them they won't get any more contracts if the hard man in question doesn't make it back assus intactus or something. Whatever.

The punishments meted out by society are not enough to deter people like this, so those punishments need to change.

Edit: Oh yes and for bonus points, this will save the Irish taxpayer countless millions.

Sam Vimes

ziggy67 wrote:

There is an easy way to put the scumbags out of business: legalise drugs. Take away the reason they exist, regulate supply & tax it

Prohibition simply doesn't work anyway, so why not??

there's rapes and murders despite them being prohibited. "its going to happen anyway" isn't a reason to legalise something. howver, taking drugs harms no one but the taker so i think it should be legalised

Hagar

Mairt wrote:

but you really shouldn't have tried to make the connection between an innocent murder victim and the scumbag who was murdered in the same house.

As regards the name calling, come on now, calling you a "snob" is hardly offensive considering the things you said about that poor lad, his family and those living around him. Its how you came across, thats all... Btw, you should have heard what my wife called you after reading your remarks... lol

Seriously, and not a rebuke. You should download Joe Duffy's interview with the kids uncle yesterday.

The only connection I made was suggesting that because it was a nixer he might know the guy. As I said since in an earlier post I didn't realise it wasn't his nixer so he mightn't have known him at all. I never said calling me a snob was offensive, I just said I wasn't a snob and asked you to "go easy" with the name calling. It's attacking me personally and not what I posted although not as bad as

Empirix wrote:

what was probably the most ignorant post here, about the young plumber recognising the killers because his from the city - don't be so fukcing stupid

which I would consider to be full on abusive. I may be in the wrong, but show me to be wrong and I'll listen, don't call me ignorant and fúcking stupid.

You don't often see innocent bystanders killed like this. It wasn't reported as a ricochet or anything so the guys must have thought they had good reason to kill the young lad. The only one I conclusion I can come to is he must have been in a position to identify them either by seeing their faces or recognising them.

I'll download the Joe Duffy link and have a listen.

KerranJast

It really bugs me when the country goes hysterical over drug related shootings when those drug dealers are in business due to the demand from "decent" society. The current drug feuds are over cannabis and cocaine not heroin and where is the demand for those drugs coming from? Not deprived areas like traditionally heroin was, but from the middle class, the same people outraged over drug related killings. People need to start connecting the dots between the coke and hash they buy and the feuding over who controls the market. Lest we forget John Gilligan made his fortune with hash which has mass market "appeal". The current gang crime can only be stopped with increased Garda resources targeted at the gangs and a serious crack down on the demand for drugs not just supply therefore harsher penalties for possession are needer similar to New York.

The Hill Billy

Someone in Leinster House must have been reading this thread this morning. They're throwing an extra 20 Gardai at organised crime.

That'll have those crims quaking in their boots.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Hagar wrote:

The only connection I made was suggesting that because it was a nixer he might know the guy. As I said since in an earlier post I didn't realise it wasn't his nixer so he mightn't have known him at all. I never said calling me a snob was offensive, I just said I wasn't a snob and asked you to "go easy" with the name calling. It's attacking me personally and not what I posted although not as bad as
which I would consider to be full on abusive. I may be in the wrong, but show me to be wrong and I'll listen, don't call me ignorant and fúcking stupid.

You don't often see innocent bystanders killed like this. It wasn't reported as a ricochet or anything so the guys must have thought they had good reason to kill the young lad. The only one I conclusion I can come to is he must have been in a position to identify them either by seeing their faces or recognising them.

I'll download the Joe Duffy link and have a listen.

Honestly, I wasn't getting into name calling. But what you implied about the lad was very unfair.

I don't have the time to go back qouting what you said, but "there's more to this than meets the eye" suggests you knew something the rest of us didn't.

You also said "So there must be some connection there, the customer must have been known to the plumber.". Why?.

When Jimmy Curran was shot dead in the Green Lizard did he know the people in the bar, and if he did were they also guilty by association?.

ANyway, this is nit picking. I just thought you were out of line impling there was a close connection between 'Mr Big' & the murdered lad.

Btw, had this young lad been from Malahide, Foxrock or anyother middleclass area of the city would you have tried to make the association between him and the intended victim?... I think not.

As regards your '97 Citroen.. You don't need material wealth to be considered a snob!... But I take your word for it that your not one.

ScumLord

Arming thick muck savages with a chip on their sholder is not the answer. I'm convinced all this crime is down to big citys and the loss of community. It's just going to keep getting worse and worse as long as we continue to make the same mistakes as other countrys.

Sangre

Sonderval wrote:

I am personally for very harsh sentences - I believe that longer sentences would act as a strong deterrent. I'm talking the 10+ year mark here. Also, when you are convicted of life imprisonment, you get exactly that. A wilful murderer should never be allowed to walk free again.

Unfortunately Sonderval studies have shown time and time again that longer sentences for serious* crimes have negigible effect on crime levels. If you put a gun to someone heads to kill them in cold blooded murder, its not because you might only get 10 rather than 30 years, its because you're a heartless scumbag.

If you want to tackle crime you need to go to the root of the problem, not the leaves. That is tackle poverty, low education, victimisation and social disorganisation.

*I'm talking rape, serious assualt, murder etc.,

arybvtcw0eolkf

KerranJast wrote:

It really bugs me when the country goes hysterical over drug related shootings when those drug dealers are in business due to the demand from "decent" society. The current drug feuds are over cannabis and cocaine not heroin and where is the demand for those drugs coming from? Not deprived areas like traditionally heroin was, but from the middle class, the same people outraged over drug related killings. People need to start connecting the dots between the coke and hash they buy and the feuding over who controls the market. Lest we forget John Gilligan made his fortune with hash which has mass market "appeal". The current gang crime can only be stopped with increased Garda resources targeted at the gangs and a serious crack down on the demand for drugs not just supply therefore harsher penalties for possession are needer similar to New York.

In other words...

Everytime you do a line of coke in Foxrock, someone gets shot in Coolock.

Calibos

KerranJast wrote:

It really bugs me when the country goes hysterical over drug related shootings when those drug dealers are in business due to the demand from "decent" society. The current drug feuds are over cannabis and cocaine not heroin and where is the demand for those drugs coming from? Not deprived areas like traditionally heroin was, but from the middle class, the same people outraged over drug related killings. People need to start connecting the dots between the coke and hash they buy and the feuding over who controls the market. Lest we forget John Gilligan made his fortune with hash which has mass market "appeal". The current gang crime can only be stopped with increased Garda resources targeted at the gangs and a serious crack down on the demand for drugs not just supply therefore harsher penalties for possession are needer similar to New York.

Excellent post!

I myself have partaken in the past of all but the really hard stuff and would raise my eyes to heaven at most of the anti drugs sloganeering. "Drugs, are bad m'kay, Drugs will kill you" etc 'Decent' society in the main does heed the warnings about heroin and crack, Crystal meth etc. The sloganeering lumps coke, E's and hash in there too though and "Decent" society just rejects all the anti drugs slogans because they know the later are distinct from the former in the negative impacts.

My point is, is that this is the kind of thing that should be used on the anti drug message. Not that all drugs are devastating but that even the lesser drugs certainly don't do your health or bank balance any good, that whether they should be legalised is neither here nor there. They are illegal NOW and that it is their line on a saturday night and their spliff on Sunday morning that is driving the slaughter on the streets and the gangland crime. Use the anti drugs posters to talk to the middle class users and ask them are they really so self centred that they don't give a flying f@ck what effect their 'little' habit is having on the fabric of society.

I know that this is already one of the anti drugs message but it is out numbered by all the "All drugs are bad, M'kay" messages that no one pays any head to anyway. The Your drug use is causing the slaughter should be the main anti drug message.

I haven't done even a spliff in donkeys years anyway, but I certainly won't even be tempted to have the odd one even if offered a toke from now on.

I certainly cannot live with myself knowing I am giving one cent to the gangland scum.

Sonderval

If you put a gun to someone heads to kill them in cold blooded murder, its not because you might only get 10 rather than 30 years, its because you're a heartless scumbag.

I suspected that may be the case (re: deterrence) - however, I am sure you will agree that it would be much better to lock this person up for life, rather then have them out strolling around Dublin after only a decade. If long sentences do not act as sufficient deterrent, then the least we can do is provide a modicum of justice by ensuring such persons are not free in our society. I'm sure most victims families would agree.

Calibos, an interesting approach to solving the issue - however, I remain skeptical to the potential benefit such a campaign would reap. Unfortunately, most of the middle-class drug users who I have known would probably not be persuaded to change their habits on such a prompting.

CiaranC

Calibos wrote:

They are illegal NOW and that it is their line on a saturday night and their spliff on Sunday morning that is driving the slaughter on the streets and the gangland crime. Use the anti drugs posters to talk to the middle class users and ask them are they really so self centred that they don't give a flying f@ck what effect their 'little' habit is having on the fabric of society.

People have always used drugs and always will use drugs. The market will always exist. That is cold, inalienable fact. No amount of wishful thinking will make it go away.

Any solution that doesnt have that tenet at its centre is doomed to total failure.

empirix

Hagar wrote:

which I would consider to be full on abusive. I may be in the wrong, but show me to be wrong and I'll listen, don't call me ignorant and fúcking stupid.

You don't often see innocent bystanders killed like this. It wasn't reported as a ricochet or anything so the guys must have thought they had good reason to kill the young lad. The only one I conclusion I can come to is he must have been in a position to identify them either by seeing their faces or recognising them.

I'll download the Joe Duffy link and have a listen.

Sorry but you were ignorant and stupid, the hitman(men) are aabout to kill Irelands biggest drug dealer, do you really think they'll leave anything to chance and put themselves and their families at risk, course they were going to be brutal and kill anybody who could help the Gardai.

Hagar

Post reported. I let it go once but repeating it is pushing your luck.

When I have my dinner I'll come back with another post and if you're still here you can rebutt it.

Hagar

Ok just to recap. I never said the plumber was in any way a criminal. I did say that there was a likelihood that he knew the dealer. Why did I say that?

Look at what happened, a major drug dealer is sleeping in his brother's house. All the family member's have gone out and left him asleep. Right. Alone unguarded from his many enemies, except for 2 lads doing a nixer plumbing. One of those goes off on an errand of some kind leaving a drug lord / gun dealer asleep in an otherwise empty house except for a young lad who everone claims didn't know whose house he was in. Christ, you could make a damn good living selling magic beans in this town.

Put yourself in the dealers shoes. Imagine how he lives his life, constantly looking over his shoulder watching out for his rivals who would kill him given half a chance. So he sleeps soundly while a total stranger works alone in his house!!! Can you see where my scepticism arises? The dealer must have known and trusted young lad to sleep so soundly that even the noise of the work didn't awaken him. By the same logic, it is also likely that whoever carried out the murders may have been recognised by the plumber because he probably knew the lie of the land regarding the dealer and his enemies. Now once again I'm reapeating that I don't think the plumber was a criminal or was involved in drugs or gun.

I'd lay even money that the house wasn't as empty as has been reported, I'd put more money down that people saw more than they are admitting and that the family know the criminals will not be caught because "nobody saw nothing, never heard anything, wasn't even there". That's the way it's always been, that's the way it always will be. I'd give good odds the the Gardaí won't even come within sniffing distance of who did it.

Ruu_Old

empirix wrote:

Sorry but you were ignorant and stupid, the hitman(men) are aabout to kill Irelands biggest drug dealer, do you really think they'll leave anything to chance and put themselves and their families at risk, course they were going to be brutal and kill anybody who could help the Gardai.

You can discuss the topic without the personal shots otherwise not at all. Thanks.

spanner

spanner wrote:

I dont think we need to arm Gardai or bring back the death penalty what we really need to do is to catch these guys.

Well this is what happens when they do catch criminals; 23 out of 24 of Martin Hyland's gang had been allowed out on bail when charged with various crimes. Catching them seems to be no good going by that :mad: