So who else is sick of shell to sea?

gurramok

Steyr wrote:

In fact has anybody noticed that alot of them are not even Irish, the mojority of them are English and come over to here and other patrs of Europe as the plod in the UK are after them at home:mad: They make my blood boil and whats with them wearing "Combat" clothing?:mad: Fools.

How do you know?

I heard alot of country accents in the reports.

gandalf

mike65 wrote:

I love the soviet-era commie styled language the crusties/indymedia types use.

The No23 Leninist Collective farm Workers send best wishes across Socialist Europe to our like-minded comrades in the struggle against international capitalist tyranny. We have named our latest vegetable variation in honour of your fight - The Rossport Beetroot tastes very good!
It tastes of victory!

Mike.

LOL that last one just has to be a pisstake. Hehehe Rossport Beetroot, the only beet I see is the beat of the Garda baton on their chrusty and chuckie heads

Hmmm we could make it reality TV, call it Rossport Idol.....

Sam Vimes

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Force, to the best of my knowledge, can only be used to detain or in self defence. Warnings were given, but the Gardai were the physical aggressors and no matter how much muppetry was going on, it doesn't gave them the right to break the laws they're paid to uphold.

not for a garda afaik. if a garda always had to wait until someone punched or stabbed them, there'd be a lot of dead gardai

shell to sea are just annoying at this stage. i was listening to one of them on the radio the other day and he was calling for a public inquiry, which would of course cost millions and take years. then he made it abundantly clear (without actually saying it) that the group wouldn't accept the inquiry's recommendation unless it went their way, putting us in exactly the same position.

there have already been public inquiries. the govt and shell decided long ago that they were putting a treatment plant in rossport. if the people don't want to live near one, they can move

shell's engineers have said that putting the treatment plant out to sea is unfeasible for a project like this. i trust that these engineers went to college for a few years and know more about refining gas than the good people of rossport.

these people don't trust that the shell engineers can make a plant that doesn't explode. but all of us put our lives in the hands of engineers dozens of times every day. if they don't have it in them to trust engineers, they may as well go and live naked in the woods

Wishbone Ash

gurramok wrote:

How do you know?

I heard alot of country accents in the reports.

I think Steyr means protests in general. I have often noticed that when there is a protest about mobile telephone masts or windfarms, the persons representing the group speaks with a British accent (while others in the background are using their mobile telephones :rolleyes:).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Commander Vimes wrote:

not for a garda afaik. if a garda always had to wait until someone punched or stabbed them, there'd be a lot of dead gardai

shell to sea are just annoying at this stage. i was listening to one of them on the radio the other day and he was calling for a public inquiry, which would of course cost millions and take years. then he made it abundantly clear (without actually saying it) that the group wouldn't accept the inquiry's recommendation unless it went their way, putting us in exactly the same position.

there have already been public inquiries. the govt and shell decided long ago that they were putting a treatment plant in rossport. if the people don't want to live near one, they can move

shell's engineers have said that putting the treatment plant out to sea is unfeasible for a project like this. i trust that these engineers went to college for a few years and know more about refining gas than the good people of rossport.

these people don't trust that the shell engineers can make a plant that doesn't explode. but all of us put our lives in the hands of engineers dozens of times every day. if they don't have it in them to trust engineers, they may as well go and live naked in the woods

What about force to detain...? Not saying anyone has to wait until their punched...

The rest of my comments are meant at protests in general. It's all very well shrugging your shoulders and saying oh well, if you don't like it, you can always move, but if something was happenign in your backyard that you didn't like, would you sit back and endure it or protest?

Wishbone Ash

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

something was happenign in your backyard that you didn't like, would you sit back and endure it or protest?

There is a big difference between a peaceful protest and blocking a public road and preventing employees legitimate rights to go to work. Shell went through a long drawn out process to obtain planning permission. It also won an injunction against these people. It is not in all of the protesters 'back yard'. Sinn fein had organised buses from other counties and many people came over from Dublin to have their 'rights infringed'.

AFAIK permission is now required to organise a protest - none was given. It is a bit ironic that people who were reciting the rosary last week are now striking Gardai and using foul language.

J.R.HARTLEY

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Force, to the best of my knowledge, can only be used to detain or in self defence. Warnings were given, but the Gardai were the physical aggressors and no matter how much muppetry was going on, it doesn't gave them the right to break the laws they're paid to uphold.

Force can be used to remove people illegaly blocking public or private throughways that they may blocking.
for gods sake if they sat down in your doorway or in front of your house blocking your driveway tomorrow you'd be screaming at the gardai to move them

Badly Drunk Boy

Commander Vimes wrote:

the govt and shell decided long ago that they were putting a treatment plant in rossport. if the people don't want to live near one, they can move

What gives Shell the right to have a say in this decision? Fair enough, the government can, but why would they? I wonder if there were (m)any brown envelopes involved...

Shell is a private company. Why should they be allowed to take our natural resources? Because they have money behind them?

The protesting Crusty in this sort of situation can be annoying, but sometimes they have a point. Don't let their image distract you from the point that our resources are being taken, in return for relatively few (but dangerous) jobs, while making the area dangerous for the locals.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Wishbone Ash wrote:

There is a big difference between a peaceful protest and blocking a public road and preventing employees legitimate rights to go to work. Shell went through a long drawn out process to obtain planning permission. It also won an injunction against these people. It is not in all of the protesters 'back yard'. Sinn fein had organised buses from other counties and many people came over from Dublin to have their 'rights infringed'.

AFAIK permission is now required to organise a protest - none was given. It is a bit ironic that people who were reciting the rosary last week are now striking Gardai and using foul language.

Again, I was talking generally. If you support the gardai in this instance, do you support them if you ever find yourself on the recievng end...? As I've said before, I don't know the ins and outs of Rossport specifically, but there's a lot of people using language such as "retard hippies" and "give them an extra with the baton" who's attitudes would change PDQ if someone found oil under their flats on Dublin 9

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

Force can be used to remove people illegaly blocking public or private throughways that they may blocking.
for gods sake if they sat down in your doorway or in front of your house blocking your driveway tomorrow you'd be screaming at the gardai to move them

Does "force" mean a) removal and detention or b) throwing them over a barrier and nailing them with a baton.

If they sat down in my doorway I'd want to know why before I called the gards.

is_that_so

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

The rest of my comments are meant at protests in general. It's all very well shrugging your shoulders and saying oh well, if you don't like it, you can always move, but if something was happenign in your backyard that you didn't like, would you sit back and endure it or protest?

Yes, this is that insidious practice called nimbyism.

What I like or don't like may not be influenced by the general good. I can ask questions to understand why something is going to happen. In my part of the world even the protesters now acknowledge that an incineration plant at Duleek is required. What they now disagree with and I am with them on this is the possible expansion of it to include waste from beyond the North East. They now want to be part of the solution and that makes sense. Change is part of life and development is part of that. My reading of the Shell to Sea group is that even if they got a public enquiry, it would have to give them the answer they wanted. What Shell to Sea does, is give those around the fringes of society an opportunity to indulge their tired cliches and ultimately their fantasies for world domination.

J.R.HARTLEY

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Does "force" mean a) removal and detention or b) throwing them over a barrier and nailing them with a baton.

If they sat down in my doorway I'd want to know why before I called the gards.

depends on how they react, anyone resisting is going to require a greater effort, against an unarmed protestor though the baton should never be used, some of those people were reacting threatingly to the gardai when even a child can see that they are stuck in the middle of this mess, that teacher lady on liveline a few weeks back accused them of being in the pockets of shell! all rubbish, your comments help fuel these "liberals" and i'm sick of the uberintellectuals who go bashing gardai every time they are in action, is it any coincidence that while everything a garda does is scutinised to the nth degree that the country socially speaking is far worse than it was 20 years ago.

Wishbone Ash

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

that teacher lady on liveline a few weeks back accused them of being in the pockets of shell!

She seems to be able to dodge any questions regarding why she is not in school! I find her nauseating. She claimed yesterday that she had every right to bring her van on to the public highway. She convienently ignored that, while on a public highway, a motorist must follow any instruction given by a Garda.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

depends on how they react, anyone resisting is going to require a greater effort, against an unarmed protestor though the baton should never be used, some of those people were reacting threatingly to the gardai when even a child can see that they are stuck in the middle of this mess, that teacher lady on liveline a few weeks back accused them of being in the pockets of shell! all rubbish, your comments help fuel these "liberals" and i'm sick of the uberintellectuals who go bashing gardai every time they are in action, is it any coincidence that while everything a garda does is scutinised to the nth degree that the country socially speaking is far worse than it was 20 years ago.

Your initial question was how woudl I react. Come to think of it, no - it wasn't a question, it was a direct assumption that I'd

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

be screaming at the gardai to move them

and what exactly are you basing that on, anyway??

How do my comments fuel these "liberals"? What do you have against liberals?

Gardai in action deserve to be bashed if they go to far. And anyone has the right to criticise them and scrutinise them. If not, why is there such a thing as a Gardai Complaints Committee, or should we just assume they are always right and perfect in everything they do?

If you want the county "socially speaking" 20 years ago, can we extend the same rights to the Christian Brothers?

In conclusion - why do you beleive we should remain ignorant keep our heads down and trust the system blindly?

mike65

gandalf wrote:

LOL that last one just has to be a pisstake. Hehehe Rossport Beetroot, the only beet I see is the beat of the Garda baton on their chrusty and chuckie heads

Okay that was my own creative work!

Mike.

professore

Why don't people protest about issues that really matter - like the state of hospitals and schools - or Bertie's flagrant disregard for the law?

Wishbone Ash

professore wrote:

Bertie's flagrant disregard for the law?

????? Enlighten us!

is_that_so

Wishbone Ash wrote:

She claimed yesterday that she had every right to bring her van on to the public highway. She convienently ignored that, while on a public highway, a motorist must follow any instruction given by a Garda.

Wasn't this the mantra of the Orange Order in their confrontations with the PSNI of "their right to march along the Queen's highway" ? Not an argument and it shows an absence of any cogent logic in their protest.

J.R.HARTLEY

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Your initial question was how woudl I react. Come to think of it, no - it wasn't a question, it was a direct assumption that I'd and what exactly are you basing that on, anyway??

How do my comments fuel these "liberals"? What do you have against liberals?

Gardai in action deserve to be bashed if they go to far. And anyone has the right to criticise them and scrutinise them. If not, why is there such a thing as a Gardai Complaints Committee, or should we just assume they are always right and perfect in everything they do?

If you want the county "socially speaking" 20 years ago, can we extend the same rights to the Christian Brothers?

In conclusion - why do you beleive we should remain ignorant keep our heads down and trust the system blindly?

ok so it was an assumption, sorry, shouldn't have assumed, however why do you assume that i don't think the Gardai should ever be questioned and that we are all better off ignorant, it's a two way street, you can't criticise someone for something and then do it yourself.

i do not believe we should keep our heads down, i rather believe that there is a middle ground somewhere where not every garda is a saint and also not every garda is a vicous thug,the real world, and all too often the whole force is tarred with the same brush.
I have nothing against liberal minded people just the pretend "Liberals" hence the quotation marks, the people who get on their high horse about every little thing wrong in the state but are unwilling to actually do anything about it.


as for making smug comments about the christian brothers considering all the hurt associated with the case, bad form.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

ok so it was an assumption, sorry, shouldn't have assumed, however why do you assume that i don't think the Gardai should ever be questioned and that we are all better off ignorant, it's a two way street, you can't criticise someone for something and then do it yourself.

i do not believe we should keep our heads down, i rather believe that there is a middle ground somewhere where not every garda is a saint and also not every garda is a vicous thug,the real world, and all too often the whole force is tarred with the same brush.
I have nothing against liberal minded people just the pretend "Liberals" hence the quotation marks, the people who get on their high horse about every little thing wrong in the state but are unwilling to actually do anything about it.


as for making smug comments about the christian brothers considering all the hurt associated with the case, bad form.

I didn't assume anything, I based my opinions on words you yourself had written, especially those in which you implied that the Gardai are criticised too much and implied that society was far better socially 20 years ago because no one asked questions. The Christian Brothers comment was used to point out that society was NOT better 20 years ago, it was just projected as such because no one stood up and asked questions

There is middle ground, most defintiely, but a lot of the more conservative posters in this thread don't seem to acknowledge this, pereferring instead to believe that the gardai were automatcially correct to use violence and didn't use enough.

J.R.HARTLEY

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

I didn't assume anything, I based my opinions on words you yourself had written, especially those in which you implied that the Gardai are criticised too much and implied that society was far better socially 20 years ago because no one asked questions. The Christian Brothers comment was used to point out that society was NOT better 20 years ago, it was just projected as such because no one stood up and asked questions

There is middle ground, most defintiely, but a lot of the more conservative posters in this thread don't seem to acknowledge this, pereferring instead to believe that the gardai were automatcially correct to use violence and didn't use enough.

you picked me up wrong, i didn't mean we'd be better off living as we did 20 years ago, but that if we "society as a whole" had the levels of respect for gardai we had 20 years ago (and i'm sure there were bad gardai then too) maybe it would be safe to walk around town late on a saturday night, the amount of times i've seen a drunk(and a respectable looking drunk) attack a garda that was just trying to calm him down or move him on is crazy, not to mention that little scumbags going knacker drinking tell gardai to F.off and mind their own business. i don't think anyone is above the law, but i do think that it's a bit trendy now to criticise the gardai, as for the church that would be an ecumenical matter (but you're talking about 2000 years of their power being abused all over the world, much bigger than irish societies problems)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

you picked me up wrong, i didn't mean we'd be better off living as we did 20 years ago, but that if we "society as a whole" had the levels of respect for gardai we had 20 years ago (and i'm sure there were bad gardai then too) maybe it would be safe to walk around town late on a saturday night, the amount of times i've seen a drunk(and a respectable looking drunk) attack a garda that was just trying to calm him down or move him on is crazy, not to mention that little scumbags going knacker drinking tell gardai to F.off and mind their own business. i don't think anyone is above the law, but i do think that it's a bit trendy now to criticise the gardai, as for the church that would be an ecumenical matter (but you're talking about 2000 years of their power being abused all over the world, much bigger than irish societies problems)

Fair enough, if I picked you up wrong, I picked you up wrong.

Respect, though, is a two way thing. You can't just assume people will buy if because of a uniform. And a gardai baton-charge when the Gardai themselves are not under threat, will make you lose respect very quickly, even if you're watching it on TV.

Drunks giving abuse to the gardai (or anyone else, for that matter) is more of a society/alcohol issue. Yes, completly out of order - I don't think you'd find anyone who'd take the drunk's side of the story - but hardly a sign of trendy criticism of the gards.

What's a "repectable drunk" look like...?:)

greglo23

A few points to consider when discussing the Shell to Sea situation. This is the first time a private company was given the right to get compulsory purchase orders on private land. AFAIK this is also the first time this method of treatment e.g. bringing the raw gas a wshore before before treating it, has been used anywhere worldwide. given Shells environmental record elsewhere i would'nt be too pleased to have this in my backyard !!
Finally has it occurred to anyone that the licenses Shell got for these explorations and exploitations of our national resources were got from the esteemed Ray Burke lol. No doubt they were totally above board and legit as
were all his dealings with big business , ahem !!
Why cant we do as the Norwegians did and bring the gas ashore ourselves and let the Irish economy get the benefit of these ( our ) resources.

Mrs_Doyle

Well, I must say, I am surprised to see so many replies here in support of the behaviour of the Gardai.
Whether you support the protesters or not, I would have thought it still very obvious that the Gardai, once again, behaved in an incredibly unprofessional manner.
The whole thing could have been dealt with in a way that did not involved smashing a woman's front window in, while she was still in the vehicle, or dumping a man, badly beaten, into a ditch.

The shell situation itself, I don't too passionate about either way, but I certainly do feel that those people were treated very badly by the Gardai, and certainly have cause to complain about their treatment.
I do not believe that the protesters behaviour warranted the repercussions.

Stephen

They were told to move by the gardai. They didn't. They were warned that force was going to be used. They still didn't move. They then got a beating. Boo-feckin'-hoo.

Shell to shore, jail five more!

greglo23

I too am amazed at the behaviour of the Gardai. in France the Gendarmes usually stand by and monitor the situation but they agree with the peoples right to protest. When the Irish Ferries strike was ongoing they refused to move the protesters when ordered to do so. The same situation seems to apply in Italy. The Gardai are there to keep the peace and not to help out big business but what do you expect from a Fianna Fail / PD coalition but support for their friends and screw the taxpayer. Big Oil has alot to answer for when you look at the the situation worldwide such as Iraq,Nigeria,Alaska and elsewhere.

Wishbone Ash

greglo23 wrote:

peoples right to protest

Blocking public roads and prevent workers going to their jobs?

The Gardai are there to keep the peace and not to help out big business

They have a duty to prevent people blocking public roads and preventing people going to work - nothing to do with big business. They also have a duty to uphold the law - Shell won a court injunction against these people.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Stephen wrote:

They were told to move by the gardai. They didn't. They were warned that force was going to be used. They still didn't move. They then got a beating. Boo-feckin'-hoo.

Shell to shore, jail five more!

Pity we didn't have this attitude back ion 1916!

Wishbone Ash

greglo23 wrote:

Why cant we do as the Norwegians did and bring the gas ashore ourselves and let the Irish economy get the benefit of these ( our ) resources.

Because, going by our track record, we'd probably do it at a loss and thereby requiring subsidies from the hard pressed tax payer!

Chakar

Yeah I'm totally against the campaign and have debated against them.Its pretty all irrational based on safety which has been debunked as a safety report stated that the pipeline met international acceptable standards.People are basically supporting them because a small village in north west of Connacht with 8000 people don't want it in their backyard.